Anonymous
Years ago

Burnout

I know of some under 18 juniors who are burining themselves out for the sake of the game. They are doing some ridiculous amounts of activity during the week including up to 5 training sessions (club, state and sasi commitments), 3 games (ABL, reserves and juniors) while being expected to do 2 weights sessions as well as individual sessions in a week. some are even doing year 12. How are these kids supposed to perform when their bodies have no time to recover, they're so physically exhausted and they are trying to fit in their studies? i find it hard to believe that coaches are not looking after their players and expecting so much of them at this age while completing for some what is their final years of schooling

Topic #6883 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon, I agree with you. The problem is, the coaches' goal is to develop players for the national level.

They are only interested in those players that can and are willing to cope with this level of activity.

Moreover, they couldn't care less about Y12 results. Most of them wouldn't even give a thought to the fact that the most likely outcome of this silly training regime is that the options of a 17 year old are ruined because of low TER scores. Most of these players won't make the national level anyway.

Reply #76947 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

School is always available, plenty of pathways for students over 17 to get their SACE and a decent TER.

Chances to make it to an elite level in sport are once in a lifetime. Young kids need to make a choice, if they go hard and focus with sport, they'll find out how good they can be. If they give up, may spend rest of their life wondering what might have been.

End of the day, it's up to the players and their parents. Don't blame the coaches or the clubs.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

If the players and families are so worried about yaer 12 scores thern athey have 2 choices.

1/ Cut back on thier basketball activities.

2/ Do year 12 over 2 years.

If players are looking to compete at a National level then they need to do the work. If not some kid from some place else will get their spot.

Yes the system is tough. But the system is looking to weed out those players who cannot handle the workload.

Reply #76949 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Please.....
If they do not wish to do it, or cannot do it for whatever reason - then don't do it. Give up some of the basketball, whether it be juniors, seniors, SASI or state. If they wish to compete at that level, then they have to do the work - don't whinge about it.

I'm sure someone IS willing to put in the work.

Reply #76957 | Report this post


Glenn S.  
Years ago

Burnout is an interesting topic, I have coached a player that is in this situation...

- Uni Student
- Under 21 player (final season)
- ABA Bench player
- Working
- Continuing battle with chronic fatigue

If she doesnt attend all junior committments she cannot play ABA (which most juniors playing ABA say is very important to them)

Her parents are most concerned with her health and Burnout, I as her ABA coach have altered her training schedule to accomodate her situation and asked the club for a similar alteration for her junior schedule.

All coaches have their programs best interest in mind and I think every ABA coach would love to have 12 to 14 players train every training session. But I think that every coach realises that if you dont look after every player's individual needs then their wont be any players to worry about.

Flexability from clubs and coaches will make the burnout issue stop all together, the decisions fall on the players and parents shoulders and those are some big decisions for a 19 year old, a little help from all involved would go a long way for the mental fitness of any player.

Reply #76958 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

10 sessions a week is tough on anyone's body

and their brain when it comes to yr 12

remind me again what we mean by elite sport...... how many of our U18 State going on to make a living from basketball... chance are ensuring they dont bomb in yr 12 is more likely going to better for them long term.....

surely it's all about balance

and also about training more efficiently and smarter as opposed to harder and longer

btw loads of interesting and scary research out their about over use injuries in youth playing sport these days, some report showing a large increase in injuries that aren't normal in kids these young

Reply #76966 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Let's get real, the kids also have to shoulder responsibility AND their parents, for many things.

How many players injure or hurt themselves and don't even ice properly or even at all, walk around barefoot or in thongs after rolling ankles, don't do their rehab exercises regularly or properly, stretch or warm up in a diligent way or tell their coach or parent that they are hurt or injured in some way??

How many parents shrug off little Johnny's or Mary's aches and pains as "just playing sport", don't get their child to good sports injury people, supervise their kids rehab or follow up all sorts of other issues related to their child's sport in basketball or school??

Answer : A LOT from my experience! :-(

Life is about choices though, and maybe the players are "burning out" as THEY want to see how far THEY can go in the sport, NOT neccessarily to earn a living from it. Ask them maybe what THEIR goals and dreams are and help them try and achieve them. It may be to play State, or just be at a State training squad, get better for their club age group team or later the ABA, NBL or heaven forbid, even the NBA!

Communication is the key, sensible and well worked out scenarios such as Glenn highlighted a must, but above all do NOT blame others for what is always a personal choice .... to be or not to be.....
that is the question.

Reply #76982 | Report this post


Reuben  
Years ago

i think alot of this falls back on the player and parent.

If you choose to make a committment to a team, how can the coach then expect to 'know' you only want to commit to half the trainings.

Anon (#6883)- if your kid is in the situation, i'd suggest you go to your kids coach, sit down and have a chat to them about how much is too much/not enough.

Most coaches i know are reasonable enough, as long as your approach them at the right time(not right after a tough loss for example).

Reply #76983 | Report this post


Taco Boy  
Years ago

I know of a kid who is so close to burning out its ridiculous - however its a slightly different situation to those examples above.

He trains up to six times a week, twice with his team, twice with a division one squad and i'm informed that he has atleast one private training session with a senior coach at the club. ( i also understand that he swims atleast twice a week )

When I see him train , he's the last one to put in any effort, he can barely lift his feet ( probably because he's wearing shoes that are 3 or 4 sizes too big for him )is constantly complaining of soreness, is injury prone and although he's a half decent player, its beginning to affect his game.

Dont blame his coaches or any one from the club for this situation....its his parents who push this junior ( U/14 ) to the limits. I have tried to approach the boys parents about this matter only to be told to back off.

