Dunkman
Two years ago

Melbourne v Perth 31/10/ 22

Battle of the losers even though Melbourne scraped home last start. Two fancied teams at season start already struggling. Will home town help United? Will Manek come good, is Blanchfield still on his permanent holiday, will Goulding do what he can, so many questions and I certainly don't have the answer.
I’ll go Perth as I like Vickerman going nuts on sideline. :::))) Perth by one.

Topic #50562 | Report this topic


Another Anon  
Two years ago

Cotton cooked with a 3 day turnaround. Rillie making some concerning mistakes as HC.
Melb by 7.

Reply #903032 | Report this post


Jimmyhooper15  
Two years ago

Nobody fancied Melbourne. With that roster it was they were going to struggle

Reply #903033 | Report this post


Ballman  
Two years ago

Even with the double overtime I think Melbourne would be favoured to win.

With Perth combining some rookie mistakes by the coach, underperforming Aussie content and Manek who's shooting didn't get on the plane from the US - cant see the cats getting this one.

Cotton needs to be playing 30 minutes tops at his age.

Reply #903035 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Melbourne had Tucker telling everyone he was the best player in the league, no one left Melbourne out there top six, lots had them top two.

Hindsight is a great knowledge.

Reply #903036 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Two years ago

You might have had United Top 2 but I had them 6th and that was before SEM re-signed Zhou Qi so would've them put SEM above them.

It was pretty obvious with this roster United were going to struggle even accounting for "MVP candidate" Rayjon Tucker lol

Reply #903037 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

United feels a bit lucky to be 3-4

But if you said to me 2 months ago

- Hukporti snaps achilles in the Blitz

- Ili and Peatling miss the first 7

- Caroline and Barker miss games

I would've absolutely taken a 3-4 start

Reply #903038 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Two years ago

They are a bit fortunate to be 3-4 if they had lost that double OT game to the Hawks they would be 2-5.

Reply #903039 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

There's been 3 close wins, 1 close less, and 3 games well and truly beaten

+/- wise nowhere near a 3-4 team but we'll take it

Reply #903040 | Report this post


Jacket  
Two years ago

John Rillie has destroyed any ounce of defensive grit this team had left over.
Absolutely clueless on defense.
The Wildcats wont make the post season if this continues.

Reply #903051 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Good start by both sides, not certain why Creek got commentate.

Reply #903052 | Report this post


Jacket  
Two years ago

The game cannot flow without a foul being called every 30 seconds.
Honestly if they want to know why there TV ratings are AWFUL, look no further than the way the game is called

Reply #903053 | Report this post


SmallieBiggs  
Two years ago

For a guy that somehow got drafted, has Travers improved at all?
Still can't shoot at all and can’t really see an improved handle so far this season.

Reply #903054 | Report this post


Frisbee14  
Two years ago

All the wildcats need to win is make more 3s than their opponents. Who cares about defensive grit or umpiring. That's all the game is about these days. But then I say I will refuse to watch NBL but somehow manage to watch all their games and make snarky comments how it sucks.

Reply #903055 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

United by 10, shooting very well, cats can't chuck it in the ocean bar Cotton. Travers has been been as good as Perths defence, not very good, chuck in Blanchfield, Norton into that mix and you trail by 10. Perth would be back with hawks if not fo Cotton. Tucker doing well, Illi been good, XRM been much more team.

Reply #903056 | Report this post


Ballman  
Two years ago

maybe a bit of an early call but I think cats are a chance for the wooden spoon this year. More odds on that then winning a championship.

Reply #903057 | Report this post


Manu Fieldel  
Two years ago

RXM is the heartbeat of this team atm

Reply #903058 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Cats won't finish below hawks, maybe that’s all though. Better bring that Canadian coach back from last year.

Reply #903059 | Report this post


JT  
Two years ago

The wildcats are cooked. Not enough offensive movement, not dynamic at all. Bruce is great but to reliant upon him and much to much of him with the ball.
To easy to defend. Their defense is average at best also.
No playoffs for sure unless something changes and quickly!

