Wang whipper
Last year

2023 FIBA U19 Womens Basketball World Cup

Tournament runs 15-23 July in Spain.

Australia play Argentina, France and Spain in the group.

Australian team is Paige Burrows, Isobel Borlase, Tayla Brazel, Sophie Burrows, Jayda Clark, Rubi Gray, Tess Heal, Isla Juffermans, Jessica Petrie, Nyadiew Puoch, Saffron Shiels, Ruby Vlahov

Where do you predict we finish the event?

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

3-6

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Think Loughridge, Ananiev and Crawshaw were unlucky not to make it, would have had them getting silver/bronze with those 3. Very tough group but doesn't really matter too much post first stage. Finishing 1, 2 or 3 gets us a good crossover with Germany, Mali or Taipei, all winnable games.
Pretty easy run to 1/4s and even to semis, from then on it’ll be tough.
Quite a few teams have some very big outs due to injury, but so do we.

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QuokkaWoylie  
Last year

Be good to see how Borlase and Puoch work together, they should both be able to step up.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Looks like everyone will have to move up to play a bigger position
I'm guessing s5 will be

Heal
Clark
Borlase
Puoch
Juffermans
+
Burrows
Shiels
Burrows
Brazel
Petrie
+
Gray
Vlahov

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Shotblocker  
Last year

They are so n a deep pool, be lucky to not finish last in that pool which would see them between4/6

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Pinch  
Last year

Is it just me or does Juffermans stats seem inflated due to her inability to finish on the first attempt.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Good early signs with the gems beating usa in a warmup tournament. 80-76.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iixEcAkOhPI

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

S5 was

Pg Shiels
Sg Borlase
Sf Brazel
Pf Puoch
C Juffermans

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SixersFan  
Last year

Wow considering we were down by 17 with 5:40 to go in the 4th it is a very impressive way to win. We out score them 27-6 during those last 5:40.

Quite a controversial score by Shilds with 23.2 left. She was passing it in from the baseline, throws it off the Americans back, never establishes herself back on the court before she catches the ball and then scores. Am I wrong on this play? I thought a player had to have two feet touching before catching the ball.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Borlase was excellent... the stand out.
Puoch, Brazel, Clark, Shiels, Petrie were good when on.

SBurrows was ok but struggled at times with the pace of the game.
Juffermans held her own strength wise but had trouble finishing over athletic usa team, particularly in the first half.
PBurrows lack of exp showed at this level but did her best, moved the ball well and got better as the game went on.

Gray couldn't keep up on either end.
Vlahov unfortunately looked completely lost and you’ve got to question how she made this team.

Heal DNP
Petrie injured before the half, hopefully not serious.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Spain beat Aus 63-62 in game 2.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Pre WC tournament.

All results

Spain beat Aus 84-72
-
Spain beat Aus 63-62
Spain beat Canada 69-58
USA beat Canada 58-49
Aus beat USA 80-76

2 games left

Aus vs Canada
Spain vs USA

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SP  
Last year

Looks like it's going to be a competitive Under 19 World Champs. Great for the sport.

Borlase's ability to finish is so impressive. Played some solid defence too.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Yep, when you add France also. Mali apparently good too.
Should be mighty close.

After watching all the games..
Loughridge is such a big loss to this team and I think crawshaw would have helped us alot on the boards and protecting the rim. Think we will only use 8-9 players for the majority of the WC.

Those who have had years of exp in a pro setup are the ones thriving in this pre WC tournament(not just the Aussies). Outside of those pros, Clark has been very good most games -soon to be apart of the capitals setup.

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LC  
Last year

How David Herbert is preparing the Gems for the FIBA U19 Women's World Cup

Above all else, he values selflessness in his young charges. "We've picked players that can play in a team, that will play in a selfless manner, and give up a good shot for a great shot," he says. It’s almost time to see if those theories are right and all the hard work at training and on the NBL1 circuit has paid off.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Credit to the other countries basketball federations who took 15-16 players to pre WC tournaments before actually selecting the squad.
Determining the best players and covering any injuries.
BA unfortunately we're not one.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Aus(Borlase/Heal DNP) beat Canada(DNP 3) 71-59

SBurrows and Petrie hitting everything from deep.

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Pinch  
Last year

Petrie has definitely improved her shooting in Canberra over the last couple of years.

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+  
Last year

what's up with Heal / Borlase ? sick / injured ?

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+  
Last year

weedy - Mali is on the up in many basketball areas - might well see more of their players in higher level international comps

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

USA beat Spain comfortably in the final game 75-58.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Not too many changes to WC teams rosters 1 day before WC.
Looks like Canada, France, Italy, China, Japan have a few new additions in the last week.
Talent change or injury replacement.


Noticed they have also inflated vlahovs height from 6'0 to 6’3 and Puoch height from 6’1 to 6’3.

https://www.fiba.basketball/world/u19women/2023/team/Australia#%7Ctab=roster

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SP  
Last year

They measured Puoch as 6'2" at the Nike Hoop Summit, which I would consider to be accurate.

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LC  
Last year

Australian Gems ready for 2023 FIBA U19 Women's World Cup

"With a team full of rising stars, the Gems are set to provide Australian basketball fans a glimpse into the future at the U19 World Cup."

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SP  
Last year

It's bizarre how the #2, #3 and #4 ranked teams ended up in the same group. I'll be happy if the Opals split the France-Spain games.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

aslong as we beat Argentina, we will have a good chance of going deep.
A crossover with group B, just have to avoid usa.

USA, Spain, France, Canada look like the only ones with the potential to beat us.
The amount of top tier players missing from these teams gives us more of a chance.
Japan and Mali maybe the only ones who could suprise.


With Shiels looking to play alot at pg, not sure why you would bring 3 more (Heal/Burrows/Gray) when the issue for this team is rebounding and outside shooting.

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hoopie  
Last year

I agree, SP. it doesn't follow the usual way they select groups, unless there are changes to rankings we don’t know about yet (or 'agendas’, if I was being cynical).

