RalphieWig
Last year

VJBL U14 team prohibited from participating

My son and his teammates have been forcefully removed by the VJBL after the first week of grading.

To provide you with some back ground, several of the boys previously played at one of the larger clubs in the South East and this season moved across to a smaller Rep club. Each of the kids have their own circumstances for moving which includes:
- Dual sporting commitments clashing with Sunday training
- Religious duties clashing with Sunday training
- Bullying within the previous Rep program
- The usual story of kids not picked in their expected team

After approaching the new club, we asked if it was possible if some of the boys could play together (granted they would have likely graded together in the highest team together anyway). The club approved this and provided a Sunday training time slot which suited all players as well as a relaxed family environment for the boys to enjoy.

For the start of grading, the team was placed in a low pool (we requested to be higher, but were unable to be change our ranking based on the club's performance over the previous two seasons). The hope was that we would play through the 10 weeks of grading and land in a spot that was suitable for our mix of kids. After winning the first grading game by a big margin, the VJBL stepped in...

Unfortunately the eight boys have been told they can’t suit up this week and the season will not be going ahead. They have also been told that none of them are able to play in the new club’s U14.1s because that team is 'too low’ based on the grade some of them played in last season.

Is there a rule in place to say players can’t compete in a certain grade based on their level of competition from the previous season?

Has anyone else experienced something similar?

Ultimately I just want my son to enjoy his Rep basketball and play at the best level possible for him.

Topic #51604 | Report this topic


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

I mean this has never happen to me but when a player moves from club to club their is a PTT rule and custom rep teams aren't heard of.
What club?

Reply #930922 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

i found your team their probably is a small rule pending the players ablity

Reply #930923 | Report this post


Euroleague  
Last year

Also, further to this, there is a rule of 2 import players per team (ie, maximum of 2 player-imports in the 1s, another 2 maximum in the 2s, etc); seeing in your text that this was a case of several players moving clubs so they can play together is an automatic breach of that rule and VJBL's decision is completely justified.

Does your son actually want to play at the highest possible level or does he just want to play with his mates?

If the former stands, then why move to a smaller club with a much lower ranking (and why even request to be graded higher anyway?)?

If the latter stands, then why play rep altogether when all you have to do is form a domestic team and enjoy playing with mates.

Sounds like you don't really know how rep works and you haven't given this any consideration. Again, definitely sounds the VJBL had solid grounds for their decision and seems completely justifiable.

Reply #930926 | Report this post


Euroleague  
Last year

Also, sorry if I'm offending you here, but reading that the kids left the club because they were not "picked in their expected team" reeks of entitlement and that's something that happens in many occasions across rep basketball, where kids show up with minimal effort and hustle in tryouts (yes, I know a lot of clubs have a faulty tryout system), and parents just expect them to land in a particular team, only to then be left stunned because their kid did not make the team they "expected" to make...

Reply #930927 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

Haven't really heard of friendship rep teams.

I found the team you all are at now it sounds like your club set you up to fail

Reply #930928 | Report this post


Manders  
Last year

No point in winning by over 100 points with the other team scoring only once - that's not good for either team and the coach of the winning team should have moderated a little. Expect it’s top age kids playing a low bottom age group. Club has just put the kids in the wrong grade, not VJBLs fault.

Reply #930929 | Report this post


Flyers Get Wings  
Last year

From the current VJBL by-laws.

16.5 MAXIMUM NUMBER OF CLEARANCES PER TEAM:
Teams participating in VJL 3 (or higher) will be granted permission to accept a maximum of two (2) players into their team whom have cleared from another association after having played with another association in the previous Championship Season or current Grading Phase One.
Note:
This rule will not be enforced in the Under 20 age group and will apply for all other age groups as follows:
During Grading Phase One:
This rule will apply for U/14, U/16 and U/18 teams that are playing Pools 1-5 (Ranked 1-88) and will then extend to crossover games "A-V". It will apply for Under 12 teams playing Pools 1-6 (ranked 1-104)

Based on this ruling, there is nothing wrong with the composition of this team. Did the club apply to the VJBL early enough when asking to be graded/ranked higher for Grading Phase 1? Granted the scoreline is not ideal but it sounds like something else is going on for the league to stop them from playing.

Reply #930930 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

Thanks for all your responses. Reading through the by-laws, I too, am unable to find any ruling that prohibits imports playing in the same team below VJL3.

The shift in clubs for my son is due to the fact that most programs run a Sunday session at a set time that competes with other sporting interests, with no flexibility on this. At 12 years old he is forced to choose between two sports, rather than be accepted to play both. The new club was a means to accomodate this.

We certainly requested to be graded higher, I am unsure if the club put in a formal request at the appropriate time.

The score line is not we wanted either, we want to be placed in a grade that is competitive to both parties, as suggested we hoped to 'win' our way up to find a suitable level. I believe the VJBL is able to regrade teams outside the norm, if they are below the Standard VJL5 and above grading map.

Reply #930936 | Report this post


hoopjunkie  
Last year

sounds like a BS rule for a kid to be ineligible to play in a 1's team.

it might just be too much work for your new club to spread your boys across all the other teams as it will result in rearranging all the other teams also (from 1s to Xs) and a lot of boys and their parents will be unhappy if they move down a team, which may result in even more issues especially since your group is new to the club.

Reply #930937 | Report this post


KD35  
Last year

Why were they entered into such a low team by the club originally, was it purely so they could play together?

It sounds like the boys are more than capable of being in the first side if they're winning by so much

Reply #930938 | Report this post


MICHAEL_MACGYVER  
Last year

@hoopejunkie....i'd say the issue here isn't so much that they are ineligble but more along the lines of the import rule.

Reply #930939 | Report this post


hoopjunkie  
Last year

@MICHAEL_MACGYVER


True, but this was what was communicated to them: "They have also been told that none of them are able to play in the new club's U14.1s because that team is 'too low’ based on the grade some of them played in last season."