Burnouts a major problem, but remember its not only the coaches who put pressure on the players, parents are sometimes ( and in this case are ) to blame aswell

Reply #77001 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Glenn,

Why would you be pushing a junior player who has cronic fatigue into player senior basketball?

Are you that self interested that you would put somebodies wellbeing at jepordy?

Why not let her have a year of only doing limited sport so that they can regain full fitness and then have them come back into your senior program?

It is coaches who make these types of decisions that push kids out of the sport. As well as messing up their study commitments.

Time to tkae a step back and look at yourself buddy.

Reply #77005 | Report this post


Glenn S.  
Years ago

Anon (77005),

Are you kidding me? This player is not a recruit, she is up to the standard, she is a club junior and she is a great kid who just wants to play basketball.

I don't force her to play, and I (and her parents) don't believe I put her well being in jeopardy.

Your comments about this situation are dim-witted and asinine, you clearly have no idea of who I am or how I coach, you have no idea who this player is and what workload she can handle. She has had time off and is on the road to full recovery. But like Alistair Lynch from the Brisbane lions some exceptions need to be made to her training and game play. I am glad those decisions are being made by the player (and parents), my club, and myself cause if we left the decisions to people like you every player with a broken nail or bruised elbow would be on the sidelines.

Congratulations to you on the stupidest post I have ever read!


Reply #77008 | Report this post


aggressive  
Years ago

I totally agree, that it should be up to the PLAYER to decide what his/her goals are and go for it. Players shouldnt play to please their parents which is often the case. Also players ( i know from experience) need to know when their body needs a rest. Its much wiser to rest a sore knee for a week than to keep going and tear an ACL - which means at least 9 months off. Its good to train hard but also dont be a hero. The world wont end if you need to miss a training.

Reply #77012 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Glenn,

1/ re read the post. I never said she was a recruit. Even though she actually she was a Southern junior, but you havn't been around long enough to know that have you!

Why not let her just make her junior commitments? Which would be less stress on her body?

And actually I was there to see you have a sook at a committee member from your club about this very issue. And your attitude shows exactly where your priorities lie. And I saw with my own eye's that it is not with the club nor the individual.

Kepp digging, maybe I know more than you think!

Reply #77015 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Maybe discuss this privately?

Reply #77016 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree partly with aggressive re it is a players choice BUT for juniors there must be a balance of sport and education. If my child came to me and said, "I've made up my mind - I'm going to be a pro basketballer and I need to spend more time on basketball" I would say fine but there are some ground rules. The most important being also a commitment to education. As with all things in life - balance is important.

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BC  
Years ago

Nah Isaac, this is better then days of our lives. Let them continue please.

Reply #77022 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Your really need to do a "where are they Now" - those Juniors who were so great in Under 14,16,18. Acheived, even went through the SASI Scheme, made state lower age groups, had big dreams - but never went on - Why? Could it be that it all got too much, and why does are Under 21 Girls fade away?

Reply #77023 | Report this post


BC  
Years ago

I think you are right Anonymous. For some it does get too much and thats why they pull out. For some I guess at U18 they find boyfriends and get jobs etc so by U21 they have other interest and cant be bothered with sport (not just basketball).

Reply #77024 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I would rather my kids get burnt out by playing basketball at a descent level than burnt out playing computer games, eating, drugs and getting fat as alot of other kids do.

Its all about choice and balance. I do think that clubs that bring U18 STATE/SASI players (and there would not be many, if any) into their senior programs are making a mistake. Let them finnish SASI, State and Junior commitments before they get into the ABL - there is plenty of time for that.

Reply #77028 | Report this post


Phizzer  
Years ago

I personally think with female junior players, they get to a point where they are tired of middle aged men yelling at them constantly in games and training and give up.

Also, like BC said, they discover a social life outside of basketball and like many realise, they aren't going to make a living out of basketball.

What playing basketball, or any organised sport, at a high level does is teach young people organisation skills, time management, goal setting, team work, accountability for actions and being able to work in pressure environments. When I look at resume's I always want to interview people who've player high level organised sport for those reasons.

Reply #77035 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i agree with this im one of those players that burnt themselves out by the age of 18, its stupid the amount of training is forced on us to play at the highest level, im not sure about the rest but with so much training my quality of basketball went down because season after season i had a constant injury. i think the coached need to let up and let the kids rest.

Reply #77040 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

communication is a two-way street.

can't expect them to be mind readers

Reply #77041 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

May I ask which club you played for and if you're male or female?

Reply #77042 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

who r u talking to?

Reply #77043 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The person who said "im one of those players that burnt themselves out by the age of 18", which club and male or female?

Reply #77044 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

if ur takling about anon(#77040) im a male from woodville, but im not bagging woodville they were good to me while i was there.

Reply #77045 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Its not only parents and players that can be stupid over injuries.
Over the years, I've seen numerous coaches encouraging their best junior players to play with rolled ankles, knee injuries, concussion (..."The team needs you; we might just win the grand final...")

Reply #77059 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i am 1 of those state/sasi/club kids at the present time. its true we dont speak up wen there are little injuries, but that is only from fear of letting the coach or others down. i have 9 trainings a week plus 2 games and always look tired, but wen it comes down to it, the kids that quit didnt really have their heart in it in the first place. i kno from experience that if u really concentrate on your schooling and basketball, its a breeze. a tip: dont plan your week, if u do and something goes out of plan u tend to lose it a bit and thats wen u begin 2 think its too hard. just let it happen and concentrate on wat u have 2 do, not wat u MITE do or wat the future MITE bring.

Reply #77080 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I take it that you MITE be skipping English classes to fit in these trainings...