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

just unfortunate we have ended up in a group with the 2 top euro teams.
Only because spain are the hosts it ended up like this.

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Bluey  
Last year

can we watch these games on Youtube for free?

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PlaymakerMo  
Last year

Yes. Livestream for Spain vs Aus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF02yaZndXk

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Bluey  
Last year

thanks Mo

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Red84  
Last year


"With Shiels looking to play alot at pg, not sure why you would bring 3 more (Heal/Burrows/Gray) when the issue for this team is rebounding and outside shooting."

Here i would cite style of play. Shiels is not a strong passer, and her choices tend to retard ball movement in offence. Not the sort of player who creates for others, nor does she leverage their talents. Too individual. Good player though.

Reply #920057 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Yeah but you still have 3 others...

Burrows can play d and move the ball but can't score.
Heal can score, semi facilitate and play ok defense.
Gray, I’ve only ever seen have two good games. Coe quotas?.They did drop Twidale, Rotunno and Henderson, all three performing better in nbl1, probably 3 others in nbl1 04/05 that have been good too.
Brazel has also handled the pg spot at ajcs at times, so too Clark for Coe when others injured.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

If they had to take a Coe player, Harvey was doing better than gray all season as an 06.
It seems asthough you can have one good training session in camp and end up a sapphire or gem.

Reply #920059 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Disgraceful first half performance.
Disinterested from the beginning, Herbert just letting it happen.
Great effort on D from Spain, what a shooting display also.
All pgs for aus can't handle any pressure.

Reply #920063 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Good 3/4 from Aus although it looked like Spain took the foot off the gas.
SBurrows with a few 3s

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Juffermans exposed at this level, lack of athleticism and mobility won't see her become the premier opals centre some people thought she would be.

A bit of a comeback by Aus, not enough to cover the shellshock of the first half demolition by Spain.

Spain win 83-68

Borlase and Puoch turnovers galore.
Burrows good in limited minutes.
All the pgs struggled, Gray DNP.

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PlaymakerMo  
Last year

Australia had zero defensive impact on Spain: no ball pressure, passively switching every on and off ball action, small breakdowns leading to Spain playing with flow in the first half.

It's also concerning that apart from Borlase making something out of nothing, we have no way to exploit switching defenses. Juffermans should theoretically provide an option there, but she barely played with our insistence on switching everything. Petrie similarly cannot defend in this scheme.

S.Burrows, Heal and Brazel chipped in nicely at least.

Spain completely lost the plot in the 3rd: frustration offensive fouls and dumb fouls in transition leading to free throws for Australia, and stagnant offense off the back of those possessions. At least Herbert elected to throw in a delay press which disrupted Spain a little, but why not do this in the first half?

Spain are the better team and Australia looked to be lacking cohesion. With Herbert supposedly bringing a defensive focus, I don't agree with how he's approaching this tactically.

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hoopie  
Last year

And France will be tougher still. Fingers, toes and eyes crossed for the girls

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

France didn't look as good as Spain imo, the first half of Spain.
France missing malonga and the other post and 2 guards but still very strong.

Hard for Australia to keep a top #3 ranking I reckon much longer, both the countries above pumping out highly rated prospects where we might have 1 or 2 elite players per team.

Both Carrion and Fam for Spain are 2006 and will be at the next u19s.
2006 gen for france were fantastic at last years euros.

Reply #920072 | Report this post


Red84  
Last year

Just adding to useful observations of Weedy and PlaymakerMo. I like to dissect Aus V Spain games because i rate the coaching of Spanish junior players (not just in this game) more highly than Australia. Games like this highlight deficiencies in how we train our juniors.
Regarding our poor Q1:
(a) A broken clock comment - Our offence relies excessively on drives all the way to the basket and we have selected girls who do this well. We don't look to shoot the mid range. Spain also drive, but guards are more inclined to find a cutter from the weak side, kick out, or put up the mid range. For Shiels, Puoch 95% of the time they will drive to the hoop no matter what defence they encounter. This results in either a spectacular basket (looks great in instagram) or (more often) poorly formed, bailout shots that are cleaned up easily by Spain
(b) Weedy - further to my comments regarding Shiels, look at the first possession of the game. As mentioned Shiels loves to drive. Problems arise when we have a low post in place (ie Isla Juff.); when Shiels drives straight into Isla and into congestion. Result, turnover. If you watched NSW Country in the past 2 years, this was repeated too often. Ditto - their interaction in the U17 worlds under York. This should have been corrected earlier. It wasn't. We don't appear to learn.
(c) I greatly admire Sophie Burrows. She is an elite shooting guard or wing; she is NOT a pg. She should not take more than 2 dribbles at this level. Has length, but is too slow.
(d) Play to local conditions. Spain relies heavily on aggressive guarding at the horn. There is a culture among European FIBA refs to protect marque players. Joycte from LTU benefits greatly from such protection. Not sure where this comes from - but there is a similar officiation standard in soccer which most European FIBA refs are familiar with (compared to rough and tumble officiation standards in Aussie rules or rugby that many of our girls are familiar with!). So FIBA refs set a high standard on screens set mid court or outside the perimeter when leading Spanish/French/LTU guards are playing. So I felt sorry for Jess Petrie who was called for an illegal screen she set in Q1. It was a BS call. But it did the trick - it discouraged our bigs from setting similar screens. Notice soon after, the Spanish defended intensely higher up the court; we started turning the ball over. There is a double standard here - the #10 Spanish big engages in moving screens most of the time - but that takes place during pick and roll action where the Euro FIBA refs are more lenient.
(e) Apart from when Isla is on the court, Spain tasks more players to contest offensive rebounds than does Australia. The intent to grab ORB is impressive - Spanish guards putting up mid range shots will look to grab a ORB on a missed shot. They don't ball watch or run backwards after shooting.
(f) Run of poor no calls that benefited Spain between 6min 44 sec to 2min 50 sec interval in Q1 which contributed to Spain's lead. First was a clear cross court violation by a Spanish guard to control a loose ball, where the no call resulted in points for Spain. Then there was no foul call on a drive by Spanish #4 with Heal defending, which saw #4 throw out her arm and sending Heal flying; result was points for Spain again. Then - and do look at this - at the 2min 50 sec mark. A Spanish guard wanders inside the zone, positions herself near the charge circle. She stays in the zone for 7-to-8 seconds. Directly under the nose of the ref. No call. Isla defends her, calls out to Borlase to defend #10 at the high post. This causes Borlase to switch her opponent from a guard on the perimeter to #10 high post. The perimeter guard has all the time in world to measure her 3, which she executes.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Had a glance on the nbl1 page and noticed crawshaw had another great game.
29 / 15 / 5 / 2

That's 18 / 9 / 1 / 2 / 2 avg for the season, think it’s a real shame she was overlooked for this team after ajcs. Such a big improvement over the last 6-9 months after being flames dp.