Reply #930940 | Report this post


Juice  
Last year

I recon the issue is more about commitment. Somewhere along the way that word has lost its meaning. Rep is a higher level which requires MORE COMMITMENT. If you can't deliver what is required of you to be a part of a team then don't do it. Rep is not mandatory to participate in. If you want to play another sport then play domestic. Then you can actually commit and make both teams a priority. So yes, you choose between high level footy and lower level bball or vise versa. They are kids and it's not professional but teaching your child what it actually means to properly commit to a team is something that might be a lesson better learned.

Reply #930945 | Report this post


Entered low to get around the '2 clearances per team' and been found out? Regardless of intent of the players as individuals, someone at the club has to have known what they were doing?

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+  
Last year

Ha ! commitment at our club means nothing - if your face fits you're in. Turn up for 1 training a fortnight still get 1st squad.

Reply #930956 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year



@Hoopin' in the burbs



Sounds about right.



I'm curious what the parents of this friendship Rep team were expecting when they transferred to another club? - That they'll be allowed to form their own rep team (with their choice of players), create their own training schedule that is convenient to them, and play in a high division competition despite the 2 import rule? Talk about entitlement.

Reply #930958 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@SlowMoMitch as per above - the boys are happy to be picked in any team and play in any grade, whether that be separately or individually. The key piece was the Sunday training timeslot, which was why those particular kids were grouped together.

Reply #930959 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

@RalphieWig

Your statements are contradicting:

"After approaching the new club, we asked if it was possible if some of the boys could play together"

As per above, seems like that the intention is to join and play as a group and not individually. What I don't get is why was your group placed in a low, if not, lowest team, esp coming from a larger club. Did your boys come after the tryouts and team selection? Most club tryouts are at the same period so for some of your boys that didn't get picked in their expected teams from the larger club indicates that.

"I just want my son to enjoy his Rep basketball and play at the best level possible"

And

"The usual story of kids not picked in their expected team"

Both don't seem like kids and parents are happy in playing any (low) grade. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money just to play in a C-grade level competition, otherwise just play weekday domestic basketball.

Reply #930969 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

Had a look at this club even if they were the 1s for this club they VJBL would have had red flags

Reply #930974 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

magic gather step ye i figured it was that team i just didn't post it because I thought maybe privacy reasons

Reply #930975 | Report this post


It's all published online...

Reply #930976 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

that is true you do have me there hahha

Reply #930977 | Report this post


Imagine being the head coach of this team and then being high and dry. What was that program thinking?
This smells of entitlement and a really sloppy oversight from a club that has now lead these kids down a path that probably can't be fixed.
I could guess which club would be that unaware of the ropes. I’m sure time will tell.

Reply #930985 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@SlowMoMitch I'm not sure any of those statements are mutually exclusive.

To be clear it was only one player that did not make their desired team at the previous club.

All boys attended the try-outs and communication before they commenced was clear on expectations around Sunday training and what the club was happy to do to accommodate them within the program.

BV is yet to provide any evidence on why they are not allowed to participate at any level.

Reply #930988 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@a5ian nbl fan I believe the club offered this suggestion to BV, to revise the team as 14.1s but this was knocked back (in any grade) They were also told none of the kids were permitted to even join the existing 14.1s because this team was simply 'too low' based on where the kids played last season (even though some boys played in a similar grade or didn’t play Rep at all)

Reply #930989 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

yeah I just find it out odd you'd want a custom rep team though like domestic all for it

Reply #930990 | Report this post


BigD  
Last year

There are FDP (x2), VC and VJL1 (from previous age group) players playing in one of the bottom pools of an age group, and placed together into the 'bottom team' of that club’s teams within that age group.
This is blatant and clear manipulation to avoid the import rule.

How anyone can think this is okay is beyond comprehension, to be blunt with it.
It’s even more disappointing that this club clearly supported such actions.

Reply #930991 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

Thanks @BigD, perhaps the club is at fault on this part. I can confirm they were provided all details on the level/s of basketball the kids had come from. As you well know it is also all available on PlayHQ.

As far as I understand they could have been placed in any team at the club and avoided the import rule based on the published VJBL Rules of Operation.

Once the team was finalised we were happy to be called U14.1s (or any number for that matter) and requested to be graded up to VJL4.. We even advised the club once grading fixtures landed that this was going to be rough for all teams involved. We were told there was nothing that could be done as teams can only be graded based on their existing rank, which is calculated by the equivalent teams performance over the last two seasons.

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Footloose  
Last year

Which club are we talking about?

Reply #930994 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

It's crazy how serious people take this stuff. It's junior basketball for christ sake. I can't understand why these kids can't play in an appropriate grade. I checked this kids previous stats and none dominated in their previous teams. Let the boys play.

Reply #930997 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

^ sounds like one of the entitled parents.

Reply #930999 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

^ Sounds like a guy who takes 12 year old basketball way too seriously. Loves to get on forums and argue with concerned parents that want the best for their children.

Reply #931000 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

Maybe SlowMoMitch got cut from a team when he was a kid and has never got over it. I think you got some baggage mate.

Reply #931001 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

@SpunkyDuncy

Nah, just thinking logically.

How do you suppose BV would allow your kids to play?

(1) Be the 14.1s team and give them exemption to the import rule? - That would be special treatment and just open a whole can of worms.

(2) Spread them out across different teams? - Wasn't this the reason you transfered clubs since your boys can't commit to Sunday training.

(3) Keep them together and let them play at a low grade? - do you think it would be fair to the opposing teams, not to mention just a waste of your time and money.


Any other poasible scenarios?

Reply #931002 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

Based on what you're saying, what is the highest grade these boys could play?

Reply #931003 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

@SpunkyDuncy

Your club's 14.1 team plays in pool 10B. Looking at the grading map, the highest they can go is VJBL 5.

You'd need to be in at least pool 6 to and win your way up to play higher that vjbl 5.