Reply #77085 | Report this post


Indiana  
Years ago

U/18 is the start of a very hard 2 - 4 years.
Most players (particularly girls) are of ABA standard physically.
They can compete with the 6/7/8th players at this level(ABA) but still have a foot in both camps(Junior and Senior).
They have the ultimate educational commitment at the same time, and for good measure the pleasures of sex and partnership with the opposite sex.
It is the toughest time in all sport NOT only Basketball.
The NCAA system has the same dilema!
The strength of the US system, though , is it links the sport with the education. Even though this system has different problems.
With Representative sport the choice is made by the individual with advice from the variety of parties(Parents , club, coaches!! and partners).


I had 12-14 per week comittments years ago ...nothing has changed or will change, thats why U/14 children must love the game first, later they will be asked to choose, they will choose with there hearts and if the love is threr there, will play on to 28 or older.

Their children will the play as well!!!!

Reply #77094 | Report this post


pickles housemate  
Years ago

Thanks to Isaac for addressing the ESL (English as a Second Language)post. (#77080)

Reply #77095 | Report this post


Fiji  
Years ago

The sport of Basketball needs more "Coach Carters".

The College system was built on education and sport, NOT Sport and education.

I have a kid right now going through this, with the dream of going to the US College system to play BB the sport she loves.

Really wish the coaches here actually asked the parents (just once would be nice) how the 6 or 7 training sessions each work were effecting the childs education.

Might just be too much to ask I know, but as Carter, Sheedy, Dunlap and others have said and strived for over the years the educational component is as, if not more important than the sport development in younger players.

Reply #77182 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Nobody is denigning that education is important.
Kids today if they apply themselves can have it all, but it does take inmense self discipline and time management skills.
If these 2 things are lacking then the choice is simple,put the dream on hold and do the education.
And truthfully if the 2 skills are lacking the dream aint going to come true anyway.

Reply #77202 | Report this post


Jess  
Years ago

reply to 77028

I think it is an achievement on behalf of the player to be asked into abl mens squad..,it is up to the individual whether they can cope with the work load...
at 18 the player is almost an adult....

Reply #77239 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Back to burnout.

All kids that do State/SASI/District(/school) are mentally and physically exhausted at the moment. They are physically sore from too many hard trainings with too little time to recover. They are mentally sore from the stress they are put under. They train hard because it is competitive out there. They are under stress because it is competitive out there. And that's got nothing to do with their time management skills/school work.

IMO the elite level program doesn't improve the fitness, skill levels or performance of these youngsters. It causes fatigue and burnout.
The schedule reflects an immature irrealistic and irresponsible attitude towards coaching of adolescents.

Reply #77411 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Then doen't do it and leave it to the people who are capable.

Angela Marino got a TER of 99 and got into Law at Adelaide doing ABA/SASI/State and managed to do quite well at the Olympics

Reply #77414 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No one makes them do all the training. If they are not capable of handling the workload, give something up.
Quite easy really.

Reply #77418 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Doesn't work that way though. These kids run themselves into the ground in their ambition to achieve.

Btw, re Angela Marino: it would be interesting to see if country kids suffer less from burnout because they have more time to recover

Reply #77420 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Between now and U16 and U18 Nationals in July, many players will get worse unless well looked after by their parents, coaches and get injuries properly treated. Then if it's too hard, drop it.

Reply #77422 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon 77420 -

"it would be interesting to see if country kids suffer less from burnout because they have more time to recover"

More time to recover? Between their ITC training and local competition basketball?

Darren Ng and Marcus Ng also managed to do quite well at school while training with SASI, and playing junior and senior ball.

Reply #77425 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Neither of them played during yr 12. Probably a smart move.

Reply #77427 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Angela spent Yr 11 and 12 in Adelaide at boarding school and would have had as much if not less recovery time.

Reply #77431 | Report this post


Anthony  
Years ago

Our child is in juniors and is equally as good at basketball & netball.(state level). As the latter is only half season there is a lot less demands and as school work and 'learning' is a little difficult for her, in the end she may choose the latter sport to take off the 'pressure' and thus 'fit' everything in. If learning wasn't as difficult she would try to do both for as long as poss.

Reply #77434 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Mathew Liptak from the Adelaide Crows did his medical degree as well as incorporating his AFL commitments. It can be done, it's just a mater of having developing your time management and how much is done

Reply #77437 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Lets put this into perspective; any person whom wished to become a professional at anything has to put in the hard yards. If you want to become a doctor or a lawyer, then you have to hit the books from about year 8 and get a perfect SACE score or a very high International Baccalaureate score to gain a place at university so in the end you can achieve your goal

Sport is no different, if you want to play in the NBA or WNBA or even represent Australia at an Olympic games you have to put in the hard yards; you have to make sacrifices to achieve a goal. If that means that you have no social life or part time job then it is simple because you have to put things into perspective and prioritise your time to meet the demands.

Coaches should install smart training principals into regular training sessions rather than long and intense one that have the potential to cause injury and fatigue. Short, sharp trainings that last only 50 60 mins will always create interest and improvement in a athlete or student rather than having a 2 hour session where 70 mins is wasted where the athlete losses concentration as they don't have the mental stamina to keep the concentration needed. There is no need to have any more than four 1-hour training sessions a week and potentially 2 games a week (maximum on court time per week should be 6  8 hours per week) as recovery time and incorporating out side interest are just as important to skill development is.

Same as when a student is in high school from year 9 - 12, a study was done in early 2000 by a leading university in the united states and shows a student should do no more than 3 hour study a night, any more is seen to be pointless and the retention of information is lost as fatigue sets in. The mental side of learning a new skill (education is a skill as well) is just as important as the practical side.