Reply #903060 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

Whys perths defence so shit, well they have tried playing it this quarter, foul every single time

Reply #903062 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

That's a foul from xrm, also a charge on tucker!!

Reply #903064 | Report this post


Screeningnick  
Two years ago

Wonder what all the Norton defenders excuse are going to be for him today? You really got to feel for Bryce playing with these scrubs.

Reply #903065 | Report this post


Ballman  
Two years ago

norton so many poor drives, why not drive and dish - create for others !

Reply #903066 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Norton, drive, drive chuck it away, horrible. United been very professional.

Reply #903067 | Report this post


Another Anon  
Two years ago

I look forward to reporters not asking Rillie any tough questions after the game again.

Reply #903068 | Report this post


Jacket  
Two years ago

LOL down by 16 with 1 minute left, Rillie keeps his starters in including Cotton who just played 39 mins 3 nights ago LOL
Absolute circus this league.

Reply #903069 | Report this post


Ballman  
Two years ago

First double digit win for Melbourne this season. 58+ % shooting. Cats made these guys look good tonight.

Reply #903070 | Report this post


MD  
Two years ago

Manek dragged with 3mins to go in the fourth in favour of Wagstaff.....not a good sign for an import.

Surely he gets replaced!

Reply #903071 | Report this post


Jacket  
Two years ago

That wildcats culture which made them one of the best teams in Australian sport over the past 2 decades is completely gone.

This is a completely different now.

Dont think this team is going to bounce back.

Rillie is in way way over his head.

Phil Gould once said it takes a long long time to build a winning culture but it can be torn down within 18 months.

We are seeing this unfold on the Wildcats

Reply #903072 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

You can replace Manek, not certain going to make lot difference, it's your local content that have been terrible, that was always Perths strong points. Travers, Blanchfield, Norton, Webster, Wagstaff, not doing anywhere near good enough.

Reply #903073 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

SEG overpaid for the Wildcats and thought they could run the franchise cheaply by employing a clueless rookie GM, who in turn hired two dud rookie NBL head coaches in a row, while also being frugal on player spend. It doesn't work that way.

There are better ways to piss up $8.5mil, what utter morons with deluded visions of having a sports empire group.

Congratulations Grant Kelly you're no longer the worst owner in the league.

Reply #903074 | Report this post


Mat B  
Two years ago

United are a completely different team when they run some motion, move the ball and create shots for each other.
Even when Perth made runs, they continued to play with composure and trust.
Okwera was very good defensively and is improving at the offensive end.
Much better from Tucker today - made the extra pass, and got into position for good shots.
His defense on Cotton was excellent.

Perth are a different team to What we know them as.
Cotton absolutely works his ass off but is being significantly hindered by a lack of support.
Per the communication on both ends appears almost non -existent.
What will it take for them to turn this around?
I think they need to inside more or at least try to to create some inside/outside balance to take some pressure off Cotton.
Not sure why Webster isn't firing like he can, but they need him to catch fire.

Reply #903075 | Report this post


JoelMVP  
Two years ago

Manek has to be cut. That's it, that’s the post.

Reply #903076 | Report this post


GoldDigger  
Two years ago

"Cotton absolutely works his ass off but is being significantly hindered by a lack of support."

I was at the game and said that almost word for word to another MU member sitting next to me.

Nice for MU to win, but this isn't anything like a Perth team we've come to see as a real challenge to beat.

Reply #903077 | Report this post


djmenow  
Two years ago

Manek is too green and lost for his 1st overseas contract. Unfortunately he needs to go. Majok needs to be benched permanently. Play OBH instead at least he's shown quite a bit when he's played. We have players like Shervill and Harris who are excellent 3pt shooters on the pine while Wagstaff, Manek and LT cold as. LT is not a NBA player atm. I hate him carrying the ball. Webster is a shadow of himself. Always forcing like Norton. Easy TOs. Cotton only player who can hold his head high as usual.

SEN and Mills have ruined this team.