14.5 team plays in pool 14A which would be in VJBL 5 to 10.

Reply #931004 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

Ok. So VJBL5 is the highest this team would be able play fairly. Correct?

Reply #931005 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

Highest - Yes
Fair - Probably not. Basing from BigD's reply, it still wouldn't be competitive for your boys. Opponents would still be bottom aged kids. Might be the reason why any of your kids can't be in the 14.1s. Although they're the "1s" team, their pool is extremely low.

Reply #931006 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

Some of these kids played VJBL5 and VJBL3 but struggled. Why is it so easy to assume they will beat teams just because they are now top age?

Reply #931007 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

Also FDP and VC can mean nothing if you were lucky to be on a great team with exceptional individuals.

Reply #931008 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

Because when they played vjbl5, they were playing against kids their age and skill level.

When they'll play vjbl 5 again this season, they will be playing against teams a year younger than them - smaller and less skilled.

Reply #931009 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

That's not true at all. Last season the 3's bottom age team and 4's top age team both ended up in VJBL5. Majority of the other teams were all top age teams and incredibly competitive. Why do you automatically assume only bottom age teams land in VJBL5?

Reply #931010 | Report this post


Stacking a lower end team to avoid the 2 import rule isn't in the spirit of what the rule was intended for. If the kids all played at a fair standard before, it’s making a mockery of the process.

Defending those rules = Taking it too seriously? I don’t know about that. There are a lot of reasons those rules exist; fairness being one. Doesn’t sound like this group hitting the floor as a unit is 'fair’ and then starting below themselves to achieve it, also a bit off. It opens the door for all kinds of shifts in the future if allowed

But, they should be allowed to play together. Kids can play with whoever they want. In domestic. Those looking to take their basketball further, should try out for a rep program.

Reply #931020 | Report this post


Baller23  
Last year

Smells like an attempt to cheat to me.
And this smaller club looking to improve its stock.
A 106 to 2 result.

Tell me again how your kids are being let down by the process?

C'mon now.

Reply #931021 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

So what should the options have been for the kids prior to the season ? Are they simply not allowed to play at this club?

Reply #931026 | Report this post


Esky 21  
Last year

I don't think they are trying to cheat the import rule because the club's #1 team is well below VJL3. Just don't understand if they all went to tryouts how they didn't become the #1 team. Theoretically, if they were allowed to play they could make VJL4 because there is discretion for the "10 best VJL5-10 teams decided by VJBL Admin" to be placed in VJL4. I know they won by 104 points but it is a long way from Pool 14 to Pool 4 where those who will be playing VJL4 currently sit.

Reply #931027 | Report this post


Baller23  
Last year

That's the bit that is fishy.

And these poor kids, who just want to play together. Should enter as a domestic team somewhere and come back to rep in 12 months. It’s not as if they can’t play at all, just can’t play in this comp as this grouping.

Reply #931028 | Report this post


Jichael Mordan  
Last year

Surely when the Keys tryouts occurred the club would have received a PTT from Casey regarding these players and their previously rep levels. Based upon that one would assume these boys would have stood out thus for consideration for their 14.1 team. Even if we assume they had 4 poor sessions at trails you'd wonder why you’d put a majority top age team together instead of a development team, certainly not the 14.5 team.

Across the board it would appear there has been a significant lack of professionalism/integrity in this matter by the club and parents.

Me thinks it come back to bite the parents on the bottom, trying to manipulate rep to suit their lifestyle rather than accepting what is required.

Unfortunately it’s the kids that suffer!


Reply #931029 | Report this post


DeepWombat  
Last year

The OP said "the usual story of kids not being picked in their expected team", so I assumed they weren't happy with where they were picked in their original association and came to the new one post-tryouts, hence being put into a 14.5 team because they had already picked 14.1-14.4. Just my guess.

Reply #931032 | Report this post


Baller23  
Last year

Jichael Mordan on the money.

Reply #931033 | Report this post


Jichael Mordan  
Last year

Casey tryouts finished in early October, teams were announced 8 October. Two boys (that we know of) were named in the Casey teams (14.2 and 14.6).

Keys tryouts commenced after on the 15 October and ran until the 24 October.

Reply #931034 | Report this post


Juice  
Last year

If they were "happy to be put in any team" why not just stay at the club you were at and honor the commitment to train on Sundays. If you played for that club in previous years why was it all of a sudden an issue now? Now you've just screwed up your child's basketball pathway trying to be cute and circumvent the rules for all the wrong reasons. And if at U14's your worried about what number team your child is in you need to get your gp to prescribe some big picture pills.

Reply #931037 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

You might want to read above @juice, 12 year old children are not able to play two sports at the highest level available to them. They are forced to choose one as 'priority' or ‘elite’ and the other simply as casual. It’s a ridiculous sentiment

Reply #931041 | Report this post


+  
Last year

nothing related to the clubs mentioned here but I can't believe what our club is buying into - known players with multiple commitments and several years of not turning up to trainings regularly in previous age groups - we get a new coach and parents buddy up to them and bingo ! they are in. Regulars scratching their heads on the sidelines.

Reply #931043 | Report this post


Reggie  
Last year

Well said Jichael Mordan, parents complaining after they called out trying to manipulate the system.

Reply #931048 | Report this post


Euroleague  
Last year

Jichael Mordan

You're absolutely spot on, cannot agree more with every single word you've written.

As I said in my previous response, this reeks of entitlement on behalf of the parents and I'm very glad they got caught; I'm gutted for the kids who will have to stay out of the court, but couldn't be happier to see such manipulative plans and such blatant attempts to cheat established rules being shot down by the VJBL.

And also, not surprised at all to hear Keysborough is the club involved in this case. Total basketcase of a club with an absolutely rotten culture. Does not surprise me one bit to hear they have a huge part to play in the misunderstanding.

Hope that win against poor Dandenong 8 made you all feel good.