Reply #77438 | Report this post


Anthony  
Years ago

The 'absolute elite' are blessed wtih sporting talent and brains hence find both a little easier. The struggler, academically, may be forced to choose.

Reply #77439 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

It is not a given that every 'elite athlete' is gifted academically as well as physically in fact it is more likely that anyone who is gifted academically is usually not as athletic or interested in participating in the physical side of sport and some athletes are not as academically gifted as his peer who excel in the class room. What you will find with the person who has the ability to be gifted at both is sport and academics is that they have learnt to apply themselves to all areas of their life.

Reply #77445 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

to #77080,

"the kids that quit didnt really have their heart in it in the first place"

it is a very hard decision for the kids to cut their basketball back for the sake of their school.

some people are academically gifted and some people arent as gifted and have to work harder to get their grades.

saying they dont have their heart in it is a bit harsh!

maybe they just have their priorities right!

Reply #77446 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Living in Australia, at the age of 15 or 16 most kids should be making a decision on sport as a social aspect of life or a career. Unless you are in an elite sporting program like the Australian institute of sport (and much to some people chagrin SASI is not an elite program) you should be working towards a university place or knowing what trade qualification you want to achieve.

15 years old you should be thinking about what you are going to do for the next 50-year of your life, and in all honesty less than 1 of a % of the Australian population go on and become professional athlete. So in the end it's was a no brainier for me, I played basketball as a social aspect in my life and made my priorities to my education.

Reply #77451 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Actually Joe SASI is a the lower step to the AIS. It is the feeder program. Poeple do not make the AIS without being involved in SASI.

Reply #77457 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Yeah, so

The point of the argument is the unnecessary pressure placed on teenager to excel at en elite level. SAIS should be made redundant for anyone over 15 year of age, as unless you are at the AIS by the time your 16 you will not be playing basketball at a national level (NBL, WNBL, USA College). SAIS is irrelevant as it isn't an elite enough level to be putting that amount of pressure on kids to succeed purely to play ABA

The point to training at an elite level is to make it your occupation, if you cannot make it your occupation your priorities should be in other areas, that why SAIS is not an elite institution.

Because it will not make it your occupation once you are over the age of 16, and that where the majority of pressure in education come from.

Reply #77462 | Report this post


BMG  
Years ago

People play professional sport for 50 years, Joe? Give me a break.

Kids are asked to make their subjects at school align with their chosen career at the same age, so why not their sporting careers too?

Reply #77463 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm sure that it has been said before, but:

Joe M is the new Yogee!

Joe M, you do not have a clue, mate so give it a rest, please!

SASI has many different types of programs. Basketball (like soccer) at SASI is an underpinning or feeder program. That is it underpins higher level programs such as the AIS Basketball Program. Other sports at SASI are not underpinning programs, but high level elite programs for older athletes who are world class. An example is Diving, which I think is part of Aerial Sports. There is no National Diving League! In fact most SASI programs are like this. Basketball and soccer are exceptions, because there are already high level programs and competitions in place. The need in these sports is for feeder programs.

Get a clue before you start running off your mouth! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing for some people.

Reply #77468 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Actually Joe. The obviously doen't know much about the AIS or SASI.

The AIS took players like Lucas Walker when he was 18, and Wade Halliwell when he was 20.

For guys like Darren Ng, Brad Gerlach, Matt Sutton etc I am sure that they would not be in the position that they are now without SASI.

Brad Hill, David Florence Ryan Kersten, Josh Wood and Oscar Foreman all went to the Ais after they turned 17.

Your ignorance must be bliss.

Reply #77472 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Did you even read what I wrote?

Simple fact about it is, why is there the need to put high amount of pressure on a 17-year-old basketball player when they are not going to make it their occupation? If that is going to be there occupation, then you need to put a greater emphasis on basketball

With record level of youth unemployment in South Australia it is imperative that the young people you know how to obtain they're chosen career path from an early age. I never said anyone should give up playing sport but what I did say was that a greater emphasis has to go on your career path lines, be that basketball (any sport, but we are talking about basketball), university or gaining a trade.

If it is not going to become your occupation then there is no need to increase the unnecessary pressure, play under 18 div 1 and go on to play ABA but if that is as far as your going to go with basketball then you need to have a few more door open for you in other area of your life. If your only going to play ABA and still go to SAIS 5 night a week rather than get good grades at high school then that is irresponsible because it will limit your opportunities to gain meaningful employment.

Reply #77473 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe M for president! Of SASI!

Reply #77475 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"SAIS 5 night a week" who does sasi 5 time per week?

Also players in ABL squads and SASI is not the norm. I would struggle to think of an example (on the boys side) of an abl doing SASI and ABL at the same time.

Reply #77476 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"SAIS 5 night a week" who does sasi 5 time per week?

Also players in ABL squads and SASI is not the norm. I would struggle to think of an example (on the boys side) of an abl doing SASI and ABL at the same time.

Reply #77477 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Don't take everything so literal, and try and consider a progression timeline from under 18 to ABA via SASI

Reply #77480 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

We are talking about 80 kids from 16's and 18's across Adelaide.
Not many overall considering the numbers playing div 1. Of which maybe 1 or 2 will make it to the Ais,
so the answer for the most of you will be simple, and burnout is only happening to a selective few.
Choices choices choices------the mainstay of life.

Reply #77484 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Go back and read what I wrote,

SAIS is a very important stage in basketball development but it should be for under 12,14 and 16's once a player gets to 16 years of age the have to decide what they are going to do.

Reply #77485 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i think u's r all missing the point the amount of basketball played every week by kids in programs like sasi takes its toll on the body, after going through all of this i think its better if the kid plays less basketball at the age of 16, 17 so both the body and the mind arent burnt out by the age of 18.

