Kanga
Two years ago

State Development Program

Which VJBL teams get the most of their kids into SDP? Should DOCs be evaluated according to their ability to get their kids into the program?? Must be so.

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UseTaHoop  
Two years ago

My answer:
Wouldn't it be more likely to be a JDO role?

This question does have an undertone of dissatisfaction with a particular DoC. Perhaps best to discuss with the individual concerned.

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Kanga  
Two years ago

No dissatisfaction, but interested to know if clubs actually have these things as part of their KPIs (we are adjusting ours).

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+  
Two years ago

I feel it needs to be realistic to the players you have and can produce / recruit.
Maybe %'s would be more accurate i.e. if we have 6 teams in that age group but nil in the top grade it may be reasonable that you get no SDPs and the best would be get into the top top grade. However if you have 6 teams and 2 vying for spots in the top grade - yes a few SDPs would probably be on the cards.
Some clubs have a good year of players and may have up to 8 players in SDPs (depends how big the training group is)

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Grim Tripe  
Two years ago

SDP Boys
Nunawading - 11
Casey - 10
Dandenong- 8
Frankston - 7
Melbourne - 7
Hawthorn - 7
Keilor - 7
Kilsyth - 5
Knox - 6
Bulleen- 4
Whittlesea - 4
Eltham - 4
Sandringham - 2
Camberwell - 2
Altona - 2
Sunbury - 2
Coburg - 2
Waverley - 1
McKinnon - 0

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Hoopin’ in the burbs  
Two years ago

Pretty sure it's been a KPI at the clubs I’ve worked at. But think internally it should be more about the improvement of that number as age groups get older. proof of development if you like? Obviously sprinkle some realism in there too.

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Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Where's npp?

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Grim Tripe  
Two years ago

I agree +. If you have VC teams, for instance, then you should also aim to have one or two of your top players in SDP. Helps with attracting and retaining top talent.

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Phizzer  
Two years ago

Grim tripe, are those stats by clubs boys and girls? Which age groups? Very interesting.

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Grim Tripe  
Two years ago

Stats based on players listed in the announcement by BV. Boys SDP, which I assume is u16/18. Seems very skewed to me, and would be happy if I was from one of the teams at the top ... but query how it could be said there are 40 better players at Nuna, Casey and Dnong compared to some of the clubs listed at the bottom. Seems unusual!

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Former Hawk  
Two years ago

Reality is that some associations are bigger than others, some have greater voice than others, and some individual coaches are more willing to use their voice than others. None of this can be objective, other than the disproportionate numbers which does indicate an issue.

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XXXX  
Two years ago

The VNPP list is up on the BV website. Some peculiar selections and non-selections as usual.

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Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Who's missing, who’s lucky?

Reply #901929 | Report this post


XXXX  
Two years ago

I'm only going to comment on the girls as I don't know all the boys and its not fair to say who was lucky, although it is quite a few of them. A non exhaustive list of kids who performed as well or better than many in VNPP and clearly have at least equivalent talent:

06 Erin McAlary, Jelena Savic, Hannah Day, Georgia Bodey
07 Alice Maganini, Zoe Shanahan, Jasmine Perry, Isobelle Wightman,
08 Taia McMeachan, Madison Kamphausen, Charlie McKinnon, Lily Impey, Meg Cooper, Justine Walker

Reply #901930 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

So few places, not sure any of those you've listed are better than those on the vnpp list.

Likely only 4-5 out of whole group go onto represent Australia.

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XXXX  
Two years ago

I disagree with you, not all are better players right now, but some definitely are, and they are all have at least equivalent talent. It wouldn't matter if the kids in this program didn't receive preferential treatment with State selections, the fact that they do is not very motivating for the kids that aren't selected.