Reply #931049 | Report this post


Jichael Mordan  
Last year

Personally, I applaud the VJBL for making a quick and decisive decision in this matter, of-course I feel for the kids BUT when you scratch the surface one has to completely agreed with their decision.

Of the 6 players that played Friday night 5 played at VJL1 or higher in the 12s in 2022 and 3 of the 5 played VJL5 or above in the 14's in 2023.

RalphieWig you've cited the inability for your child to play two spots at the elite level at the age of 12, unfortunately that what 'elite' requires, hardcore commitment to take it to the next level! It would be every kids dream to reach such heights in one sport let alone two so you should be proud that your boy has such talents/skills. When you are that good decisions need to be made at this age as that training pushes these kids to the stratosphere and beyond.

Look at some examples, Scott Pendlebury/Christain Petracca and even Josh Giddey, all were exceptional in both sports (AFL/Basketball) but had to make 'that' decision.

RalphieWig the VJBL have forced your decision for the next twelve months, your boy can completely focus on the other sport he excels in, he may find his passion either way.

It does look like you've 'designed' your own team with 5 boys moving from Casey to Keys, especially after 2 got selected for Casey this season and declined their spots. Keys have kept all 5 together thus the only way for that to happen is for the boys to be below VJL3, you'd stated they would likely have remained together but that would have been impossible given Rule 16.5 of the Rules of Operation No 27 which permits only 2 imports from other clubs into each team. Most of these boys would be over VJL3 so it's pretty clearcut for me and I see no other option but for the VJBL to remove the team's entry. Even if there were alternatives, it would come at the cost of another club and players, that's unreasonable to affect them at this juncture albeit only 1 round in.




Reply #931050 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@Jichael Mordan there's a hell of a lot of assumptions being made here. The clear intention from day one was to provide an avenue for my son to continue to play Rep, as well as other sporting pursuits and religious commitments.

No rules have been broken and at no point in time has he seeked to gain an unfair advantage.

Reply #931052 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

@SpunkyDuncy

RalphieWig mentioned that there were 8 boys in the team. So there were 2 boys that didn't play last Friday and we don't know what rep level did they previously played in. We can all just speculate at this point if VJBL5 would be competitive for them or not.

Reply #931053 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@Jichael Mordan in all of the examples provided, please confirm what age they had to make a decision?

You've stated 'it would have been impossible given Rule 16.5 of the Rules of Operation No 27’ - you may want to go back and read this again. At no point does the rule state that you can’t have more than two imports in any team below VJL3

Reply #931054 | Report this post


Jichael Mordan  
Last year

I don't count a hell of a lot of assumptions, just a few.

2. Player VJBL history is factual. Source playhq.com.au 23/11/2023
2. Your sons talented, that's an assumption.
3. Reference to Pendles/Petracca/Giddey is factual. Source 7news.com.au 2/11/2022
4. Designer team in an opinion.
5. 2 players selected at Casey is factual. Source https://www.caseybasketball.com.au/u14-boys/
6. Players remaining together is factual. Source playhq.com.au 23/11/2023
7. Import player rules is factual. Source https://www.basketballvictoria.com.au/cdn/acuj9rr0iegowscw
8. Most of these boys being above VJL3, yup an assumption.


Reply #931055 | Report this post


Jichael Mordan  
Last year

Happy to be wrong old mate re import rules tho.. Im no expert as I simply accept where my boy falls and be thankful he appreciates the experience.

Reply #931058 | Report this post


BigD  
Last year

The very fact that we have people trying to justify this decision is hugely concerning.

You have FDP players, VC and VJL1 players from their previous age group playing in a '5s' team in one of the lowest pools, and clearly done so to avoid the import rule. Even the notion of applying to be re-graded doesn't fly in this circumstance because you've designed a team to all be together as a team of imports, it's really disappointing that the new club would support these decisions. But there is a reason that club was chosen as the destination, no respectable club would even tolerate, let alone support the idea of this.

No matter how you try and spin this is, it's a blatant abuse of the rules and have been caught out doing so.

Reply #931060 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@BigD what is the difference in playing a 1s or 5s? The same import rule applies / doesn't apply so I’m not sure how it’s all been done to avoid it.

Reply #931062 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@Jichael Mordan
'When you are that good decisions need to be made at this age as that training pushes these kids to the stratosphere and beyond.'

You literally cited two athletes who were picked in U18 AIS squads for basketball but made the big time in AFL. Giddey is quoted as saying he made a decision at 15-16.

They weren’t asked to make a decision at 12. They continued to play both as long as possible.

You’ve also only used examples from the absolute pointy end, we all like to think our son is the next Giddey/Pendlebury but this is highly unlikely. It’s simply about getting the most out of two seperate sports, not making the elite grade.

Reply #931064 | Report this post


SpunkyDuncy  
Last year

Hey Michael Mordan, you wrote


Happy to be wrong old mate re import rules tho.. Im no expert as I simply accept where my boy falls and be thankful he appreciates the experience.

Apparently you accept where your child falls and appreciate the experience.

Why did you post this recently?

You'll say "read the bottom and I clearly state it's got nothing to do with my kid"

Why would you feel the need to ask this on a forum such as this?

Come on mate. I think your trying to live vicariously through your kids on a failed rep basketball career. You even had to mention you played rep in the post below. Did it make you feel like a big boy again?

Tryouts
I'm a junior domestic coach with reasonable experience both as a rep player back in the day and over the past 10 years coaching ages 8 to 14.

What completely amazes me is some of the decisions made by rep teams in their selection processes at tryouts. Yes of-course some kids will tryout better than others BUT having coached some of these kids for 3/4 years I'm curious why rep teams wouldn’t considering approaching the domestic clubs/coaches to ask a few questions especially given most rep coaches have tentacles into domestic land.

Before you start no I’m not the parent of either boy and have no vested interest in one over the other. My sole intent out of this is to try and understand how/what rep teams look for because I must be blind.