Reply #77497 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So we are only talking about 40 kids max that are involved in sasi at under 18 level.(16 to 17yr olds)
So the percentage of kids training at an elite level is getting smaller.......which means that if you make a choice to cease training at the elite level the pool gets even smaller for players to continue UP to the next stage.
Step out to study you may never go any higher then where you are now and if you are happy with your choice than so be it.
If forced out whether for study reasons or burnout or injuries there will always be an element of doubt follow you for the rest of your life of WHAT IF.
And anyone with a competetive nature is always going to give their all if they want the dream enough.
(The pool of talent is so small compared to the population base that only very few people understand this arguement)
And as a final point, most kids that take part in elite sports do time manage well and have good study habits.This is a Fact!

Reply #77510 | Report this post


pickles housemate  
Years ago

Joey Baby,

FACT - Not every kid who wants to play ABL or higher also wants to be a uni student.

JOe, you said tha tat teh age of 15, kids should be considering what they want to do for teh next 50 years...

FACT - Kids at high school will average 7 different jobs in their lifetime.

furthermore...

FACT - A very low % of school kids know what vocation Job they want when they leave school/go to TAFE or Uni/join the dole queue.

FACT - Our schools have a large percentage of kids who don't want to be at school - they want hands-on education and experience. They don't all want to be rocket scientists. They want to be like their old man, their mum, uncle or aunty - they want to be tradespeople, small business owners, Garbo's, or go work for mum and dad.

FACT - The need to put a high amount of pressure on a 17-year-old basketball player is due to the fact most of the Div 1 or SASI kids would like to play for their club at ABL level, and most of them hold the dream to play NBL or NBA. Luke Schenscher anyone?

AIS & Brett Maher: Classic example of a "kid" who wanted to play ball and went and did the hard yards away from his parents (can't remember how long he was away for).

Plenty of kids don't make SASI/AIS/ABL - bad luck, but well done for giving it a shot.

SASI/AIS/ABL isn't for everyone - and thats why I like watching the ABL. It's the elite competition for basketball players in the state.

Unfortunately some kids do burn-out, but some don't. Both groups of kids learn from the experience, and learn a lot about themselves.

Remember this FACT:
Sport plays a huge part in the social, emotional and educational development of children.

PS: It keeps them off the streets too. ;)

Reply #77538 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe,

Each time you put something up here you only loook more and more ignorant.

If you had have done any stuy on development of elite athlete's you would find that to produce maximal results a majority of individuals need to participate in a cross section of sports "sampling stage" until their reach 10 years of age. Hence no U/12 SASI. That until they reach 13-14 years of age they only need 2 trainings as they get more out of playing games than they do trainings. Hence no SASI for U/12's. That it is not until they reach 15 that an athlete should in general specialise in 1 sport and have 5 trainings for each game.

There are obvious exception like Womens gymnastics but that is a whole diferent kettle of fish.

For people doing year 11 and 12 they actually only do 3 terms of SASI, once per week. They do not do term 4 due to study commitments. And it is probably the best session they get each week in terms of competitiveness.

And it has already been shown that players can get high TER scores while doing it if they manage their time. Darren Ng managed to get intto Medicine and he was at SASI.

And when you talk about the time line for the AIS again you are just another ignorant fool who thinks that their OPINION is a fact. Well it is not.

The AIS is mainly for players who have already turned 17. Go look at their website. Their is only 1 player who doesw not turn 17 this year.

Reply #77547 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If I get this right:
it doesn't matter that the top junior bball players (U16-U18) are overtraining at the moment, because there are only 80 of them?!
What kind of an argument is that?
Two busloads of our best.

We should judge by results:
1) SA has not done very well in nationals at U16/U18 level.
2) When those that are left over after this selection process go away to represent our state, they won't be in top form, because they have been overtraining for 4 months.
See a possible connection between the two?

Reply #77549 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What to do about it:
- District clubs to allow state squad players one training a week rather than two (only the strategic traing; they don't need the fitness training)

- State squad players to be exempt from SASI trainings for the time they are in the state squad.

That would fix it.

Reply #77563 | Report this post


Indiana  
Years ago

Didnt the u/18 girls playoff in the fanal and only lose to a freak shot!!

Reply #77564 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

77549, doesnt SA consistently perform better than every other state for our population size? M

77549, Dont alot of the more successful Vic clubs train 3-4 times per week from U14s?

77549, Didnt 20 men come runners up?

77549, Do you know what you are on about?

Reply #77565 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"SAIS is a very important stage in basketball development but it should be for under 12,14 and 16's"

I wouldn't be subjecting my 10 or 11 yr old to the wrath of SAIS (sic)

Reply #77567 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#77567 obviously you don't want your child to be a world-class athlete then or be as good as they possibly could be.

When Lleyton Hewitt was 10 year old do you think he was sitting on his arse playing video games or off doing intensive tennis training to be the very best he could be or Tiger Wood for Golf? Libby Lenton or Ian Thorp for swimming? Harry Kewell was 15 year old and moved to England to live out his dream. And yes children as young as 10 should be in intensive training if they want to be a world class athlete, if not why put yourself though all that pain.

Reply #77583 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago



(#77547) where did I imply that children shouldn't try different sports? FFS I didn't say anything of the sort, of course they should try different sports.

I said to be an 'lite athlete on a world stage' you have to be in an elite sporting program by the time your 15 or 16 year of age, sure 1 or 2 may be good enough to come though a different path but the majority don't and Australian doesn't support an economy or population to have more than one elite sporting avenue.