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Hmmm  
Two years ago

Great to see Maddy Potts selection who is a tremendous player. Potts selection at top age 18 shows selection is possible with improvement so they still have opportunity.

xxxx - Not sure any of the 06 players you mention are at same level. You've named 3xSG who IMO are not at level of Deas, McBean & Potts. And in other age groups some of others were not in state team selection last year.

Reply #901940 | Report this post


XXXX  
Two years ago

I think Deas is ahead of all of them, I don't think there is much difference between the others from what I have seen. Maddy Potts absolutely deserved her selection, I just think there are others just as deserving.

Non selection is State teams shouldn't be a determining factor, all those girls performed, when given the opportunity, at a level equivalent or better than some who were picked and all have obvious talent.

Also, why so many 06's and so few 07 & 08's.

It only matters because of the preference given to the kids who are in this program. it seems ridiculous to me to have so few and basically guarantee State selection to them pre trials. They should either widen it or not have the program.

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Yep  
Two years ago

Deas and Potts equally as good as each other. Both finished 1 and 2 respectively for points scored at the end of the regular season for 2021-22 as bottom agers. They play slightly different positions and have a different playing style. Both deserving of a spot in NPP.

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Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Most of the 07/08 talent come from other states.
Mcmechan probably the only one pushing for vnpp.

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Manders  
Two years ago

Reality is that it is all subjective, and there is no sophistication in selections. No use if data, no use of sports science, over-focus on early developers (ie, race to pubity) and just a bunch of (mainly) guys making group-based decisions which are kinda like what you see in the movie Moneyball. What basketball needs is a new paradigm where talent is properly identified separate from the BV / association construct. We are missing so many kids, who actually just find their way to more sophisticated sports such as football.

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Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

What qld are aiming to do is much better than any other state.

Reply #903133 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

Do you have details Weedy?

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XXXX  
Two years ago

They don't need any real sophistication to improve their performance significantly, just watch a few games!

I'd be interested to hear what Qld are doing too Weedy, can you elaborate.

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Hmmm  
Two years ago

Whisper is Deas to COE

Any others?

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Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

06s
Probably Metcalfe as they love bringing in centers.
Bobongie maybe another.

Reply #903222 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

Shock horror ...

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/shocking-whistleblower-claims-prompt-integrity-probe-into-basketball-victoria/news-story/15f1510c96c7d2591b5cabe38f0daa9c

Reply #905847 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

The selection of players for SDP and State teams has always been an issue. It may now get some attention.

The preferential treatment that some clubs get over others is just not right for the kids involved.

Reply #905850 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

I see it all the time in vic, not right.

Reply #905852 | Report this post


Pinch  
Two years ago

I thought QLDs HPP was the envy of the nation....

Reply #905855 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

Reposting the stats that Grim Tripe helpfully provided above.

It just doesn't stand to any reason ...

The only thing left to assume is that BV is run by the big South East Melb clubs and give preference to their own. Bad luck if you are good but come from a smaller or quieter club, or a club where the DoC doesn’t want to rock the boat …

SDP Boys
Nunawading - 11
Casey - 10
Dandenong- 8
Frankston - 7
Melbourne - 7
Hawthorn - 7
Keilor - 7
Kilsyth - 5
Knox - 6
Bulleen- 4
Whittlesea - 4
Eltham - 4
Sandringham - 2
Camberwell - 2
Altona - 2
Sunbury - 2
Coburg - 2
Waverley - 1
McKinnon - 0

Reply #905857 | Report this post


Flyers Get Wings  
Two years ago

Anyone got a copy of this article??

Shock horror ...

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/shocking-whistleblower-claims-prompt-integrity-probe-into-basketball-victoria/news-story/15f1510c96c7d2591b5cabe38f0daa9c

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Manders  
Two years ago

Not sure they need an enquire, other than to go and watch a few Friday night games and see non-SDP players consistently towel-up SDP kids ...

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MAM  
Two years ago

Can someone post article for those of us that don't subscribe to Heraldsun. i reckon it would be an interesting read.