Reply #903078 | Report this post


Ballman  
Two years ago

The new ownership has definitely struggled with imports, seems almost like every team has picked up solid imports to the point that Manek might be in the bottom 2-3 , similar to Frazier last year probably amongst the bottom. how can a small city club like Cairns get a DJ Hoag who is exactly what we need , whilst one of the supposedly biggest clubs get Manek. So that hiring decision is on them.

What is not on them is the bad decisions made by the previous ownership. This habit of our Australian content disappearing on the offensive end was something we even so towards the end of Gleesons era, credit though they had some good import decisions like Terico, Plumlee and a solid defensive structure to overcome the poor shooting outside of Cotton.

Other than Travers, the previous ownership filled up the roster with ageing journeymen for the most part and we are now paying the price when they cannot match younger and more athletic teams we are seeing now.

Much of this roster was here when Jack owned the club so we cannot say SEN is 100% root cause, they have just had to play catchup in a market where asian teams are poaching our better players and other clubs have more money to compete on recruits. Competing for a smaller pool of candidates.

What is disappointing they didnt go for a Next Star when we badly needs some athleticism in this roster. The game today we looked like The washington generals playing against the Globetrotters. Too slow, cant jump, cant stay in front of the player penetrating the key and so on.

Unless we can organically improve the Shervilles, Harris and other DPs it could be a tough few years.

Reply #903079 | Report this post


Moose 67  
Two years ago

Get rid of Manek, replace him with a high quality PG who can create. That way, Bryce will have a bit more space. Travers can play the 4 makes them more mobile.

Elite 1, Elite 2, Blanchfield, Travers, Thomas.

Already better. But will the budget allow for an elite PG? I feel like they have the likes of Shervill, OHB, Harris, Majok on the roster because they cost basically nothing. Cotton is great but I reckon he has bled the budget. Manek is the cheap 3rd option fresh out of college. The Travers experiment at the 1 is hurting the team dynamic. Travers is learning on the fly in a high level league and I'm guessing Rillie has no choice. PG should be a leader, not seeing it.

Reply #903080 | Report this post


Bws1blood  
Two years ago

A total rebuild should commence next year

Wagstaff
Norton
Blanchfield
Majok

Are all where they should be ona. Bench

But a startin 5 consisten of 2 or 3 of tjode guyd wont get it done

Nortons lost a step and his confidence, the other guys are to limited, athletically, offensively and defnsively at this stage to be rzckin up such large court time..

Truth be told play Shervill abd harris, and give them the opp to see xhat you have and develop gor tje rest of the year

Playerd are livin off of rep from yesteryear.. And SEN has to now be firm, they are the bzd guys if they benched or cut those guys to early.. It was a damn if yoi do daln if you dont being new owners.

If it was JUST about culuture and effort, those guys would be playin harder and givin more.. Its plain as day those guys dont have it any more

The lack of a legit 5 ( i like tayshan thomas heart BTW) is a issue because those guys arent gettin second chance opportunities, room to drive or get easy look as there is no big there thats a threat aroubd the basket

Zuniv should start for norton while he recovers from whatever injur issue he is dealong with.

Reply #903082 | Report this post


Bws1blood  
Two years ago

A total rebuild should commence next year

Wagstaff
Norton
Blanchfield
Majok

Are all where they should be on a. Bench

But a startin 5 consisten of 2 or 3 of those guys wont get it done

Nortons lost a step and his confidence, the other guys are to limited, athletically, offensively and defnsively at this stage to be rackin up such large court time..

Truth be told... play Shervill and harris,

give them the opp to see what you have and develop gor the rest of the year

Playerd are livin off of rep from yesteryear.. And SEN has to now be firm, they are the bad guys if they benched or cut those guys to early..

It was a damn if you do, damn if you dont being the NEW owners.

If it was JUST about culuture and effort, those guys would be playin harder and givin more.. Its plain as day those guys dont have it any more to be carrying a teams hope for a Title.