The only 2 04/05/06 players with better stats currently are
Puoch 25 / 3 / 8 / 2 / 1
Juffermans 17 / 2 / 10 / 1 / 1, better fg %





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hoopie  
Last year

I haven't seen it yet, Red, but such a great analysis makes me want to asap.

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CoachGirl  
Last year

Some nice action v Argentina this morning and a good chance for minutes for some who may not see any/many more from here in. Can someone explain eligibility? I see that most of this team are 2004, but Shiels is 2006. Does that mean others born in 2006 don't get an opportunity to play at this level, or could she play twice?

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

With Shiels, She can play next u19 tournament if we qualify.
This tournament is not just for 04/05.


Borlase with 8 triples v Argentina. 80% from 3

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

France next, a win or loss.
Shaping up to be Mali or Germany in the rd of 16.

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SP  
Last year

It's great to see Borlase hitting threes. Hope she does it more in the pros.

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Red84  
Last year

SP - did you notice after Borlase hit her first 3, she turned to her opposite number (Lopez I think) and gave her an earful? Maybe I saw this wrong. Anyhow it appeared to be a real send off. Channeling my inner Kane Cornes "I loved it". I've seen Borlase in juniors for the past 5 or so years - every team she's on, the SA team kicks the NSW team butt. She was always a fearful presence (for her competitors) on the court, but very focused, controlled and aggressive in her actions, but did not offer much lip. That was done by others, who shall remain nameless...

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PlaymakerMo  
Last year

I've rewatched the play Red and don't believe that's the case. It looks like she turned to locate her matchup who ran out of her field of vision. It would also be out of character for Borlase as you mentioned.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

It looks like the Usa and Spain are the 2 favoured to make the final.
Look a class above early on, Tier 1.

Tier 2
Australia, France, Mali, Canada, Japan, Lithuania, Czech republic

Tier 3
Argentina, Germany, Chinese Taipei, Italy, Brazil, Egypt, China



After 2 games, Player rankings for aus imo

#1 Borlase
#2 Puoch
#3 SBurrows
#4 Brazel
#5 Petrie
#6 Juffermans
#7 Clark
#8 Heal
#9 PBurrows
#10 Shiels
#11 Vlahov
#12 Gray

Reply #920167 | Report this post


Red84  
Last year

Spot on Weedy. I back Australia to beat France and I give them every chance of overcoming Spain if they meet again in the final. They played a shocker Vs Spain in the pool game 2 days ago- I expect them to learn from that game. We need to shoot more, drive less, screen more, and bring a more confident can do attitude to the contest. Unfortunately, as I outlined in my earlier post - the refs played a role in assisting Spain in their last meeting. Herbert has to make adjustments to game style (see my post) to account for this.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Wouldn't mind giving Brazel a shot at pg with Clark, Borlase, Puoch and Petrie in the S5.
6th woman burrows with the license to shoot against the opponents second unit.
Unfortunately we don’t go very deep, lucky we have a rest day.

Can already see by the minutes played we will not see PBurrows, Vlahov or Gray avg 10 or more minutes throughout the tournament. Looks to be mainly an 8 player rotation with 3-4 only used in blowout games or if in foul trouble.

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Red84  
Last year

Brazel's soft turnover in the backcourt in last minute of Spain practice game last week did not endear me to her. I'm still trying to get the measure of her.
Clark has always been competitive - I have always liked that about her. But her decision making and finishing has been poor of late - she always drives into congestion and fluffs the shot. She moves the ball well and is secure under pressure - as a stop gap point guard she will be useful. But for me, I want to see more screening up the court - without attracting fouls - and greater preparedness to shoot, as a complement to the driving. That is a job Jess Petrie is well suited to.

Reply #920186 | Report this post


SP  
Last year

Ball control was Australia's big downfall against France. They shot decently and France were terrible from three, but you are not going to win games with a 27-11 turnover count. Australia plays Mali in the first game of the elimination round.

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Hmmm  
Last year

How does that get called a jump ball?

And a lack of a true PG / floor general obvious flaw - is that Loughridge if not injured?

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Pinch  
Last year

Shit call on the jump ball but how do 3 coaches and 12 players not know/ask where the ball is in bounded??

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Not unexpected, like I said Brazel should be handling the ball.
Heal off the bench.
Shiels and burrows aren't doing anything and gray is a no show.
Juffermans and Petrie together ain’t going to work either, too slow to contest. 1 or the other.
Clark hasn’t contributed much all tournament.

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Hmmm  
Last year

Pinch - was thinking exactly same thing!

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Hooping  
Last year

That was a horrible jump ball call, potentially changed the outcome of the game.

I am totally stunned that Heal is even on the team with her performances thus far. How on earth does she even start. She cant defend anyone. She cant defend up the court, cant defend in the half court. She either gets beat for a layup or beat and a rotation happens leading to an open shot. Cant dribble the ball up the court, especially on her left hand. Also isn't a leader on court. 3 point shot is poor. Essentially she is short and slow. Teams are just trapping her with the ball now and she coughs it up and attacking her on defence. Clearly the slower half court NCAA game is more her go but even those games will show she isnt great on defence and not a great perimeter shooter. Do the coaches not review the games. Herbie must be a huge fan.