Reply #905875 | Report this post


Hmmm  
Two years ago

While they're at it they can review the movement of players to clubs with 'state' coaches.

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Manders  
Two years ago

Here's some of it:

Basketball Australia’s integrity unit is looking into the claims, which centre on "potential nepotism and cronyism and the potential for bribery and influence peddling in the selection process of junior talent programs and state teams".

The whistleblower - who has asked to remain anonymous – said the system in Victoria was “vulnerable to being gamed and corrupted”.

He alleges “children of those with connections” get preferential treatment. Further, he says, teams are selected ahead of tryouts and coaches are choosing players they have previously coached for state teams and high-performance pathways.

Reply #905880 | Report this post


ballermum  
Two years ago

The nepotism & cronyism isn't only happening in Basketball Victoria, it's the same in other states too.

Reply #905881 | Report this post


golbet  
Two years ago

Wow that's terrible, these are kids trying to find their way. Perhaps children all should have to wear non club uniform when trying out...they do this in netball.

Reply #905882 | Report this post


ballermum  
Two years ago

Unfortunately non-club uniform wouldn't make any difference.

The players all know who gets the preferential treatment and placements in club squads as well as State/High Performance teams based on who knows who & who does what within clubs/state associations. Who you know can also work against you in some instances.



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Turnover  
Two years ago

To be fair, coaches whom coach a state team, should have watched a heap of VJBL games and know every kid in the age group before they get to try-outs.

At times you get the same old staff in positions for year on year, and if you aren't in the know then your never going to get a leg up, unless your mum or dad played/coached at a high level or you suck up to the right people... There is more politics in junior sport than in politics.

Reply #905886 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

The stats are amazing. How is it that there are 36 SDP players from 4 clubs in the South-East, and only 2, 1 or 0 from 7 other strong clubs mentioned in the list? They are not small clubs, but don't seem to be getting a look in. Makes it a bit of a joke, really. Can’t believe those clubs aren’t standing up to it.

Reply #905887 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

Shocking whistleblower claims prompt integrity probe into Basketball Victoria

A whistleblower claims Basketball Victoria's process of team selection is being influenced by nepotism and cronyism.

Susie O'Brien
December 6, 2022 - 6:58AM
Herald Sun

Basketball Australia is ­exploring allegations of nepotism, favouritism, conflict of ­interest and lack of transparency in Victorian teams.

A whistleblower with more than 40 years of experience in the game raised serious claims about Victoria’s peak basketball association in a letter to the national body last week.

The allegations centre on Basketball Victoria’s processes of team selection, appointment of coaches, operation of talent programs and acceptance of sponsorship money.

Basketball Victoria is the peak body for more than 160 associations, with thousands of players from suburban kids’ teams to state representatives.

The organisation received more than $10m in revenue in 2021, including almost $5m in fees paid by parents.

Basketball Australia’s integrity unit is looking into the claims, which centre on "potential nepotism and cronyism and the potential for bribery and influence peddling in the selection process of junior talent programs and state teams".

The whistleblower - who has asked to remain anonymous – said the system in Victoria was “vulnerable to being gamed and corrupted”.

He alleges “children of those with connections” get preferential treatment. Further, he says, teams are selected ahead of tryouts and coaches are choosing players they have previously coached for state teams and high-performance pathways.

“Players selected to state teams have the potential for AIS (Australian Institute of Sport) scholarships and US college scholarships worth $500,000 as well as professional careers,” he said.

“There needs to be a level playing field for all talented young juniors, boys and girls, who try out for talent programs and state team selections run by Basketball Victoria.”

He said one state coach picked his sons for the team, describing it as “a perfect ­example of nepotism”.

Other claims centred on coaches who also sponsored teams.

“Nothing has been done to address this,” he said. “It needs to be done now as basketball has grown into a huge and ­lucrative sport in Australia and overseas, which makes it more vulnerable than it has ever been to the risks of corruption, bribery, cronyism and nepotism.”