How dare you call me 'ignorant' FFS, you don't know me so don't caste any aspersions about my so-called ignorance towards a subject. You're posting under 'Anonymous' so stop being a snivelling nosed sniper who takes easy pot shot at others.

Reply #77586 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Less Joe M bashing please. It's a contribution and he's (a) putting a name to it, and (b) at least putting forward an opinion. Whether it's misguided is a point for reasonable discussion.

Don't let the finer points and personalities derail an interesting thread.

Reply #77588 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe,

Interesting reply.

Might I add hypercritical to your ignorance.

To say that somebody is a 'snivelling nosed sniper' because they called you ignorant shows that you are doing exactly what you yourself are doing by name calling. And I would say that calling somebody ignorant is actauly saying that they have not been in a situation to know the full facts.

And I still hold that you have not every been to an International tournament as a participant which I have. That you have not been involved with the AIS which I have. And that you have not been involved in the selection process with elite level athlete's over a number of years which I have. Or that you have even studdied the process of elite athlete development which I have. Therefore your opinion is built around ignorance compared to mine.

Joe you say "I said to be an 'lite athlete on a world stage' you have to be in an elite sporting program by the time your 15 or 16 year of age"

How then do you explain that everybody in the NBA would NOT be in an elite program until after they turn about 18. ie Most US players are still in high school being coached by somebody with a teaching degree not a coach background. That includes the 2 Aussie NBA players who were not at the AIS until after U/18's.

How do you explain that any every player in the NBL was NOT involved in an elite level program by the age of 15.

Your ignorance is bliss.

Reply #77589 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Well for a fact we are talking about Australia as a country of just over 20 million people, not the United States that has under 300 million. Elite Australian sporting development programs are built around a different philosophy to that of the United States as talent identification programs have to be very specific to a need and a want of that sport rather than having a large chunk of the population playing it because they see it as a opportunity to excel and make millions of dollars.

And yet your still posting under 'anonymous', your simply words on a screen with out any credibility. You can post anything you like and say anything you like, but you have no credibility because you cannot substantiate your claims to what you have said, your 'ANONYMOUS' as for your "And I still hold that you have not every been to an International tournament" how do you know I haven't. Who is being ignorant now Mr big shot.

I am not going to argue anymore as what ever I say it going to be misconstrued as an ignorant comment or malicious or even as far as completely taken out of context as I have an agenda again the SAIS.

Ultimately 'Burnout' is about making the correct choice for you.

Reply #77597 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe,

What is the difference in using anon and using an alias like Joe M? How can we be sure that your real name is Joe? IF you liek call me Anekin, does that help.

And I know that you haven't been involved in any International tournaments because I know that people who have, would never think the way you do! Probably because they would then be aware of the process, hence not be ignorant.

Reply #77603 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

No worries sky walker, move on then.

Reply #77605 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe,
Even though he is Anon, just about everyone here knows who he is, and his background. Most of us here I guess also agree to the "credibility" of your posting (as described by you being "the new yogee").
I laugh at the fact you get all high-and-mighty about his name calling, yet YOU do the exact same thing. You claim he has no credibility as he is anon, then you go about arguing with him and responding to his bait.
And as someone who doesn't pretend to know-all about this subject, I know who's opinion I hold in higher regard, it is the person who I KNOW has been involved in the elite level sports the subject is talking about, rather than the person who claims to know all despite showing no evidence he has been involved in the subject - regardless of whether he puts his name to his post or not....

Reply #77619 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"And I still hold that you have not every been to an International tournament" how do you know I haven't. "

Well Joe, enlighten us - which elite level program have you been involved in?

Reply #77620 | Report this post


Obi Wan  
Years ago

SAIS.


Damn Joe, how many times did you say that?

For the record, its an acronym, and its stands for South Australian Sport Institute.

Spell that out.

South
Australian
Sport
Institute

Proof

No, you can't put that down to a typo, you've messed it up again and again. Who's showing their ignorance now?

Reply #77624 | Report this post


Indiana  
Years ago

This is getting ugly...keep going!

Reply #77625 | Report this post


Obi Wan  
Years ago

Ctrl + F

six times.

Reply #77628 | Report this post


ITA  
Years ago

there are a lot of anon posts about players being too tired or "burnt out"

I would ask how many of you have asked those administering the programs (be it SASI or not) what they are trying to achieve, or why they are doing a particular training program, with reference to the end goal and period of the training program.

Now I make it clear I am not at SASI, however do coach a number of junior programs. Most 'elite' programs will have a specific goal and different times of the year to be 'peaking'. Most would have an undulating periodized program. 77411, notes they are tired now... have you considered the time of year, considering when junior nationals (18/16s) are they may be in an 'overreaching' period (ps have a professional explain the difference between overreaching and overtraining to you, i haven't got the time or patience).

you state "IMO the elite level program doesn't improve the fitness, skill levels or performance of these youngsters"... if it doesn't do these things why is it still running? and what does it do?

Before you are quick to bag a program check it out, ask questions as to what physiological response (how/why)they are trying to elicit; then make an informed post (your comments may then be valid, as i said i am not involved) as to why it is unsafe.

As a side note to any 'athletes' in the program, when designing a program it is important to know what other activity you are involved in,so if you are at SASI or similar make sure they know, so they can make an informed decision when designing your program.

Reply #77634 | Report this post


ITA  
Years ago

damn no one is going to read that novel!

Reply #77637 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

No typo, purely a mistake. I thought it was SAIS rather than SASI (well I am sorry)

South Australian Institute of Sport as apposed to South Australian Sports Institute, huge mistake there.