They look much better with a taller line up, the ball moves better and defensively can switch without giving up mismatches. They looked really good with Clarke running the point in the previous game.

I just then checked stats and Heal -13 in 16 minutes, just to reinforce. Leave her on the bench and they will instantly be a better team. Then work out the guard rotation from there and give them some confidence to play.

The smaller burrows, is much better defensively, quicker, actually applies some pressure to the ball handler. On offence she passes the ball quicker, doesnt take 10 dribbles to go nowhere like Heal does. Seems to be stressing now over lack of court time.

Very surprised that Rotunno not selected, much better defender, quicker, more vocal leader, better 3pt shooter. Dallas being injured obviously hurts.

Shiels was indecisive.

Inability to execute on the last play was poor.

Borlase playing 38+ minutes a surprise, and only 2 3pt attempts.

Brazel, Juffs and Puoch were generally effective.

Is there a defensive points given up per possession per player stat?

Some big challenges ahead now.

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Red84  
Last year

Depending on how how strong Mali is - and that is hard to tell - the loss in the France game probably did not materially harm our chances of medaling. The Aust V Mali game is probably the pick of the round of 16 - as either Aust/Mali appear strong enough to medal; whereas the outcome of the other matches appears more predicable. The win by France means they face the US in the semi-final. Good luck with that. Our loss means we likely face Canada in the QF, which I am happy to take - and then Spain in the SF. While we had a hard time in our pool as it contained France and Spain, and now we face a strong African team, we want to play against quality opposition to gauge the quality of our junior talent; lessons learned here should be reflected in our pathways training.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Mali are quick, strong, athletic but the issue with them has always been coaching/structure and shooting. It's always helter skelter...

Heal was said to be a better starting pg than Loughridge by many on this forum prior to u18 asia champs. I think they now realise that was probably a mistake and even after winning wcc newcomer of the year, it proves that some ncaa d1 conferences are pretty terrible.
We have only seen 1 good player succeed post wcc, Nicholson.

Like others have stated, they had Twidale, Rotunno and Henderson as other options but they were not selected.

Hall even as a triple bottom ager would have added something but unfortunately u16 asia was the priority.



5’6 Loughridge (inj) > 5’6 Burrows(Boomers DP)
5’6 Rotunno speed/defense > 5’9 Gray(COE)
5’9 Twidale nbl1 north ypoty > 5’9 Heal(StMarys-NCAA)
5’11 Borlase
6’0 Clark
6’1 Brazel
6’1 Burrows
6’2 Ananiev 40% 3 pt shooter + better passer/defender > 6’2 Shiels(COE)
6’2 Puoch
6’2 Crawshaw rebounding/slashing/rim protector > 6’2 Vlahov(Perth DP)
6’2 Petrie
6’4 Juffermans

That^ it is a much better side Imo.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Rd to the final

Mali R16
-
Brazil or more likely Canada 1/4
-
Likely Spain 1/2
-
Likely USA final

Reply #920283 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Last year

Ludicrous jump ball call. In reality it's one decision over a whole game, but that was unacceptable given the made layup from Borlase was waved off as a result. To compound the issue, the refs then cost us the second timeout by signalling the inbound would be taken from the baseline, placed the ball there during the timeout AND appeared to confirm with the Aus coaches that it was a baseline inbound before they huddled. The comedy of errors that is FIBA refereeing never ceases to amaze me.

I'm with you Weedy on most of those team changes.

What stands out to me is the selection of CoE scholarship holders, only for them to DNP or barely hit the court over others that have been consistently productive. This is wrong on so many levels in my opinion. There were other capable players left out as a result.

Mali actually looked quite structured and skilled in the quarter I watched of them vs USA. I'd still rate our chances against them, but it will be a very interesting matchup.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

My bad.
St Marys 23/24 = vlahov - was Perth dp
Santa Clara 22/23 = heal - was Boomers dp

Others
Burrows - boomers wnbl dp 22/23
Gray - Sacramento State ncaa 23/24
Borlase - lightning wnbl 22/24
Clark - capitals wnbl 23/24
Shiels - fire wnbl 23/24
Brazel - lightning wnbl 22/24
Burrows - Syracuse ncaa 23/24
Puoch - flyers wnbl 22/24
Petrie - Nebraska ncaa 23/24
Juffermans tbd

Others I mentioned
Rotunno - flames wnbl dp 22/23
Ananiev - Portland ncaa 23/24
Crawshaw - Long Beach State ncaa 23/24

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Red84  
Last year

Weedy - I generally like your team with one change

I have been observing LuLu for many years, and while she possesses notable attributes, her passing and decision-making skills, which are crucial elements for a point guard at the national level, fall short. Against lower-ranked opponents who are not familiar with her playing style, LuLu can be highly effective. However, when facing stronger competition, she tends to overdribble and falls into traps easily. Additionally, she often drives into congested areas and takes too many poorly formed shots. If possible, I recommend reviewing a tape of this year's U20 AJC semi-final between QldS and NSWM, a team coached by Tom Garlepp. You can also watch some old U17 World Cup matches to assess LuLu's performance. The point guard position is a key role that requires utilizing the ball effectively and leveraging the talents of others. In this regard, I prefer Brazel or PBurrows. As for outside contenders, Hannah Wickstrom rarely disappoints in big games and possesses a feisty attitude. However, I have concerns about her coachability, and she heavily relies on her right hand, which may need to be addressed when playing at a higher level. On the other hand, Caitlyn Martin from NSW displays high energy, puts significant pressure on defenders, and is definitely worth considering.

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Blues67  
Last year

The easy fix within the team, reduce the minutes of Heal and Shields and run Brazel more at the point. Plays with considerable more composure than the other two, bigger, better passer and outside shooter. She started the game well and then was hardly sighted in the second quarter when France got on top of us.

Heal is the perfect example of getting to where she is by playing physical and bullying opponents at state level, unfortunately you need some form of IQ to play the point at international level and she lacks it.

Petrie is getting hunted on the defensive end, France took her to the post and got easy buckets out of it in the first half. Looking close to unplayable in the remaining games.