The letter asks Basketball Australia to appoint an integrity expert to audit the state team and talent pathway selection processes in Victoria.

A Basketball Australia spokeswoman said its integrity unit had “reached out to the complainant” to go through the ­allegations.

Basketball Victoria said it was “aware of a complaint to Basketball Australia regarding integrity in relation to recent state team selections”.

“With an unparalleled history of successful programs, athletes and coaches and the most revered high-performance program in the country, we are proud of the pathway, framework and transparent processes we have in place to ensure the best athletes are ­selected to represent Victoria,” a spokesman said.

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Dunkman  
Two years ago

This has been going since I can't remember, nsw selections years ago horrendous. The old pick my mates kid, it’s shocking but very hard to police because no one is neutral enough.

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hoopie  
Two years ago

Nice marketing spiel by the BV spokesman

In other words, ignore it until you need to be SEEN to address it, then promise to improve your procedures and sit on your hands until it blows over, then if you REALLY need to be seen to be doing something, sack some low-level numpty who's expendable or not part of the cliques anyway.

Politics 101

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Jessie  
Two years ago

the only part of this that is 'shocking' is that someone would say they are shocked by it. being from wa it is just business as usual. have a look at which club each state coach is from and then see how many kids from that club get selected. happens in every state, some really bad ones in wa. if you leave subjective decisions to someone who isn't impartial what do you expect to get? if the wildcats coach picked the league mvp and all nbl teams, you'd probably expect perth to be over represented. we have state bodies who should fill that impartial role effectively outsource the selecting of kids to volunteers with vested interests. not really a great recipe for a robust and impartial system

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Harro_baller  
Two years ago

Selection criteria for U20 Navy team posted on BV website below. Yet 8 selected in the 2023 Navy team played U18 AJC in 2022, another was an emergency.
No doubt well deserved by these athletes selected but poor effort by BV not sticking with their own selection processes and policies.


VICTORIAN UNDER-20 EXPRESSION OF INTEREST CLOSES ON Friday 4 NOVEMBER
Please note there will be two U20 Men's and two U20 Women’s teams selected.
Victoria Under-20 Men and Women will be selected first with five (5) emergencies being named for this team. Please note, these emergencies are not automatic or guaranteed selections for the Victoria Navy Blue team.
Under-20 Victoria Navy Blue Men and U20 Victoria Navy Blue Women will be selected after the main team and emergencies have been selected.
Criteria for selection into the Navy Blue team is:
• Development athletes (mostly bottom age)
• Identified Victorian athletes that have not partaken in an AJCs before
• Will benefit greatly from the opportunity to play at an AJCs
• Contributes to a healthy balance of Country and Metro athletes

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Fixedonbasketball  
Two years ago

BV should look at which of the larger clubs are under-represented, and go and offer some spots in their programme.

Reckon someone will take some legal action at some point, and force disclosure of their methods.

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Footloose  
Two years ago

Yep the Navy team selections were disappointing. With SDP, not all of the talented kids try out as they want to still be able to play footy, etc. or, they don't want to do the mandatory early morning sessions.

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Fixedonbasketball  
Two years ago

Nah mate - I think the bigger issue is that kids do try out, under the impression it would be a fair and impartial process, and then see that predominantly kids from certain clubs get in. This seems to be at the heart of the complaints (and from what I understand, potential legal action).

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Footloose  
Two years ago

This might be true also. I know of some very talented kids who have chosen not to be part of SDP. I'm not sure that this program makes anyone better, I think it’s more you 'miss out’ on being able to say you’re in SDP. And, you apparently can’t be selected in a State team, this is the stupid part.

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Edinburgh 44  
Two years ago

If you publish a clear criteria (ie the 20's Blue team which has been done this way for a few years) then you need to stick to it. It's a bit of a joke. They don't care though. I know for sure the kids went into those tryouts thinking they were a chance based on the above. It actually gives BV the opportunity to give those "under the radar" kids a go as they have in the past few 20's Blue teams and demonstrate they are impartial as everyone knows it's a Dev team.