The lack of a legit 5 ( i like tayshan thomas heart BTW) is a issue because those guys arent gettin second chance opportunities to make errors or shoot poorly, room to drive or get easy look as there is no big there thats a threat around the basket

Zuniv should start for norton while he recovers from whatever injury issue he is dealong with.

Reply #903083 | Report this post


Cooked  
Two years ago

Defending Norton - really beating up on the guy. 11 points - drew 6 fouls, isn't that his job to drive. Everyone is making mistakes - you feel sorry because Cotton has to play with him - wonder what Cotton thinks of that statement. Defender - not many of those he guards have a good night when he is guarding them. He gets the hardest assignments in the league (a one point guards) I would imagine to do that and then live up to the scoring expectations hard. He fouls most likely because he seems to be only guy having a crack defensively. How can you have 5 fouls in this league be loosing and players walk off the court not having one. Put someone on their arse. Last couple of games bit off. But all players have off nights. I guess the interesting observation for me is the best fans in the league - how is that determined, kick the team when down, kick the players when down. I think he is a leader, contributor and team first guy. Mistakes are made by all, the reason for the results. Everyone is playing below par again the reason for results. They say going to Perth used to be intimidating imagine what it is like for the players walking out in front of the best fans in the league knowing you guys are trashing them as a team and individually. When you could actually have the opposite effect and go back to being the most intimidating place to play. I am expecting a beat up - I am a Hawks Supporter just saying (yes we have our own problems).

Reply #903086 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

"Get rid of Manek, replace him with a high quality PG who can create."


Couldn't disagree with this more. Need to fix the rebounding and defence. What they need is a high-quality 4-5 who can shoot in Manek's place, a Jarell Martin prototype. Not easy to get, but trade in Martin for Manek and this team is a contender.

Reply #903091 | Report this post


AngusH  
Two years ago

It was a big gamble rolling the dice on a first year pro like Manek. For every John Mooney there are a dozen Maneks, and Mooney at least was a high quality rebounder which generally will translate if a guy can stay out of foul trouble. Manek is an average rebounder for the position even in college. I honestly think that if they stick with him he will end up being a 10ppg 5rpg type of guy which would be OK if the locals weren't stinking it up. I think Thomas is good at the other import spot, but the Wildcats need a 2A type talent at the 3rd spot - agree that Martin would be perfect, but that's why he's earning around 3 million a year in Israel.

Apart from his Shaqtin a Fool moment on the fast break I thought Okwera showed some real signs for United. I think he'll be a quality starter eventually.

Reply #903092 | Report this post


Manu Fieldel  
Two years ago

They can't defend. Address that before addressing the scoring

Reply #903093 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

Yeah I really like Okwera too. Huge potential.

Reply #903094 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Martin is coming off the bench in Israel, playing around 15 minutes a game, yes good player and scorer, not great defensively. He's not your answer or available.

As Manu said, sort out your defence first.

Reply #903095 | Report this post


Bws1blood  
Two years ago

They kant defend ad manek id a loability.. Blanchfield is old x slox.. Szme for jesse and norton is a combo of onjired and aged.

Thats why i said azm rebuild is essential in off season.. Thode guys are adequate bit players.. Not ideal for logging lajor mins at this point

If you have so many holes defensively u at least need another scoring punch, oref a big

Solution for interim

Give zunic a bigger role at PG ( until norton os healthy) ..cut manek.. New import.. Bench blanfield

If they cant find a import big, play travers or blanchfield along side majok or thomas

if there is. No changes. Play thomas at 4

Love Majok to the 5



Reply #903096 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

Ili immediate impact. Welcome back

XRM remains excellent- Uniteds MVP so far with daylight 2nd

Tucker finding his role - no longer forcing it. Developing ways to score off others, make reads in the offense, and continues rebounding like someone 6 inches taller

This season might be a Cat catastrophe until they move Manek.

Reply #903097 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

There's real symmetry with United and Perth actually

Both hired an import 4 who's really struggled

Both have a veteran 4 man whose playing a far bigger role than anticipated (Barlow and Wagstaff).

