Last year

Top Domestic Leagues Globally

How would you guys rank every domestic league?
Let me hear your top 6

1.) Spain - ACB
2.) Germany - Easy Credit BBL
3.) Russia - VTB
4.) France - Pro A
5.) Greece - HEBA A1
6.) Italy - LBA Serie A

Thoughts? Where would NBL rank ?

Topic #51143 | Report this topic

Weedy Slug  
Last year

I'd say #5 these days.

Reply #918234 | Report this post

Weedy Slug  
Last year

Turkey probably up above the bottom 2

Reply #918235 | Report this post

Last year

What is a metric you are comparing these leagues by?

Reply #918239 | Report this post

Last year

Adriatic? Is the VTB still what it was post-Ukraine invasion?

Reply #918242 | Report this post

NBL Fan  
Last year

"What is a metric you are comparing these leagues by?”

Just off talent & eye test ... just wanted to gauge on how others thought about which leagues rank where to each other

Reply #918243 | Report this post

Last year

I feel like the NBL on balance, if you consider league-wide, is as good as any of those 2-6

Granted Spain is definitely superior, and granted some of those other leagues will have powerhouses with budgets that blow any NBL club away.

Reply #918246 | Report this post

Pasadena 72  
Last year

I think there's a case to be made that the locals in the NBL are nearly as good as any leagues, but the amount & quality of imports in some of the big Euro leagues push them ahead of the NBL.

I think our league has a bit more parity across the teams, in other leagues with no salary cap the big clubs are well ahead of our best, but the low end of their leagues would also be down the bottom of our league.

Reply #918249 | Report this post

Last year

It depends a bit what you value tbh

If you value the best of the best, NBL probably goes down hill quickly given I doubt any NBL side competes with any Euroleague side.

But there's an argument to say NBL players tend to get picked up by NBA teams at a high rate.

Plus, if something like a 20% to a quarter of the NBLs talent has NBA experience, that’s a solid amount of high level talent and it’s tough to penalise the NBL because the top 1-2 teams of various leagues are substantially better than our top 1-2.

I wouldn’t blame anyone putting the NBL anywhere from second to 6/7/8 to be honest

Reply #918251 | Report this post

Last year

Vtb has slipped since the bans on Russian entry into euro competitions, Spain obviously number two, Germany gets ranked high due to the number of international players from all over that play in it, plus the six import rule.
Turkey, has some really strong clubs but weaker ones
Greece, again strong top end but not all great.
Aba league same.
Nbl probably somewhere between six and ten
Russia-vtb still got some top end teams but less money these last few seasons.

Reply #918256 | Report this post

Last year

Very interesting views, which I assume are mostly based on what people have heard, rather than experience working in the industry or playing in said leagues. I have seen multiple agents say the NBL is the second-best domestic league in the world, I agree.

Reply #918312 | Report this post

Last year

As soon as you mentioned 'agents', you shot down some of your argument. Agents will only say what benefits them and what they think people want to hear (which again benefits them). Similarly with anything LK or his cohort says.

I think I’d go with Dunkman’s list, with the proviso that games are played differently between the various leagues, and the playing speed and style and rule interpretations will suit some players more than others. If an NBL median side played a Turkish median side, for example, the winner might depend on rule interpretations.

Reply #918313 | Report this post

Last year

You're entitled to your opinion, and as I said earlier, I’m sure you’ve never worked in or played in any of these leagues. To say the NBL is anywhere near 6-10 is ludicrous, but carry on. Agents will place players to enhance their career opportunities...follow along, you may learn the industry.

Reply #918318 | Report this post

Last year

Exactly, we are all entitled to our opinions and as hoopie said mid table teams could be decided by ref interpretations. Obviously money comes into it, when the smaller market teams in the top leagues in Europe spend around three times what top nbl teams pay should tell you something. The nbl is a very good competition, certainly not second after nba, most Spanish sides and there is eighteen of them would certainly not be afraid of the bottom six teams of nbl. Real Madrid and Barcelona if in winning mode would smack all. Madrid spend more in one season than a team of kings quality does in eight, ten and there are others throughout Europe.

Reply #918322 | Report this post

Weedy Slug  
Last year

The spend to talent ratio and the overall competitiveness of the league makes the nbl highly respected. We are certainly top 6 now an could be top 4 by 2030.
More of the top Asian players in our league and increased views from all over Asia, we could see more money flow to nbl and an increased cap to 4 mill by 2030, inturn allowing more $$ to be spent on bigger imports or keeping the best locals at home. Expansion to atleast 12 teams pretty much a certainty by then. Atm, it is looking like Gold Coast is a real possibility next year and Canberra the following.