I was only ever giving an opinion on how I though it should be, what was the best procedure for students who were at the risk of doing to much during that year 11 and year 12 period to over come burn out. How to get the best out of an athlete and still incorporate a healthy study environment, what was the best situation for them to develop in. I never once said that I was some expert or had all the answers (if I did SHOW ME) and I never said it was the be all and end all. It was simply my opinion

My opinion is that under 12, 14 and 16 should do SASI training and develop the needed skills before there body develop and get into positioning training (PG, and PF and C) from under 18 if they are good enough they should go to the AIS and this is the elite level they should be striving for. Explain it to me how a 17 year old that is not in the AIS but is a scholarship holder at the SASI would make a career out of basketball? Is the likely hood of them playing NBL or going to a USA college there? If not in my opinion it would be best if they put that extra time in their studies or getting a trade qualification for later in life. If you don't agree that fine as it my opinion and that all.

Once again simply my opinion, if a child wants to become a champion at any sport they have to start from a very young age and dedicate there life to that, and that was my very first point, the same has to apply to education for someone who wants to become a doctor or a lawyer, they need to take the correct subjects in from year 8. But that simply my opinion and take it as you like.


Before I go, it was an opinion¬hing more, nothing less.

Reply #77642 | Report this post


Werner Linde  
Years ago

ITA - overreaching is only of benefit if it is followed by a recovery period of suitable length to allow full recovery. I think that this may be the point of this thread, i.e recovery is not taken into account enough.

Reply #77643 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

barry richardson, werner linde wonder how many other blasts from the past we will see here.

Reply #77653 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i've been in the sasi program and i think it enhanced my basketball skills and fitness, once i left sasi at the age of 17 i noticed my skills dropped and my fitness dropped and injuries started to occur. so i think at the age of 16, 17 and 18 is wen u should be training as much as possible. and to reach the highest level all it comes down to is training if u dont train hard u wont make it.

Reply #77654 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't care how good you are; you must not commit to sport to the detriment of getting the best education you can get for a possible fall back position.

You might be the next MJ but what happens when you do your knee several times in two years?? What do you fall back on.

What do you think the ratio is of potential juniors to people who reach NBL/European League/NBA and then what do you think is the ratio of people in the NBL who can make enough money or set themselves up to have a decent lifestyle for the rest of their life.

I played state football as a teenager. But it was quite a simple choice when it came to a choice between work/study and football - football came third. I was not a gambler with my future and am now comfortably making more money than I ever could have expected playing football.

DO NOT PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET.

Reply #77658 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe,

The problem is that your opinion does not hold with relation to current developmental theory. And it does not hold with the current success this country is having under our format. And finally, IMO if you want to come on here and put forward your opinion you need to be able to back it up with facts and results. Otherwise I could have the opinion that the sky is Red, and so long as I maintain that is true without facts, you cannot prove otherwise.

And considering we have produced the Best Female player in the World as well as the Best U/21 Male player in the World. And by that I am talking about the Australian ITP Program for Junior basketball. I would suggest that we are doing well. Considering our 20M population.

Players in U/12 do NOT get enough benefit out of extra training session. At U/14 level only those players who are physically mature would, and even then, only those with higher mental ability would be able to sustain and improve from more than 2 trainings without becoming "burnt out". This is due to their needing to play different sports. Not until somebody reaches 15 can their bodies and minds deals with and improve from extra individual and team sessions because they become easily bored with the necessary repetative technique instruction to perfect a skill to an elite level.

Jason Williams, Scott Ninnis, Nathan Hawkes, Paul Rogers, Brett Wheeler, Darren Ng and Matt Illman all had varying success at the Elite level. All didn't go to the AIS and none would have been considered elite level players as 17 year olds. In fact, of the above, only Darren was good enough to make State U/18's.

Reply #77659 | Report this post


Indiana  
Years ago

Straight from the horses mouth!!

Reply #77660 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#77658

Nobody is saying put all your eggs in one basket.

Darren Ng was able to get into Medicine and Angela Marino into Law and they both had a large commitment level including State and SASI through year 12.

Reply #77662 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

Is there a condition to SASI training that everyone must be enrolled in school, TAFE or have some sort of employment in someway? If there isn't any sort of deal between the SASI and the player why not

You have 2 or 3 examples of success (and it very admirable for Ng and Marino to have that success) but how many have fallen away and are apart of the long term unemployment in this country or find it very difficult to develop employment skills?

Reply #77665 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I'd suggest that Darren Ng is of a minority who is gifted and very well-disciplined (and a trade-hoarder in fantasy NBA). I don't know that you can tell the majority of kids that they can safely expect to take on a significant workload and leave year 12 with exceptional marks while pouring a tonne of time into sport. Sure, there are some who can do it, but I think 77658 makes a fair point.

Reply #77667 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe M,

I thought you were an expert on SASI and the effects it has on players? So should I ask you that question?

I would say on a whole, and this is supported by literature. Players in high level sport genreally have better time management skills than other people. I am sure you would find that SASI graduates have a higher level of scholastic and employment success than people who do not conduct high level sport.

The commitment level is decisded by family and athlete. If a family does not care about an individuals education level that is their perogative. If the same family is concerned about the effect SASI is having on their studying ability, they can stop, nobody can make them do it.

Reply #77672 | Report this post


Joe M  
Years ago

#77672 when did I ever insinuate that I was a SASI expert?

Please find the post number? Or are you simply taking my words out of context

Please find it so I can read it.

Reply #77674 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe,
At least anonymous HAS 2 or 3 examples of success - that's 2 or 3 examples MORE than you have provided!!

Reply #77676 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Joe

Starting to get a bit defensive are we.