Thanks

Reply #931065 | Report this post


Ostrich80  
Last year

The only topic more important than this is the one about the Chelsea DOC

Reply #931066 | Report this post


Turnover  
Last year

I want to play golf on Wednesday morning, but have work commitments... I want to play golf on Saturday morning every week, but have family sporting events... I want to go away on the weekends fishing, but have rep basketball game/training commitments... I want to go watch my AFL/NBL team play, but have basketball games/training commitments.

We all want to do multiple things in our life, but aren't able to due to not being able to fully commit. So you have to drop things, it's a fact of life.


VJBL needs to change the rule regarding imports... it needs to state 'max 2 imports in all grades'

Reply #931067 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@Turnover that is an absolutely awful comparison

One of the boys that joined the team was severely disadvantaged at the previous club, due to religious commitments clashing with Sunday training. He always shows up to the remaining sessions, brings energy and plays entirely for the team. As a result of the religious clash, he was regularly docked court time and this season not even picked in an 8s team, when he clearly is at the level of the 2s. Joining the new club was seen as a great solution. Is he simply not to play Rep basketball because of his faith ?

Reply #931069 | Report this post


TP  
Last year

Nothing stopping players play dual sports at Casey.. I had a kid last year playing rep footy and rep basketball. There is a preference to prioritise one over the other but not outlawed. We made it work.

Reply #931071 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

But no matter where these kids go they need a ptt even for 2025 season from Casey since Keysborugh never played a full season if they were to play under 16s give permisson

Reply #931074 | Report this post


Phizzer  
Last year

As a rep coach and parent, I find this thread quite interesting.

I did see a 106-2 win in U14 grading (pool 14 too!) and the poor team that scored 2 was both from the foul line in the first quarter. So they allowed zero field baskets for a full four quarters of basketball. And winning team only had 6 players too!

Clearly VJBL had to look into this.

Interesting that this club intended to register 7 U14 boys teams it seems, with the 14.1 team in Pool 10 only. Clearly not enough players for 6th and 7th team and 5th full of transfers, why did they believe they'd field 7 full teams in this age group.....

Reply #931076 | Report this post


Turnover  
Last year

@ RalphieWig not sure how it is awful, just reality, and sometimes it sucks.

So if you are of 'faith' you get to do whatever you like? There have been heaps of people that can't do things due to faith... If I remember right, there were few AFL players that had issue with playing Saturday due to being Jewish (I maybe wrong as it wasn't my club).

Everyone has a right in this country to make choices for themselves and their family, but unfortunately there are only 7 days in the week and not everything fits for everyone.

Reply #931077 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

Parents that can't see what's wrong with this is clearly what's wrong with this.

Reply #931078 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@TP you've clearly had a different experience to most of the kids I know, hopefully you had a great coach who was able to work in with you.

Much of the time, Players would regularly sit on the bench for extended periods, due to missing chunks of Sunday training. One such example was in a VC team, players were forced to sit on the bench until half time (some of these boys would be in the best handful of players in the state).

The club also turned away an FDP/SCC athlete who would have last year been the best player in their U14 program, due to his competing commitments.

Reply #931080 | Report this post


Reggie  
Last year

Awful for the kids and family's getting belted by over 100 points.

Other than feeding egos of parents does not do much for the development of the kids in the winning team either.

Reply #931081 | Report this post


Euroleague  
Last year

@BigD

Amen, brother! Spot on with everything!

Reply #931082 | Report this post


Jichael Mordan  
Last year

Hey SpunkyDuncy,

You got me.... never a truer word spoken.


Reply #931084 | Report this post


Sebastian  
Last year

SloMoMitch #931078 This is absolutely on the money, shut the rest of the Big D comparisons down. This joint is closed.

Reply #931086 | Report this post


StitchedUp  
Last year

The irony that OP keeps referring to "rep ball" isn't lost on me. Rep is short for REPRESENTATIVE - who and what is your team supposed to represent?! This group of parents has tried to create a bubble within the VJBL system. Keysborough have thumbed their nose at Basketball Victoria, as well as teams competing in the lowest tiers of VJBL competition. This group of boys would be better suited to A-grade domestic, in under 16s if need be. The structure of club try-outs and the VJBL grading process is designed to place kids against opponents of similar ability, and trying to game the system to cater to a social team contravenes these ideals. Friendship-based teams belong in domestic competitions.

This not a case of bureaucratic madness; lots of other posters have made great points about what is wrong with what these parents are trying to achieve. “Let the kids play” sentiments overlook the opponents’ right to play against teams of a similar standard. Limits on player clearances exist to uphold balanced competition, which is good for basketball itself. Protecting the Big Picture means that sometimes individuals will find their wishes are thwarted in favour of larger matters of principle.

Religious followers find themselves making sacrifices in their pursuit of faith. Timetable clashes often force players to choose between representative sporting codes. None of this is new, but it seems like this group want to avoid making tough choices and tick every box on their respective wish lists. Sport is a catalyst for life: this time it’s teaching you that disappointment is inevitable.

Reply #931088 | Report this post


Footloose  
Last year

Great summary StitchedUp

Reply #931089 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@StitchedUp you've made many valid points about the overall structure. But talking about overlooking the rights of opposition teams to play against those of a similar standard - this is exactly what we have asked for right the way through. Prior to try outs, prior to grading and further now with BV, all we wanted was the opportunity to compete at the appropriate level for the team.

I acknowledge that perhaps the club has set them up to fail with placement & composition of the team. BV however has stated that some of the kids must be playing in at least VJBL1 based on their bottom age season. Does this mean they are limited to only playing in top club’s 1’s teams ? What happens if they are not picked in that specific team?
If this is the case, were they never allowed to play at the new club based on existing team rankings? Why was this not flagged when clearances where approved by VJBL?

Reply #931110 | Report this post


takeacharge  
Last year

I can't help but wonder if the footy forum has a thread blowing up about kids in a domestic football team that had to give up their representative basketball to play....