I wish the coaching group would tell Puoch on the odd occasion to stop driving into 2-3 defenders, she's playing predictable basketball. Certainly a talent but lots to learn if she wishes to reach her potential.

Hope Borlase’s previous back injury holds up, she’s going to have to carry this team.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Fair points on lulu but she is far ahead of those taken. Clearly has gotten better in nbl1 this season. Ending up in the pac 12 also a good sign.
Wickstrom is a slashing guard and not much of an outside shooter.
Martin although tough is sort of like burrows, high work rate but never one to fill the stat sheet.

It's a pity Loughridge could not make it, if the tournament was in august/September, she probably could of.

Reply #920309 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

About Half way through the tournament

averages..
Points/rebounds/assists/steals + rating Imo


Borlase 35m 17/5/4/2 - 8/10
Puoch 30m 15/5/2/2 -7/10
Juffermans 23m 8/8/1/0 -6/10
Brazel 22m 9/2/2/1 -6/10
Heal 19m 5/3/2/0 -3/10
Petrie 17m 6/6/2/1 -6/10
SBurrows 15m 7/2/2/1 -6/10
Clark 14m 3/3/1/0 -4/10
Shiels 12m 2/3/1/0 -3/10
Vlahov 6m 2/2/0/0 -2/10
Gray 6m 0/0/1/0 -2/10
PBurrows 6m 0/0/1/0 -3/10

Reply #920324 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Last year

If Borlase is a 8/10, what has Puoch done to earn a 7/10? She's averaging 39fg% and 4.7 topg thus far. Same goes for Petrie as a 6/10.

Reply #920326 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Altering shots and getting in passing lanes...
Her direct opponent has the lowest fg%

Reply #920328 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

That's puoch^

Reply #920329 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Last year

Out of genuine interest, is that a stat you're quoting or an observation? Her length and athleticism definitely has an effect defensively, but I question her conceptual understanding.

For example, I recall France's first three scores being a direct result of her being outworked or not being in a position to help.

Reply #920330 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

That is a legit stat. I watch the same game 3 times and try to focus on just 2-3 players at a time.
Clearly she has alot to work on, her high turnovers come from that penetrating drive where she is about to make a decision on what to do next, No direct line to the basket and she struggles, thought pops into her head(drive through contact, stop pivot or dish), loses focus just prior too, ball slips out of right hand... that's the majority of her turnovers.

Reply #920331 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

R16 - First 4
Czech Republic beat Italy 92-84
Lithuania beat Egypt 86-64
Japan beat China 75-58
Canada beat Brazil 89-45

Reply #920340 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

Herbie saving his time outs for next week.

Reply #920341 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Looks like we a gassin out 5-6 players.
Started off ok but we look tired atm.
Defending way off the 3 point line and packing the paint- we are winning the rebound count but unfortunately they are hitting a few wide open 3s.

Brazel starting at point with just 1 to.
Petrie and Juffermans getting put together is not helping.
Clark cannot finish this tournament, missed everything.

Reply #920342 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

Terrible, terrible game coaching. From 1st Q up 8. Should have held up last possession for 1 shot didnt, goes other end for a Mali score going into the break.
Then Mali go on a 10-2 run in about 3 minutes, with Aussie turnover galore. The response from Coach was nothing. Mali suddenly got belief.
Borlase looking gassed late in 1st, but no breaks. Herbie only used the 1 time out.

Sub rotations just disappeared. Clark looked good starting with Brazel, missed a couple of easy shots, but athletic ability needed. Then once she got subbed out I dont think she got back on. Same with Shiels.
I thought Herbie was foxing early games, now it just seems like a bunny in the headlights. No in game adjustments, slow to read tempo, no subbing strategy.

Aussies with 1 - defensive foul for a whole half.

Hoping for a better 2nd half.

Reply #920343 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

He certainly going to let them die of exhaustion.
When you can't trust 4 other 'pgs’ to handle the ball...

Reply #920344 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

5 points down, 1/4 to go...
Got to give it everything.

Reply #920345 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

players need to do better though, that Petrie defensive effort at the end of the 3rd was poor. Borlase 7 turnovers.

Need to flash a player into the high post on offense. It is like they have never seen a zone before. Zero inside touches.

Reply #920346 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Germany beating France also...

Reply #920347 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

8.40 last quarter, if ever a team needed a time out.

Nothing, coach is just lost.

Assistant coaches - done nothing.

Reply #920348 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

Time out finally at 7.40. Wow.

C grade coaching effort now. Probably be his last tournament.

Reply #920349 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Say so, if they finish outside the 8.

Reply #920350 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

The minutes the s5 are playing, absolutely nuts...

Reply #920351 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Cmon , grind out a win...

Reply #920352 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

They are so buggered, can't even get back to defend after a bucket.

Reply #920353 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

missed free throws have hurt.

yes 4 players will end up playing 35+minutes.

Reply #920354 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

need petrie in to hit some late 3s

Reply #920355 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

This should test Herbert, they are in major foul trouble, let's see what he does...

Reply #920356 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

maybe put most athletic team on to get a steal or foul

Reply #920357 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

now isla fouls out with more poor coaching. it is just really poor.

Reply #920358 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Credit to Mali. Good win for them, they will vs Canada.


Borlase with 8 turnovers.
4 players 0 minutes and 1 player just 4 mins

Reply #920359 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Probably the last we see of Juffermans and many others in an aus uniform.
Long term maybe only Borlase and Puoch will make it to senior level.

Reply #920360 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

The players on the bench were great for the whole game, supportive cheering energetic. lead by Shiels.

Garlepp would have game coached better,(as would 50 other coaches in Australia) Herbie better with the soft coaching skills.

Too many turnovers. The control of the game was effectively handed over 2 minutes into the 2nd quarter.

Players were totally run into the ground. Scared to make any changes.

Sigh.




Reply #920361 | Report this post


Hooping  
Last year

They still have 3 more games, next up Brazil.

Reply #920362 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Maybe time to scrap coe...