Reply #918323 | Report this post

Last year

I mean, nobody except the NBL are ranking the NBL above Spain.

But otherwise, I think NBL has a fair claim to top 4-6

Reply #918324 | Report this post

Last year

4 to 6, 6 to 10, all much of a muchness. It's not 2nd which is being told to us regularly.

Reply #918328 | Report this post

Last year

Even though its a few years old now, Fran Fraschilla did a list ranking the leagues outside of the NBA.

If you just use the Domestic leagues in order its

Spain ACB
Turkey BSL
Russia VTB
Germany BBL
Italy Series A
France Jeep Elite
Greece A1
Australia NBL

Id say that list is still largely accurate, which has NBL at around 8th

Sure Russia isnt quite as strong with their situation but still plenty of quality imports and players over there, but the rest of the leagues would likely be around the same mark and have teams in the Euroleague, and atleast those teams would be spending atleast 3 times what the NBL does on their rosters.

So sure a top NBL team may be able to beat a lower ranked team in those leagues, but if you say top NBL team V top European team who is in the Euroleague i dont think it would be particularly close, at the end of the day when these teams have single players earning more than the NBL salary cap they are going to be better.

So I think the range of 5th to 10th is pretty accurate and its definitely not top 2 or 3 in the world.

Reply #918329 | Report this post

Last year

A lot euro league players are also turning up in the nba, including a few stars, France has got number one pick this season. Russia is still reasonable but lots good imports left to join other leagues and Turkey hasn't quite got the coin it had, so I believe have slipped a bit but overall @ Jonno I agree with you. Again the nbl is a very good completion but most of the top euro league teams would win against them.

Reply #918331 | Report this post

Last year

All the different leagues people are arguing about here are basically the same standard, with tiny variations. Obviously NBA is one, Euroleague is two, then there's a bunch after that.

Next season, after a game hang around and talk to the imports who have played in the better European leagues (which is most of them) and ask them how the NBL compares.

Invariably in my experience, and I've asked a lot of players this question, the answer is that it's just as tough as those competitions.

Reply #918335 | Report this post

Pablo Escobar  
Last year

Spot on Jonno. Very easy to believe the self generated hype about the NBL when Oz basketball is so isolated.

Reply #918337 | Report this post

Last year

"The best" teams in a league or Euroleague aren't a comparison. It's solely on domestic competition. When it comes to the NBL pay scale, when you compare payments per game played and length of season, the NBL stacks up quite nicely. I'm encompassing all factors, including game day experiences, broadcasting, opportunities, and quality. The NBL pound for pound is in the top echelon of leagues, and it attracts high-level talent.

Reply #918398 | Report this post

Last year

Euro league teams play in their own domestic competitions as well, no one is doubting the quality of nbl, the point is it's really not number two, five to ten is about right.

Reply #918414 | Report this post

Last year

There is very little difference between 3-10. NBL is comfortably in that mix.

The talk around budgets is misleading, because European teams are paying the local market value for European players, where NBL team are paying the local market value for Aussie/Kiwi players.

When it comes to imports, the pathway to the NBA along with lifestyle/ game style / pay reliability factors means each year high-quality imports choose the NBL over good European offers.

While the marketing slogan "best league outside the NBA" is simply not true due to the nature of the Euroleague, don't let that take away from the fact the NBL is very much a world-class league.

Reply #918423 | Report this post

Last year

Reply #918437 | Report this post

Last year

I'm in the top 10 Roger!

Reply #918441 | Report this post

Last year

Greece #1 for violence.

Reply #918696 | Report this post

Last year

^^^^ lol, yes it was a bit hot overnight.

Reply #918707 | Report this post

Last year

Johnno is spot on - depth over there is significant especially Spain, Turkey and Germany.

Australia rates due to the strength of players and style of play but $s spent over there is significant

Reply #918910 | Report this post

Ski 61  
Last year

As someone who regularly follows European basketball, you guys are seriously overrating the level of the German League. The top 10 best national leagues/regional leagues in Europe are:

1. Spain
2. Greece / Turkey (about the same)
4. Italy
5. Russia (it's dropped down quite a bit, due to the war situation)
6. Germany
7. France / Adriatic (about the same)
9. Lithuania / Israel (about the same)

Reply #919210 | Report this post

Last year

Agree re Germany, but I'd say it's been a long time since Greece was one of the best European leagues. Used to be a powerhouse but then the Greek economy nosedived and it stopped being a destination league.