In saying that the SDP program is actually done pretty well. Sure some kids might miss out but in the many years my kids have been involved there's not too many that should be in it that aren't

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Frisbee14  
Two years ago

It's been happening in SA forever. And it wasn't even subtle, a state coach telling kids that they would have no chance unless they transferred to the coaches club. Predominantly it was one club, superteams were created and the club spruiked how successful they were and that they had the best coaches.
Then it got a bit sneakier with a "crackdown" on poaching was instituted. It was then up to players to bring in fringe state players, can't stop kids from recruiting can they. But now members of the aforementioned club had moved onto another club and it was just like the old days, new club talks about bringing in a new era and how wonderful these new coaches were at producing talent. Fast forward a couple of years, those coaches jump ship and the club is up the proverbial river.
Not sure how to solve it at state level, just really need impartial and ethical people making the decisions, but too many egos there.

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Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Jnr n.t selections.... Hold my basketball.

Reply #905908 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Well it's been proved that it happens in all states, as I said before, how do you fix it, afl and football is the same, know someone and you are a chance.

Reply #905910 | Report this post


+  
Two years ago

there always has to be a system or process to get anywhere.

Reply #905913 | Report this post


Fixedonbasketball  
Two years ago

Hard to argue with that. Unfortunately, you also need a system or process that works and is fair to get anywhere worthwhile.

Reply #905914 | Report this post


Juice  
Two years ago

There are too many people involved in the selections process in BV to be compromised to the degree that bribery or corruption at the level that the whole system can be manipulated and would go unnoticed or called out by the coaches involved.

There are always different coaches from different associations involved in the selection process which is why selections results vary from time to time. Opinions of players are not universal to all selectors.
Plenty of athletes show up to these selections and underperform and miss out. Some just get missed like Josh Giddey and Dante Exum are an example of how kids can get missed sometimes. Anyone from any association can volunteer for the selection camps and have input.
You can't be a whistle blower unless you are inside the process which means you were complicit. So can’t wait to hear the evidence instead of just the accusations.
I don’t know a single state team or national team junior or seniors that everyone agrees on. And since it’s never unanimous support those who don’t agree cry foul instead of agreeing to disagree. Your fav didn’t make it because it’s corrupt. Smh there is no science to making everyone see things the same way.
So sometimes they will get it wrong. It happens. Somehow kids still get to college and go on to be professionals without making state teams and HP programs. If you’re talented and you work hard you can make your own success.

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XXXX  
Two years ago

If the people making decisions on selection turned up to a few games their performance would improve markedly. I think this is the core issue. I don't think there is any doubt there is bias at selections, but that is very difficult to avoid, it wouldn't have such an impact if the selectors were making decisions based on better information.

Reply #905922 | Report this post


Asthetic  
Two years ago

There are a few posts above that understand what this is really about. Mentioning the u20 state team selections, this is a disgruntled parent upset that their child did not get selected in this years team.
Some of the claims are accurate, cronyism for one has been a massive issue for a long time within the BV ranks.

Reply #905923 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

All they need to do is go and watch a series of games, rather than just rely on a try-out, which is often compromised by time and luck.

Anyway, they should after grading pick out some kids they may have missed based on their performances. After all, what happens in a game is most important.

Easy to fix, and would demonstrate that they are listening to some of the feedback. And it would be fair.

Reply #905928 | Report this post


Tuckya Shirtin  
Two years ago

Frisbee14 which SA club are you talking about

Reply #905943 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

Manders you do understand that state coaches are volunteers who have jobs, families plus other volunteer coaching gigs, so probably not quite that simple

Reply #905944 | Report this post


Frisbee14  
Two years ago

Not going to name them, except the former was regarded as the premier junior program in the state for a long time until recent years. The other club became prominent in performance recently but has seen it decline in the last year or so.
Not rocket science to work them out.
But any mention of those involved gets the threads locked.