Reply #920363 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Germany ahead going into last 1/4 v France.


Looks like a usa vs Spain final for sure.

Reply #920364 | Report this post


Blues67  
Last year

Another 25 turnovers smh
Going by AJCs this past year, the U17's will struggle to protect the ball as well.
Aussie basketball is a real turnover-fest of late and it’s not good viewing.
A real crossroads moment coming up for BA, continue down this path of promoting players that bully their way to the basket at a lower level or identify players that show composure under pressure but are not the best "athletes".
Too many passengers on this Gems team

Reply #920365 | Report this post


Blues67  
Last year

Agree, scrap the COE, money better spent adding more Aus camps to the calendar, identify more kids and not just a select few. Widen the net I say....

Reply #920366 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Dam, france grind out a last minute win v Germany.



Final 8
Mali v Canada
France v Japan
Spain v Lithuania*
USA s Czech Republic*

*probably

Reply #920367 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Don't have an issue with Coe aslong as they don’t have minimum quotas and they start getting in proper basketball trainers. Herbert nor Graham are able to help them with that. Lonergan is past his use by date, has to move on.
Also don’t select kids unless they are a proven elite talent with senior opals potential.

Reply #920368 | Report this post


Blues67  
Last year

Like to know the % stats of how many AIS / COE graduates went on to -

WNBL
Opals
WNBA

Reply #920369 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Years ago it was like 6 of 12 make it to the wnbl at some point.
Looking at the last decades scholarships, it appears that number is still about right.

Reply #920370 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Couldn't tell you % to wnba or % opal.
It’s 85%+ jr n.t.

Reply #920371 | Report this post


Red84  
Last year

Having the CoE is useful to retain and develop young talent located in the regions. There is also this notion that BA wants to develop a playing style which is inculcated in CoE athletes. The preference for CoE athletes in national team selections arises from 2 factors - 1 A sense that those who join CoE programs have demonstrated a greater sense of commitment; and 2. A belief that CoE athletes have been more immersed in BA preferred style of play.
Now this preference can only be justified with regards to results achieved. The 2004-2006 cohort have been selected and groomed subject to a playing style that departs from that practiced by standard setting France and Spain, and has been found to be uncompetitive. Ball movement and turnovers have been recurring problems with this cohort. Posters point to individuals "being the problem" but i reckon much of the problem lies with the systems our girls are executing.

Reply #920373 | Report this post


SP  
Last year

I think the Under 17s are obviously more talented than this group so I don't expect this level of performance to become a trend. I agree that talent development and strategy needs to be reviewed in light of this defeat.

Reply #920375 | Report this post


Juice  
Last year

Dallas was hurt but was Tabitha Betson not available?

Reply #920376 | Report this post


hoopie  
Last year

Good post, Red.

I'd add C - CoE athletes MUST be chosen for national teams because it would embarrass BA if all that money was spent on players who 'didn’t quite make the grade’, with the added risk of losing funding and its impact on the staffing levels and privileges within BA.

Reply #920377 | Report this post


Hmmm  
Last year

I don't understand how they can get TEAM selections so wrong. They're all extremely talented athletes, but if you're not going to play them - DONT pick them. 4 plays DNP and 1 at 4 minutes = selection failure.

Reply #920378 | Report this post


hoopie  
Last year

My thoughts too

Didn't FIBA have Aus ranked 3rd in the world, and now we’re playing for 9th - 16th? A bit of a difference in there. Were those not selected due to injury THAT critical to our results?

Reply #920380 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Hands are tied...
12-13 players at the Coe, the costs associated only to then pick 12 others outside of the program?… ain't happening.
It’s a balancing act for the selectors, it’s never the best 12.



Look ahead to the next U19s… the 2006/2007 group.

COE
Harvey
Deas
Bobongie
Shiels
Bird
Somfai
Metcalfe
Portlock

Apart from Somfai, would anyone above be a lock for next u19?
Bet ya bottom dollar we will see most of them at this years U17 oceania.

Reply #920381 | Report this post


Bluey  
Last year

Loughridge is a massive out. Has anyone watched Mali's other games? Just curious if they played this zone in previous games or have they kept it hidden, saving it for us?

Reply #920382 | Report this post


LC  
Last year

+1 Red. I think our offensive system in place (Flow) has been found out and countries have been able to easily defend against it. This has led to so many turnovers on forced drives into the paint.

Time for a change up IMO.

Reply #920385 | Report this post


SP  
Last year

Has anyone watched Mali's other games? Just curious if they played this zone in previous games or have they kept it hidden, saving it for us?


Australia don't have a good outside shooting team. It should not be a surprise that they played a zone.

Reply #920387 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

41% from 3 is pretty good...
It's the 99 turnovers, the decision making and the lack of ball movement.

Reply #920388 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Having a deeper bench would have been good too.

Reply #920389 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Last year

Between Puoch, Brazel, Borlase, Burrows, Clark and Petrie, we should have enough outside shooting to bother teams.

Our offensive structure didn't suit the group and is seriously dated. Very few of the better-coached AJC teams are running Flow concepts nowadays, and NBL/WNBL teams have mostly been transitioning away from it also.

These structural flaws were highlighted when Mali went to the zone and we were passively running Pistols action, never forcing two defenders to the ball, rarely hitting the foul line or short corner, which resulted in bombing threes without an advantage being created. Playing 4-out, 1-in versus a 2-3 zone allows the defense to essentially match up and never have to shift...

Defensively our style of play is insipid. No wonder our guards struggle to handle pressure: we apply none ourselves, and therefore won't be challenged sufficiently in the training environment!

I feel for the athletes, and not for the coaches or BA. This is what we deserve.

Reply #920390 | Report this post


SP  
Last year

Borlase and Brazel's shooting luck (they don't normally shoot that well from outside) is doing a lot of lifting. After them and Sophie Burrows, there is limited shooting. Jessica Petrie is trying to become a stretch post, but she's not quite there yet.

Ball control was definitely the biggest issue with this team. I think the offensive system is a part of the problem, but you also didn't have any good offensive initiators in this group. I think I stated it when the team was announced, but it's an odd collection of players.