Reply #919229 | Report this post

Ski 61  
Last year

The teams in the Greek League are spending more money now than they were before the Greek economic crisis. That and Covid caused big budget cuts, but those days are over. The clubs are spending more now. Especially since the league instituted rules for minimum budgets and for paying players.

And they also instituted new financial rules for being able to register for the league, which means each club has to meet a whole bunch of financial demands before they can even register to the league.

Plus, the government's sports authority decided that the clubs need their own arenas, and the revenues from them, while not having to pay fees for them. And the clubs are getting more TV revenue now, since they started a league wide revenue system that the clubs split.


all get revenues from their arenas now, without having to pay fees to use them. Olympiacos is also going to be given control of their arena soon. And the arenas are being expanded and remodeled as well. Like Olympiacos' arena is going from 11,700 capacity to 15,000 capacity. Panathinaikos is also expanding and remodeling their arena. Peristeri, Panionios, Kolossos, and Promitheas are getting new arenas, and/or have plans to do so. Karditsa and AEK already got different arenas. Aris has plans to expand their arena.

The clubs are making more money and spending more. Olympiacos offered Sasha Vezenkov more money than the Kings paid him. Now they are trying to sign Niko Mirotic. Panathinaikos already signed two of the most expensive EuroLeague free agents (Matias Lessort / Luca Vildoza) and are said to be offering some of the biggest contracts in Europe right now.

Even a club like Peristeri has been signing well known players in Europe in the last year (Leo Kaselakis, Dimitris Agravanis, Marcus Denmon, Miro Bilan, Sylvain Francisco) - players that are said to be in the €300K euros net to €600K euros net salary range in Europe. Olympiacos and Panathinaikos have their budgets actually higher now than they did before the Greek economic crisis.

While Peristeri, AEK, PAOK, Aris, Promitheas, Panionios, and Kolossos all supposedly have total budgets (includes the taxes, so not just the net salaries) that are somewhere in the €3 million euros to €5 million euros range, and all of them except Kolossos and Panionios are playing in the secondary European-wide leagues (BCL / EuroCup). Kolossos and Panionios have plans to do so also.

So at the current time, that's two clubs in the top level European league, which is EuroLeague (Olympiacos & Panathinaikos), and five clubs in the secondary European level FIBA BCL and EuroCup (Peristeri, AEK, PAOK, Aris, Promitheas). So 7 clubs in total that are playing in one of the major European leagues. And only one that is playing in EuroCup (Aris), that these days has probably fallen to third, in terms of the level of competition, as the other 6 are all in either EuroLeague or FIBA BCL, which are probably the top two leagues now in terms of level.

Reply #919473 | Report this post

Last year

Only 3 Greek teams made it to the regular season of the BCL this season and only 1 made the Round of 16, while Panathinaikos were near the bottom of the Euroleague. The Greek league isn't yet of the same standing it once was in Europe.

Reply #919475 | Report this post

Ski 61  
Last year

Panathinaikos doubled their budget for next season. Also, Peristeri had a ton of injuries in BCL. Otherwise they would have advanced. In 7 games against Panathinaikos it was Panathinaikos 4, and Peristeri 3, and one of those Panathinaikos wins was by 1 point.

They had several key players injured early in the season when they lost a playoff in BCL. By the end of the season, with healthy players, Panathinaikos could just barely beat them, playing 5 against 8.

Reply #919599 | Report this post

Last year

Ski 61 where do you rank the NBL?

Reply #919617 | Report this post

Last year

The resutls last season are consistent with those in 2021/22, where only one Greek team was in Eurocup and finished bottom of their half of the draw, Panathinkaikos was down near the bottom of the Euroleague, and no Greek teams made it to the Round of 16 in the BCL.

So while you may well be right the new investment in arenas and revenue sharing might bring about improvements, the evidence isn't yet on the court to suggest the Greek league is back up the top in Europe as it once was.

Reply #919622 | Report this post

Last year

Greece like nbl, certainly in top ten but more towards the back end. Aussie hoopla did a story on this a few months ago which was worked out on international players and imports. It was a fair system.