Reply #931111 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

if you are playing a domestic footy on Sunday the commitment for rep should be priority
Like I get u12 and 14s they wanna play everything but their needs to be a commitment in my eyes for one

Reply #931116 | Report this post


AI3  
Last year

It is amazing the number of people on here saying kids should choose between basketball and footy at the age of 11 or 12 - give me a break. Seems to be rep basketball clubs have a mission to make it as hard as possible for kids to continue playing footy. It's an absolute miracle that Pendlebury was offered AIS spot for basketball and got drafted - he should have picked one or the other when he was still in primary school according to this forum

Reply #931121 | Report this post


Manders  
Last year

Sensible basketball people should not want kids choosing between sports too early, particularly between football and basketball - we know who loses that equation (in addition to the kids).
Accepting the above, there remains significant issues in the system in selecting kids for rep teams and higher (eg, FDP, SDP, State etc) that are really footballers who are just strong at their age level / early developers and will cap out at 15/16. Football loves as it just helps further their talent, as evidenced by the recent AFL draft.
For the life of me, I see no point in picking a kid for a State team that is a guard that will not grow above 5'10, or some kids who plays big at 14/15 and is 6’2 but effectively fully grown. Other than coaches just wanting to win at that age level, as opposed to developing for the future. Worthy of another topic.
Finally, I really feel for these kids being stopped from playing rep - there is a solution to keeping them in the system, whatever has gone wrong in this, which is just to sensibly re-grade them on the next occasion. They are being let down by adults - just find a solution to let them play and if it warrants it based on all the facts the club involved can separately be dealt with.

Reply #931123 | Report this post


CC81  
Last year

From my experience, most representative clubs recognise that a lot of kids play multiple codes and are generally accommodating of this. Of course, there will be individual coaches and DOCs that may take a different view.

If your rep club isn't accommodating, go to another club. However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that all your mates will be able to come across with you in the same team.

There are still great opportunities for kids to pursue rep basketball and footy at the same time and not have to choose until later in high school. It's unfortunate that some kids are missing out in this situation but I would have thought that if everyone had reasonable expectations, they could find a way to make it work.

Reply #931124 | Report this post


SlowMoMitch  
Last year

BV has soften its stance on playing multisports as it has proven beneficial to a child's development. Clubs have follow suit. Not sure what the issue is with that as a whole lot of kids are playing footy and rep basketball altogether. My son does, as well as half of their team last season. As long as you communicate properly with your coach/ club there should be no drama.

Reply #931125 | Report this post


takeacharge  
Last year

Agree, communication is key @SlowMoMitch.
Leaving training early on a Sunday can often be accommodated and I support if there is a mid week clash some consideration to alternative weeks at either sport when in season. Multi sport kids should be supported.

Reply #931128 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

The original club 100% did not support multi-sport athletes, as much as they claimed they did. All missed trainings (including leaving 10min early) must be communicated in writing to the BDM and leaving to attend another sport is not an acceptable reason.

Many stern reminders were sent out when multiple kids from one team were missing training.

As highlighted in my previous post, kids who did miss training had their court time impacted as well as countless cases where it affected which team they were picked in next season (or not picked at all).

Reply #931134 | Report this post


CC81  
Last year

Sounds like Casey is taking a hard line. They can probably afford to given they have lots of things in their favour (great facilities and probably the best demographic profile of any rep club in Victoria). If this is a consistent approach, they will leak players to other associations (although they seem to be attracting more than they are losing at the moment).

Reply #931136 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

They will continue to attract players as the best kids / hardcore basketballers want to play in the best teams.

Reply #931137 | Report this post


SonicBoomer  
Last year

Interesting thread. Feel for the kids but tough to have much sympathy for the parents/club that orchestrated this.

Particularly not for the club when not far down the road Chelsea had to cut six whole teams, including a bunch of U14s on VJBL orders (admittedly, that's a different mess entirely of Chelsea's own making)

Reply #931138 | Report this post


KD35  
Last year

My sons friend played there last season while playing football, They had no issues at all?
Parents said they'd email club BDM & coach when they had to leave earlier or arrive late and they got to as much of the training session as they could either before or after their footy game, even if it was 15-20mins.
Better than not showing at all IMO which I’m sure many parents wouldn’t in that case, and the emailing doesn’t seem overly difficult once you get your football fixture.
In saying that my son doesn’t play footy so never had to deal with the clash myself.

Didn’t seem effect them last season or their selection this season.
They did mention it was a tougher stance previously but has changed now

It’s something I’m sure most associations have to deal with, I see with my sons club and how tough some trainings for teams when they have just 4-5 kids training for 1.5-2hrs on Sunday because of the clash. It does feel hard for the team improving when for multiple weeks with half the team training together for 1hr per week within the club.

Would be helpful if BV/associations and their local football regions could work together to help out so kids don’t leave either sport but would be a tough task to keep everyone happy im sure

Reply #931143 | Report this post


SonicBoomer  
Last year

Footy has absolutley no interest in making accommodations for other sports. From the AFL level down they are extremely aggressive in making it as difficult as possible for other sports to get a look in. Basketball increasingly on their radar as it grows, but cricket still their no.1 target.

Reply #931155 | Report this post


Ostrich80  
Last year

How did the team go tonight?

Reply #931176 | Report this post


+  
Last year

SonicBoomer - I've been concerned over partnerships with football clubs - time will tell what the intent / outcome will be.

Reply #931177 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

they didn't play

Reply #931180 | Report this post


Manders  
Last year

Team that got flogged had a nice win - good on them for bouncing back!