Neither team looks like a serious contender right now, but either could be, with the right upgrade in that position

Reply #903098 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

I would add though, the trend for Perth is worrying, its an open question whether Rillie can coach

Vickerman at least is trying new things, new lineups, and the team looks to be headed in the right direction despite the roster limitations

Reply #903099 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

Agree re the Barlow / Wagstaff being asked to do too much. Obviously Melbourne can fix that by replacing Caroline, while for Perth if they could get that Jarell Martin prototype, a big who can stretch the floor and rebound, they'll look a lot better pretty quickly, especially as Thomas gets his legs under him.

Reply #903101 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

BTW, in Israel Martin is averaging 12ppg at 50% and 8r in 20 minutes per night on a very deep Maccabi Tel Aviv team where no one is averaging more than 23 minutes.

His role has been smaller in Euroleague where he's averaging 5ppg at 42% and 3rpg in 16 minutes.

Reply #903103 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

Jarell Martin would look good in United colours too

Reply #903105 | Report this post


Mat B  
Two years ago

Agree with your observations LV.

Much better synchronised offense. XRM said in post game interview that Dean challenged them to move the ball more.
The benefit was obvious - bigger gaps, better looks, more involvement....and on the other end, tighter defense.
Illi's presence is invaluable.
If they can build on last night's performance by maintaining that style and intensity, and consolidate the 4 (whether by getting Caroline going, or getting someone else), there's no reason why they can't contend.

In Perth's case, their lack of communication was so apparent that (I know it's hypothetical) they'd really benefit from a Damien Martin type on the floor in terms of leadership etc.
At present, they appear slow and out of rhythm.
Is it the coaching, player personnel or both?
What I don't understand is, how have they not developed young Australian talent to fill the hole of their aging roster? Or do they have some, but haven't had the opportunity or circumstances to transition them into games?

Reply #903106 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

"Jarell Martin would look good in United colours too"

Haha indeed! But not even United's pockets are that deep!

Reply #903108 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Two years ago

Martin doesn't offer much defensively United can do better than him. He was made to look better than he is on a loaded Kings team with Adams & Cooks leading the way.

Reply #903114 | Report this post


Ballman  
Two years ago

Its amazing to think that someone of Martin's calibre being used so sparingly. Must be a lot of depth in Israel. 8 mins is DP territory in Australia.

I guess its the old case of take a big pay check to sit on the pine versus playing a lot and having more fun but without the pay packet to suit.

Reply #903115 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

16 minutes in euro league, not 8. It's one tough competition, defence matters, not Martins strong point. Adams is the same off the bench.

Reply #903117 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Wetzel playing for Berlin, three peat champions of Germany is also coming off bench

18.7 minutes, 10p, 4.3b

In euro league

15.3 minutes, 6.3p, 4.3b.

These are seriously though competitions with 18 teams in each.

Reply #903118 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

What I don't understand is, how have they not developed young Australian talent to fill the hole of their aging roster?

Sadly I feel as if SEG has completely overlooked this, they are incompetent.

Reply #903124 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Two years ago

Ballman,

He's not being used sparingly in the Israeli league just reduced minutes in EuroLeague which is common. A lot of Euroleague teams have budgets 10 times or more what NBL teams do so they often buy up and horde talent even if they're superfluous to their needs.

Most imports know they're on borrowed time and want to make as much money as they can before the music stops so aren't as concerned about riding the pine for a bigger paycheque unlike say a local player might.

Reply #903128 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

Gleeson only been gone for just over a season, so he would have responsibility in this. They let a few go to other teams that now are doing ok. Swani, Dech.