Reply #919625 | Report this post

NBL Fan  
Last year

I take it back, Greece is top heavy with the Euroleague teams but other than that ... the middle of the pack & end of the standings are average

1) Spain
2) Germany
3) France
4a) Turkey
4b) Russia
6) Italy
7) ABA
8a) Greece
8b) NBL

Reply #919629 | Report this post

Last year

Weighted ranking of each nation based on the performance of their member clubs in European competitions:

1. Spain
2. Turkey
3. France
4. Germany
5. Greece
6. Italy
7. Israel
8. Russia*
9. Lithuania
10. Serbia (part of ABA)

Reply #919632 | Report this post

Ski 61  
Last year

From watching games from those leagues regularly, I just can't buy the French or German leagues being as good as the Greek League. Honestly, I don't see them as good as the Italian League either, but I won't argue that one, since it's closer.

But I think it's very clear the Greek League is better. You can't just compare the teams in the top half of the league. If you take the bottom halves of those leagues, then it's not comparable at all.

German and French Leagues have 18 teams, and bunches of them are terrible. The Greek League only has 12 teams in it. So the Greek League has much higher standards for it's worst teams, than the leagues in France and Germany do.

The roster of the worst Greek team:


The roster of the worst German team:


The roster of the worst French team:


The worst Greek club is definitely better. It had players that by themselves, probably had more salary than the whole team of those German and French clubs.

Also, we can compare the level of 2nd divisions and 3rd divisions. While France has a strong second division, that is one of the best in Europe, along with the second divisions in Spain, Italy, and Greece, the German second division is terrible, and nowhere near as good as the Greek second division.

But then if we go to the third divisions, Greek third division is light years better than the French third division. You have clubs from Greek third division that can even beat Greek first division teams.

Panionios beat three Greek first division teams in the preseason, and they only lost to AEK Athens (FIBA BCL team), by 93-88, in the Greek Cup. Panionios were in the Greek third division. Mykonos, another Greek third division team, was almost as good as Panionios, and took them to a full length 5 game playoff. Those teams in Greece's third division had €3 million euros budgets. Any German or French third division team would get blown out against one of the biggest FIBA BCL teams (AEK Athens), and not be nearly as good as they are, as Panionios was in the Greek Cup.

And as for AEK, they had a budget of €12 million euros, and then because of covid, they had a big budget cut. €12 million euros is the same budget as the three EuroLeague teams with the smallest budgets, and it's up at one of the two highest budgets in FIBA BCL, along with Malaga.

AEK, now that they have their own arena, is supposedly going to slowly work back up to a €12 million euros budget in the upcoming years.

Reply #919646 | Report this post

Last year

I watch basketball from all over the world and yes occasionally some leagues have bad teams that get relegated. After Spain, the general consensus is German, French, Italy, as the next best, Russia previously but lots players not going there now. Greece and Turkey are in the mix, you can throw a blanket over all of them. It's all suppositions anyway so let’s just enjoy the basketball.

Reply #919648 | Report this post

NBL Fan  
Last year

It would be better if you compared the 12th seed of every league since the Greek league only has 12 teams

The 12th seeds French/German teams have better rosters

Also understand Greek has a bigger budget but just because someone is getting paid a better salary doesn't always mean they’re better. 70% of players that are getting paid a lot just have better representation or resume from years before

Reply #919649 | Report this post

Basket 91  
Last year

Things to consider

Top teams and bottom teams
How even the league is
How many imports are in the league
How good are the local players
Domestic comp or multi country comp
Do teams in the league play in other competitions so they get rested

Reply #919650 | Report this post

Last year

After seeing the imports that have played in the NBL1 I'd say NBL1 would rank within the top 3 , well with the exception of NBL1 east that’s a weak league for the bulk of the teams

But Europe has so many levels and many cross over , basketball is huge over there

Reply #919653 | Report this post

Last year

As a rough measure of talent in each league, and an attempt to use some sort of data, I had a look at how many of each leagues top 50 scorers have got NBA and/or Euroleague experience

By no means a perfect way to rank the leagues, but just a rough measure of the top end talent in each league,

The results are

Spain 30
Turkey 29
Russia 27
Greece 21
Australia 21
Italy 19
France 14
Germany 9

Reply #919662 | Report this post

Last year

I think this shows that Ski61 has some point about the level of talent in the Greek league being better than German and French league, also the fact that at the top end atleast Olympiacos out performed all German and French teams by making the Euroleague final.

Also shows that the NBL has probably improved and got more talent in the league than a few years ago, even though still not the top 2 in the world like the LK likes to claim.

Reply #919663 | Report this post

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