Reply #931183 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

sorry i meant keys

Reply #931192 | Report this post


SonicBoomer  
Last year

This situation was a hot topic on Friday night ... Word from a Casey parent was the coach was instigator of this move. Coach handed out signed PTT forms to families, said 'come join me at Keys'. What a shambles all round - and again it's the kids that suffer in the end

Reply #931219 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

Sonic Boomer if true thats not even Casey or Keys fault that's the parents and that coach SHAMBLES

Reply #931250 | Report this post


RalphieWig  
Last year

@SonicBoomer as a parent of one of the boys I can guarantee that is 100% fictional

Reply #931337 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Last year

Back to this thread the dandenong team ended up winning one and lost by 2. This Keysborough would have destroyed the other teams if they destroyed Dandenong maybe the decision was good to remove them

Reply #931710 | Report this post


Todd  
Last year

Just some thoughts.
1. 106-2 Winning coach has a ticket on themself. Pull your kids back to quarter court, work on your offensive plays, ban lay ups and get the kids shooting from the outside and get the kids dribbling with their opposition hand. For goodness stake, let to the other team score. Winning by more than 30 is pointless.
2. Two import rule seems stupid to me. We all hate poaching but seriously let players and parents decide what association they want to play for.
3. Not sure it is a good idea training for rep on Sunday and then play a game of AFL. My concern is that it may lead to long term injuries.
4. Too many teams in VJBL, the standard for the lowest grades is lower than local competition's A grades.
5. Associations need to more accommodating and Sunday mornings isn't the best time for a lot of people.

Reply #933267 | Report this post


Karma Basketball  
Earlier this year

Representative Basketball should be solely for elite level players who are aiming to get to Youth League, Big V and beyond locally, or to an overseas College scholarship. Representative basketball should be viewed primarily as a Competition where the focus is on "Winning games" rather than player development. For the most part, players should be personally responsible for their own development. Players can view and assess their development progress by playing in Domestic competitions.

On that basis for Representative Basketball ...

-Limit Rep Competition to VC, VC Reserve, VJL1-4.
-Limit of TWO Rep teams per age group per Association.
-Limit of 15 players per Rep team.

-Every Rep team must be offered at least 2 x 1.5Hr Training sessions per week.
-Every Rep team player must attend at least 1 x 1.5Hr Training sessions during a week in order to be eligible to play that week's Rep Game.

-The Off Season is an unrestricted period. Players are essentially Free Agents for Rep basketball during that period.
-No limit on Player Transfers during the Off Season.
-No requirement for PTT with other Associations during Off Season.
-Players can be approached by anyone for purposes of recruitment.

As for conflicts between sports. Tough luck. That's life. Every sport is entitled to compete for player participation.

Represenative basketball is supposed to be serious competition. If a player cannot commit to a high standard because they want to participate in multiple sports, too bad. They can continue to play domestic basketball until they figure out what they really want to do ... if they ever figure it out.

IME, most kids dream of being either a great basketballer, or a great footballer, or a great cricketer, or a great tennis player, etc. etc.
It's usually the one dream that drives them. The sooner they understand the need to follow their gut feeling, the better.

Jack of all trades, master of none, is not a recipe for success in any sport to an elite level.

Reply #933364 | Report this post


Billy Bob  
Earlier this year

Perfect in theory but if you think Ba,state bodies (especially the biggest one) associations involved etc are ever going to downscale and decrease their revenues substantially and retrench a big majority of their staff in the sake of being 'elite' you have another thing coming.

The game is more popular than ever and the gravy train has too many carriages to go back and worry about quality.

They could pivot and make changes but the people involved don’t get paid well enough for the workload that entails and/or aren’t capable of making the changes needed.

Reply #933372 | Report this post


DeepWombat  
Earlier this year

I don't agree that any junior basketball, including VC, should be primarily about winning.

I think it should be primarily about developing players. Coaches will be remembered for developing pros long after VC championships are forgotten.

After prioritizing developing kids at all levels, coaches want to instill a love of the game in kids so they keep playing and and/or when they have their own children they play as well.

Winning comes after those 2 goals in my opinion.

Reply #933376 | Report this post


+  
Earlier this year

those that are in would love the ego stroke. Those that miss out would probably walk away - I'd leave it as is. Isn't Divisions enough to clarify who are the "elite" - most of the time it's the parents on about this - most kids happy to play and be with friends - that's more important to the majority.

Reply #933378 | Report this post


+  
Earlier this year

deepwombat - it's a balance between it all - development, winning / learning - as long as the trend is working towards improvement. Which brings about the next discussion > dealing with no improvement.

Reply #933379 | Report this post


Manders  
Earlier this year

Karma Basketball - but there would be no Youth League, BigV etc. without large junior programs, or at least not as we know it. The junior programmes essentially fund those programs, although many parents do not necessarily understand that.

Reply #933383 | Report this post


Karma Basketball  
Earlier this year


Firstly Happy New Year 2024 to you all.

Every single point made by each of you is perfectly valid afaic when viewed in a relevant context.

Billy Bob:

Not sure what you are saying about the impact on staff. Surely the main role of the Associations is to foster and support strong Domestic Competitions and / or strong Domestic Club affiliations. The more domestic players that are tied to an association, the more money there will be. Domestic competitions attract players from a much wider pool - not just players who dream of being at the pointy end. A strong Association is one that has lots of players.

Deep Wombat:

Representative basketball is always pitched as being a competition for serious players. The opportunity to play Rep ball should be a reward for players who are serious, prepared to put in the work themselves to get better. prepared to fine tune their skills to take the next step on a serious journey. A main motivation for improvement is "Winning".

I have seen Assocations create Rep teams that rot away in Regional VJBL competitions because the players in those teams simply should not be playing Rep ball. Often, they are treated as second rate teams and players by their own Associations. Used as fodder to help develop the players in the higher graded teams. All this done simply to tap $$$ for the higher graded teams. This mindset stifles the development of a "winning" culture which is detrimental to Assocations in the longer term. What player wants to continue to play a sport if they feel unloved?

Junior players want to be part of a winning culture. They want to feel valued. This doesn't happen when all the attention is being focused on the 1s and 2s and the lower teams are basically ignored by the people that matter. The easiest way to remedy that is to simply have a limited Representative competition where every team and player will feel valued.