Reply #920391 | Report this post


Billy Bob  
Last year

How many talented kids never even started basketball from younger ages with the availability of girls footy from a young age now?

This will become the normal for us as the years go on. We will have holes and lack of depth in our pathways and players coming through because of this.
We will always have great top talent due to our participation and culture of development in the sport, but our volume of truly elite will drop as some will never start the journey as footy is now running alongside.

Reply #920407 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Has anyone noticed when things go good for BA, they post on social media within a couple of hours.

When it goes bad, they don't post until days later.. I guess to cut down on potential criticism or possible abuse.

Reply #920416 | Report this post


+  
Last year

SP Brazel is an excellent shooter

Reply #920419 | Report this post


sec  
Last year

Weedy, BA haven't advertised the gold medal 17 girl’s on their website as yet...

Reply #920427 | Report this post


one8urner  
Last year

Surely Herbert will be out as CoE HC after that.

If a similar result happened at Boomers or Opals level both Sandy and Gorj would be gone.

Reply #920432 | Report this post


hoopie  
Last year

You have to wonder whether BA's social media approach is deliberate or incompetent or what. It seems very inconsistent to me.

Reply #920440 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

They did put the u16 asia champ winners post up on Facebook soon after.
Pick n roll have regular updates. BA probably think that's enough.

Reply #920441 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Aus beat Brazil 91-60.
Finishing in top 12 atm, aiming for 9th.
Egypt next...


Final 8
France beat Japan in OT
USA easily beat Czech Republic

To come
Spain v Lithuania
Mali vs Canada

Reply #920553 | Report this post


LC  
Last year

Australia's group opponents Spain and France both made top 4.

Reply #920566 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Spain v Canada - closer game than pre WC but Spain at home should take it.
USA v France - usa easy, France havent been that great.


About what was expected so far with Aus really the only team not meeting expectation.
Sucks because We beat both usa and Canada in pre tournament, lost to Spain twice.
Will hurt our ranking big time finishing 9-12.

Reply #920575 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Aus beat Egypt. 70-45
Aus vs Germany for 9th.


Semis
USA beat France. 80-57
Spain beat Canada. 77-70

Reply #920589 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Aus beat Germany 81-73, another poor game tbf.

Canada beat France in OT, 80-73.
USA edge Spain in hard nose thriller, 69-66.


Final Standings

1-USA (Gold)
2-Spain (Silver)
3-Canada (Bronze)
4-France
5-Mali
6-Japan
7-Czech Republic
8-Lithuania
9-Australia
10-Germany
11-Italy
12-Egypt
13-China
14-Brazil
15-Chinese Taipei
16-Argentina

AS5
Carrion 06 - Spain MVP
Hidalgo 05 - USA
Edwards 06 - USA
Fournier 05 - Canada
Lacan 04 - France


Tournament averages / rating Imo

Borlase 33m 15/6/4/2 -8/10
Puoch 29m 15/5/2/2 -7/10
Juffermans 25m 10/7/1/1 -6/10
Heal 23m 8/4/4/1 -5/10
Brazel 22m 7/3/2/1 -5/10
SBurrows 17m 7/3/2/1 -5/10
Petrie 15m 6/4/2/0 -4/10
Clark 14m 3/3/1/0 -3/10
Shiels 11m 2/2/1/0 -2/10
Vlahov 9m 3/2/1/0 -3/10
Gray 7m 3/0/1/0 -2/10
PBurrows 6m 1/0/2/0 -2/10

We look to be falling behind on the world stage.
Looking towards next u19 WC, 06 group very weak, 07 ok...
Other nations already look to be very strong, usa, Spain(carrion, Fam), Canada(Bascoe, swords), France(euro champs).

Reply #920616 | Report this post


hoopie  
Last year

Thanks for the great and insightful contributions, Weedy

Reply #920617 | Report this post


SixersFan  
Last year

Weedy can we take away anything from the friendly victory against USA? That perhaps we have the ability but just couldn't put it together in the tournament.

Would have Hall and Somfai have helped this team? Even to add more bench depth

Reply #920618 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Helped, maybe a little... hall on d, pace, somfai size, added scoring/rebounding.
Loughridge and Crawshaw would have helped the most imo.


Beating the usa and Canada pre WC was a good sign but they went up a gear at the WC and we went backwards, effort was poor with every passing game(especially after the loss to mali), poor ball movement, turnovers galore and terrible defense set by BA hierarchy.
Positives were 40% 3, 76% ft over the tournament.

Borlase and Puoch look to be opals at some point, doubt we see many others feature in the green n gold. A couple here and there, nothing long term.

Reply #920619 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Last year

The Landale/Kay frontcourt was very effective in Tokyo, so unless someone produces something exceptional at camp you'd think Goorj would roll with that again. I do like the Thybulle change-up at PF though, good to make opponents react at different times in the game.

Reply #920621 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Last year

Lol wrong thread!

Reply #920622 | Report this post


Red84  
Last year

I wouldn't write off many of our players who did not perform well at this tournament. These are young people, putting their efforts on the line. There is no anonymity for these women - they are under so much scrutiny, so much pressure. As a local basketball fraternity- let's need not get overly censorous, feeding a toxic culture that fosters dysfunction and neurosis. As long as our young players work hard, play with honour, in my book, they should be allowed to fail.
They will be hurting for sure. For many it will be their first exposure to international competition. The unhappy experience for many may turn to bitterness and despondency leading them to withdraw from the sport.
We - the basketball fraternity, need to back them up. To make it this far in their careers indicates a measure of talent of all the womem in this squad. This experience offers up lessons for our young women, but more especially the BA coaching staff on the playing systems they adopted and player attributes they value.

Reply #920625 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Yours sincerely, BA.

Reply #920626 | Report this post


XXXX  
Last year

It is clear that HP coaches do read this forum though, so analysis and criticism of HP coaches, selection processes and the system generally is an overall a positive for the sport. There is zero transparency or accountability anywhere else in the sport.