Reply #905945 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

Fair call Footloose, appreciate it's all volunteers. But these guys live bball and not much to watch a few games, split up between them, or make Enquiries of coaches at club land. Anyway, that is what I would do (and have done in other States).

By the way, the equivalent people from AFL land (often unpaid with families etc) come and watch the talent at bball games to poach them across. Yep, that’s the lengths that they take to ID their talent, and they don’t just rely on a few hours at a try-out. Was speaking with one at a game the other week. Very interesting.

Reply #905946 | Report this post


Movingscreen  
Two years ago

"potential nepotism and cronyism and the potential for bribery and influence peddling in the selection process of junior talent programs and state teams".

Once Pandora's box is opened the lid may explode right off. Can I presume Vic Country thrown in with Vic Metro in this poison chalice.

Reply #905948 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

The way the VJBL is structured now it would be much more than a few games. 20 teams make up VC until the top 10/bottom 10 split which doesn't happen until about May. Your state team players could come from any of this 20 teams plus there will also be a some BA (mostly) guns floating around in the lower levels.
I have heard that footy just wait in the wings until bball has burned the players out from SDP, etc & then swoop on the gun (now disillusioned) athletes. But more is better right?!

Reply #905967 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

If only to highlight the issue BV has ...

- 10/22 (45%) of the u16 ECC boys come from 4 clubs in the South East

- 9/22 (41%) of the u16 ECC girls come from those same clubs

Just not representative. There are over 100 associations.

Now, I understand that they are not all the size of Nuna, Dandy, Casey and Frankston … but come on.

This starts with SDP, moves to ECC and the State teams.

That is the pathway … play for those clubs (and a few others, like Melb or maybe Knox).


Reply #905974 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

25% of registered basketball players in Australia come for the South East of Melbourne

Reply #905989 | Report this post


Juice  
Two years ago

Manders, if a kid is talented who cares what club they come from. Fair is not a part of elite sport Meritocracy is. There is currently only 1 metro kid at AIS and she is from Broadmeadows. How bout we look at the history of the SE clubs and how long they've been around. Let’s also see how many of these kids come from clubs that have NBL1 programs before you cry foul. Not all clubs are created equal. It is what it is. If a kid is good enough they will eventually get recognized and have an opportunity. Just because it doesn’t happen when they are 12 or 13 years old is not a crime nor is it the end of their career.

Reply #905998 | Report this post


Movingscreen  
Two years ago

Those still in BV programs/pathway will be too frightened to speak out and why would they, they are not effected. Those who are currently overlocked will fear reprisal and just sad for those who have been effected in the past, too late for so many who have left the sport if this is proven to be correct. Will this be an open investigation with basketball community experiences submitted.

Reply #906098 | Report this post


Hooping  
Two years ago

to save opening a new thread - the readers of this thread should know.

When (dates) and where are the Australian Champs scheduled for 2023, u20,u18,u16 and u14 clubs? Cant seem to find that information.

Thanks

Reply #906137 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

I heard U20's is in Feb in Geelong, not sure of exact dates though

Reply #906139 | Report this post


Pinch  
Two years ago

20's Geelong VIC
18’s Northside QLD
16’s Warwick WA
14’s ????? Assuming Casey VIC because they were to host the 2 COVID years

Reply #906163 | Report this post


Manders  
Two years ago

Spot on movingscreen. My experience in another high level sporting context, is that this sort of programme benefits from essentially excluding club involvement and having independent analysis including real game analysis. The stats lare damming, as are the realities if you happen to watch a few games on a Friday. The HeraldSun are into something here.

Reply #906314 | Report this post


Manders  
Last year

Just went down to watch some SDP training. Wouldn't worry too much if you don’t make SDP.

Reply #916822 | Report this post




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