Reply #903129 | Report this post


Jimmyhooper15  
Two years ago

Brady Mabel's don’t might want to book a seat for his son on the return back because I doubt he will be in Perth much longer

Reply #903130 | Report this post


Wild Willy  
Two years ago

The pipe is a wonderful thing ^

Reply #903140 | Report this post


koberulz  
Two years ago

What I don't understand is, how have they not developed young Australian talent to fill the hole of their aging roster? Or do they have some, but haven't had the opportunity or circumstances to transition them into games?
It's difficult to both develop young talent and maintain an elite core, because if you do too good a job that young talent goes elsewhere for better opportunities. Dech, Swaka Lo Buluk, etc might not be good enough to justify breaking up the Wildcats core, but they can go elsewhere and carve out enough of a role to take the next step.

Reply #903144 | Report this post


Bws1blood  
Two years ago

I think its the coaching.. Rotations, line ups also show a lack of feel for game time situations, adjustments etc

Manek, blacnhfield, etc bein slow and lack of any offznse outside of cotton is hampering his coaching some what

Owkera, dench, reath, majok, pinder

There has been plenty of local talent which could have been oicked up over the past few years and thz cats arrogance brought them here

That was before SeN... Shxt marshall nelsonn would help

Reply #903145 | Report this post


Mat B  
Two years ago

Good point Kobe 're Dech & Wani-Swaka.

It begs the question though, why the current bench isn't being used much at all, especially when the main guys are playing huge minutes and are aging.

Reply #903151 | Report this post


LLKK  
Two years ago

It's well known in nbl circles that Perth’s dp program and effort and incentives for the players is probably the lowest quality.
They get some that end up being borderline roster guys, but when looking at all the spots occupied over the years they haven’t produced much. A lot of sbl/nbl1 west players.
Couple that with the fact they were hugely successful, they haven’t capitalised in that area.

Throw in retirements, change of budgets and a new gm who is a rookie to it all, and this is what you are left with.

Reply #903158 | Report this post


koberulz  
Two years ago

Whatever's going on with player development can't possibly be the fault of the new regime, they've not been in power long enough.

Reply #903159 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Two years ago

Even though on the face of it an Adelaide might have developed more players than Perth over the past decade or so keep in mind one team was swimming around in mediocrity for a lot of that and the other team was busy winning championships or being content with losing GF's in a bad year. It's pretty difficult to do both things at the same time.

Reply #903166 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

Vickerman does both pretty well

Reply #903191 | Report this post


Bws1blood  
Two years ago

Plenty of scorned wabl, sbl former players to this day who feel disgusted by perth and its PD

Believe that bought rings by securing top talent from abroad snd neglected local tqlent

Reply #903192 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

Genuine question, what young talent has Vickerman developed? They recruited Newley, & had to bring Barlow back from retirement, plus they seem to steal other clubs players/imports because they have more money

Reply #903206 | Report this post


Mystro  
Two years ago

Ili was no where near the player he is now when he played for the Breakers so some credit does need to go to Vickerman.

Reply #903207 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

JLA, Jack White, McDaniel. Okwera right now.

McCarron transitioned to PG. Not youth development but development. Ili's shooting has improved. CGs defense too.

Reply #903208 | Report this post


LV  
Two years ago

Peatling- signed as a DP. Became a starter on a championship team as a DP

Reply #903209 | Report this post


Knowall  
Two years ago

DV had a major impact on the development of Thomas Abercrombie and Alex Pledger in the nz domestic league before cracking the breakers program

Reply #903210 | Report this post


Mystro  
Two years ago

Most of the credit for Abercrombie & Pledger's development rests with Judd Flavell who mentored them in the Breakers Academy under the Blackwells.
That program he ran spat out some pretty talented players.

Reply #903211 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

Vickerman played a big part in individual development work at the Breakers. They employed a European devt specialist who brought a new approach and Vickerman ran with the ball driving individual development after that.

Reply #903214 | Report this post


Knowall  
Two years ago

Disagree Mystro Abo and Chief major improvement when they were playing under DV at Waikato. Flagella has been credited in the past for work that Mark Jackson put in place at Westlake Boys

Reply #903217 | Report this post


Knowall  
Two years ago

^ Flavell

Reply #903218 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

It's rare that one person can take credit, I'm sure Judd and Deano would both credit each other for the work they did.

Reply #903219 | Report this post




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