Imho, the prestige of being a Representative player has been diluted significantly over the past decade because Rep ball has become a "maximise the numbers" game. Get as many players to come to your tryouts, and from as many Rep teams as you can. Often, the constraint isn't the number of players who want to play Rep, it is the number of available coaches. That leads to engaging second rate coaches to look after the lesser teams often doing more harm than good.

Instilling a love for the game and prioritising development should primarily be the domain of the Domestic clubs. Associations can support that but the buck stops with the Domestic Clubs.

As i said, Rep ball should be for the serious players who have proven their commitment to themselves, and the sport. Getting a place in a Rep team should be a challenge. That challenge is most evident with 1s and 2s. Beyond that, it is often a make up the numbers. Where is the challenge in that?

+:

Those that miss out don't have to walk away. The can play in Domestic competitions. Develop their game further and then try to make a proper Rep team in future years.

That's the point. Representative basketball isn't about making up the numbers. And it's not necessarily about having fun or playing with mates. It is about tapping the best players to play against each other in a highly structured competition where winning is valuable.

Playing for fun, developing your game, playing with mates - That's what Domestic ball is for not Rep ball.

Manders:

The main thing that fund YL, Big V et al are high participation numbers. Associations can probably absorb a lot more players into Domestic competitions than they can into their Rep programs. More players, means more registrations. So more money to fund other programs.

If you keep diluting the quality of Representative ball, then you are essentially turning it into an elitist domestic competition.

Keep the two separate. Make most of the money from Domestic leagues. Structure Rep ball as an elite competition for serious players who know how to play the game. I've seen so many Rep teams full of players who can't control the ball properly, can't shoot properly, and are incapable of executing basic plays - even at U16 and U18 level.

Seriously, is that what Representive Baskbetball is about? Giving players a Rep jersey should be an earned privilege not a reward for going through the motions. It should be something that a player can aspire to. It should not be a pathway that opens up to anyone simply because an association wants to tap as many $$$ as it can.

Someone else on here suggested that many lower level VJBL Grades are at a lower standard than many Domestic A grade leagues in the same age groups. I have seen that myself. Imho, it makes a mockery out of Rep ball.

Apologies for my rant. I tend to do that when my vision for how things could be doesn't match up with the reality of how things actually are.

Cheers.






Reply #933384 | Report this post


DeepWombat  
Earlier this year

Whilst I agree that low level reps is no better than many A grade domestic comps, that in itself is a reason not to rely on domestic for player development. I'd be wary of the kind of development domestic comps offer - from what I’ve seen individual offense is prioritized, teamwork, passing and defense is generally poor. Many domestic games aren’t even played seriously, just for fun.

As for low level reps, I don’t really think they dilute the high level reps team. Playing in a 1’s team in VC is still prestigious. I’d be more worried about missing players altogether by getting rid of the lower level reps teams. I believe both Andrew Bogut and Ezi Magbegor played in 4-5 level reps teams early in their junior careers. If they didn’t have that low level reps pathway, they may have given up on the game.

Reply #933386 | Report this post


+  
Earlier this year

one ridiculous thing that I've seen multiple clubs and age groups do over the years is make the Team 1 coach the age group co-ordinator / controller - majority of time they are so absorbed with their 1st team - never at lower grade team trainings / games / team building / no emphasis on people skills - just look at score stats and pick the big scorers.

Reply #933388 | Report this post


Billy Bob  
Earlier this year

Karma,
Referring to the pool of money generated but the amount of fees.

Look at how many hp full time staff bv have compared to other states, and look at how big their 'rep' competition is compared to other states.

Big clubs the same with hp type roles. To keep that going you would either need to pivot, rebrand and restructure which would be above the hours available, salary current admin are on and possibly above their capabilities, so I can’t see anything changing drastically unfortunately.

Reply #933405 | Report this post


Manders  
Earlier this year

HP - hubris

Reply #933409 | Report this post


DeepWombat  
Earlier this year

State HP is pretty tricky in my opinion. BA seems to just want tall, athletic types, which makes perfect sense. But how do know who's going to end up as tall and athletic? Should they be measuring growth plates? How do you know whether an average junior athlete will ever be able to reach the required level of athleticism? Should they be sending kids to affiliates like Core Advantage for athletic evaluations more? And then you still need end up being a very skilled player - you can teach skills, but you can't teach the kind of feel for the game that some elite players have - how do you spot that?

Then if you just apply the "tall and athletic" requirement, you'd miss out on our two best Boomers of recent times, Patty Mills (who is not tall) and Joe Ingles (who is not athletic).

Seems like a hard job to me.

Reply #933435 | Report this post


+  
Earlier this year

tall and athletic plus the ability to learn roles

Reply #933436 | Report this post


BigD  
Earlier this year

Uhh, Joe Ingles is 6'9 as a guard... that’s pretty tall.

Not to mention he was insanely athletic in his younger days, and you don’t make it in the NBA if you’re not athletic. Being on the slower side for the NBA doesn’t mean he isn’t athletic compared to even the basketball norm.

Reply #933438 | Report this post


DeepWombat  
Earlier this year

I was pointing out that neither is both tall and athletic, despite being two of our best.

Mills is athletic, but is not tall. Ingles is tall, but not athletic.

I know people who played with Joe in his early twenties who described him as slow and comparitively unathletic then, but it is subjective.

Reply #933442 | Report this post


Manders  
Earlier this year

For those that want a good career, whether that's college plus NBL1 or something more, it’s a long game and junior selections are not the be all. Most development comes from outside the HP system, is the reality.

Reply #933782 | Report this post


a5ian nbl fan  
Earlier this year

hate to bring this topic up again but did you guys just as keysborugh again https://websites.mygameday.app/team_info.cgi?c=0-9202-180164-634931-27121798&a=SFIX
surely you're in the wrong grade

Reply #935043 | Report this post


+  
Earlier this year

looks like they would've been better suited to a higher grade so far looking at results

Reply #935060 | Report this post




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