Reply #920627 | Report this post


hoopie  
Last year

So, what do HP coaches do outside the CoE?

Do they coach based on world trends in the game, and find that their outstanding prospects don't make state or national squads (or even trials) because the selectors and BA are behind the times? Or do they coach the more conservative way in order to get their prospects into the CoE, from where it seems to be quite easy to get into state and national teams? (Based on what I read on Hoops rather than in-depth knowledge.)

Tough call, meeting player, parental and association expectations.

Personally, I’d do the first option, so that 'modern’ players will do better overseas in NCAA or Europe, and from there get into the national team.

Reply #920628 | Report this post


SixersFan  
Last year

"they are under so much scrutiny, so much pressure"

where is this scrutiny and pressure?

Reply #920629 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year


If you agree to take on a National position, should be consequences for failure and rewards for success...

Eg
U15/U16/U17 - 1 cycle
U17/U18/U19 - 1 cycle

Final Placing
13-16 - Forfeit NPP coach role forever, Forbidden from coaching Aus NT at any level forever,
9-12 - Forfeit NPP coach(2 years), forbidden NT HC (6 years), forbidden NT assistant(3 years)
5-8 - Remain NPP coach, forbidden HC(3 years), remain NT assistant.(3 years)
1-4 - Should remain HC for following tournament.


2 consecutive jnr top 4s should get you NT assistant role with a senior team in a low level tournament. Seebohm did this and went onto bigger things… he won a u17 silver and then a u17 bronze, also a u23 uni games team to gold., opals assistant to opals asia cup hc.


After this u19s, In Herbert's case after finishing 9th of 16, he should lose Coe role for 2 years, not be aloud to hc a jnr nt for 6 years(2 cycles) or be an assistant for 3 years(1 cycle).

Reply #920630 | Report this post


Wang whipper  
Last year

LOL that's a bit inflexible Slug. What if the team gets smashed by injuries and tumbles down the ladder? The coach shouldn't be punished for that. You could also have super talented teams that succeed despite having a spud coach.

Reply #920631 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Exceptions if you lose multiple players (2-3) to injury in 2 weeks but that's pretty rare.
Anything less is an excuse,
That includes the best player. If Aus lost Borlase in game 1 or 2, you’d still expect aus to to make the top 10.

Reply #920632 | Report this post


SP  
Last year

I don't think any job in the world has performance targets and job outcomes structured like that and I don’t think it would be helpful to start!

Reply #920636 | Report this post


Red84  
Last year

Hoopie - great post

As a private coach with the task of improving a child's chances of selection, it's important to acknowledge that your paycheck may influence your approach. One challenge arises when a private coach also holds a position as an association coach, as this creates a significant incentive to manipulate key decisions regarding game style and substitutions to showcase the prospect. Consequently, teams that adopt this approach often face tensions and conflicts, with other players feeling their own development is hindered when the coach prioritizes the highlighted prospect's success. This highlights the need to permit individuals to switch clubs if they desire, as it fosters a sense of accountability.

However, association coaches should prioritize the team's interests above all else. Concerns regarding state or national selection of star players should be of secondary importance.

Encouraging a range of sensible practices is vital for a healthy national system. Coaches should be willing to experiment with various playing styles and player development techniques. This diversity enables the evaluation of methods based on team performance and the progress of key players during competitions. Ultimately, a thriving national system should showcase the effectiveness of different coaching approaches.

Reply #920637 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Maybe not in australia...

Reply #920638 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Using Herbert as an example, what do you think should happen?
He is the Coe HC, the u19 gems HC.
People don't seem to know the history and how bad this result is.

U19 WWC - Australia
1985 - 6th
1989 - 3rd
1993 - 1st
1997 - 2nd
2001 - 4th
2005 - 7th
2007 - 5th
2009 - 5th
2011 - 4th, Chambers
2013 - 3rd, Chambers
2015 - 3rd, Goriss
2017 - 6th, Butler
2019 - 2nd, Butler
2021 - 2nd, Herbert, got another chance as he should have...
2023 - 9th, Herbert, the worst ever result.
2025 - …

Reply #920639 | Report this post


Hmmm  
Last year

Like most things, the results are the sum of the parts
-individual talent
- team cohesion (selection, culture, players understanding & accepting role)
- trust in players/trust in coach = confidence = on court performance
- style of play
- 'in-game coaching skill'
- fatigue / injury management

Some of these you can evaluate from the outside, other are internal only - and MUST be part of evaluation process - and communicated to broader basketball community.

We could all comment on our respective state team performances at recent U16/U18 nationals and point to one or a number of the above as the reason for subsequent results.

To Weedy point though re: consequences - there must be - although as a Vic observer - that hasn't occurred IMO in recent years.

Reply #920642 | Report this post


Bballfan  
Last year

Weedy - that criteria is brutal. Very unforgiving and cut throat.

Reply #920644 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Last year

Next U19 campaign

Boys+Girls
2006/2007, possibly 2008 born athletes

U17 Oceania Championships
Port Moresby PNG
October 2 - 7


Teams possibly may look like...

Boys team? - likely nbl guys plus Coe/nbaga

Cheeseman pg
Daniels pg
Renfree sg
Greer sg, probably not for oceania
Fennell sg
Furphy sf
Beauchamp sf
Siulepa pf
Dodson or Adair pf
Rowlings pf
Whitbourn or Dimmock c
Zikarsky c



Girls team? - likely all the Coe girls + Aus camp invites/best 07s

Bond or Perkins or Lehmann pg
Harvey pg
Hall cg
Deas cg
Seumanutafa or Hodges or Bessell sg
Bobongie sg
Gardiner or Fuller or Dart sf
Shiels sf
Bird or Clarke or Webb pf
Somfai pf
Metcalfe c
Portlock c

Reply #920650 | Report this post


LC  
Last year

Reply #920775 | Report this post


Red84  
Last year

Paywall - I'm a bum - can someone give us the main points?

Reply #920783 | Report this post


hoopie  
Last year

Ditto

Reply #920784 | Report this post




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