1/ "to be an 'lite athlete on a world stage' you have to be in an elite sporting program by the time your 15 or 16 year of age,"

2/ "SAIS is a very important stage in basketball development but it should be for under 12,14 and 16's once a player gets to 16 years of age the have to decide what they are going to do."

3/ "Unless you are in an elite sporting program like the Australian institute of sport (and much to some people chagrin SASI is not an elite program)"

If you are going to be making statements about something and saying that you know better than the people running it. Then would you not consider yourself to be an expert?

You obviously have no idea about the subject and still want to have your opinion heard. But if you are going to write soemthing that is obviously wrong, people are going to shoot you down.

You have by your own admission never been an elite level athlete. Nor been involved in etlite level, nor feeder programs. So why do you consider your opinion of any value?

Therefore why get offended when somebody with greater education and experience on the subject tells you that you are wrong. And my opinion is that your opinion is incredibly out of date, and ignorant. And my opinion is that I can tell people that you are wrong because you are talking nonsence.

Reply #77680 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon (77672)

You are right it is an individuals's and parents" perogative to do what they like. Unfortunately there are many parents who believe the hype over their child and continue to push them down a dead-end road. For every one child that ends up making a living out of sport their are hundreds who do not. Some parents have blinkered views of the capabilities of their child and do them a dis-service by not balancing sport with education.

Anon (77676)

People will always highlight the exceptional and try to draw the long bow conclusion that it is the norm. Yes their are 2 or 3 named people who are exceptional and should be congratulated. Iam not going to name names for those who do not measure up to these lofty standards. If you want names look at all past persons who have been in SASI or AIS and ask yourself where are they now.

Reply #77681 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #77681

Then we are not talking about the 'burn out'problems associated with SASI and elite level sport, but more with parental attitudes in sport and society.

And again, ready literature on high level athlete, generally they have higher standards of scholastic success than non-elite level athlete's.

Reply #77685 | Report this post


TK  
Years ago

My son spent 3 years in the US. Did 2 years in highschool and 1 year on scholarship in college. Their rules are fairly clear in that they are only allowed to train and play between certain times of the year. B/ball is a winter sport before and after that they have no structured training or playing. As such can catch up on studies and it seems to work very well. It allows for the young body to recover.

Reply #77686 | Report this post


ITA  
Years ago

Werner Linde I am well aware of the physiological processes that take place.

Thankyou. But the point i was making is that most people are commenting they know someone is tired so they must be doing too much. As i said i am not involved in the SASI program so i dont know. But i was making the suggestion that they look at the program as a whole and ask questions before they dismiss it as burnout.

As i said i dont know the program but am sure at that level they would take it into account and have their program design appropriately periodized or they would not have that job?

Reply #77693 | Report this post


SB  
Years ago

I should weigh in on the debate here with some actual facts and stats.

The SASI group that I toured with in 1998, I think had about 20 boys and girls who had all basically completed Year 12 that year.

Of that group Oscar, Jacob, Daniel Cioffi, Darren Ng in the boys (and Caroline Nixon plus maybe others, sorry my recollection is worse than Mark Vaile at times!) are either making a living or have made a living from the sport. Katrina Lindner and Leah Cannon have/will get 4 year degrees at US College (and probably more that I can't remember).

What was remarkable was that while we were in Europe they got their Year 12 results and had some idea of their university placements as a result. An incredibly high percentage were going to uni the following year (around 80% from memory). There weren't many who were not! Those that weren't had a trade or an apprenticeship lined up. I can only think of 1 player who had a problem. (I know because we all gave him stick, saying he was going to be a homeless bag lady, jokingly of course!).

Now I know that was probably a good year, but it illustrates the point that most people who are posting on this topic with any experience are making. Yes, it's hard and not enjoyable at times, but it is worthwhile and even if they all don't "make it" the skills they learn will help them be better students, athletes, workers, mothers, fathers etc in the future.

If you compare the kids doing high level sport programs (any sport not just basketball) with the average student, they generally do better in their academics and their future vocation and lives because of being in these high level programs. They need to work hard, be organised, able to cope with adversity etc or else they just aren't able to do it.

The ITC (SASI in SA) program nationally takes a holistic (yes I know, buzzword here!) approach to the person's development. Goal setting and progress are measured on and off the court. The diary is the central tool used by the athlete and coach to help the athlete through the year. It is very detailed and is checked regularly by the coaches and guidance is given to help athlete's cope with the workload. Most cope very well, some don't. But most are better in the future, whether they "make it" or not for having done it. When I was a head ITC coach, the majority of my time was not spent on-court. The largest chunk of my time was spent helping with the non-basketball side of the athlete's lives.

From a club point of view, many (if not all) clubs help manage the workload for players very well. They counsel the player to get a manageable workload through the year. My club ceratinly does. An example is that many of our players involved in State in the past have not done any club training for a month prior and post nationals. Not many have been involved in seniors until Year 12 is over. Those that have been have been carefully monitored.

There are many people posting here expressing their opinion, which is fine, it's a free country. But some of the opinions are misinformed. I hope this post is informative and corrects some of the misconceptions.

To summarize, most athlete's involved in high-level programs ARE better off in their future lives, regardless of whether or not they end up as full-time professional sports people. This fact is indisputable.

Reply #77694 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I thought Darren Ng was absent frm Basketball while he was doing Year 12.

Okay lets look at Someone doing Year 12, a female, SASI, State, Under 18's and ABA the training times that are required.

SASI - One night Training
and you are suppose to do weights twice a week and SASI Gym.

STATE Training Twice a week for 2 hours (Sat & Sun) plus as the a time get closer to the Nationals a mid week game.

Your Club Un18's if your Coach is okay with it 1 training a week but as you get to the Club Championship
an extra session is thrown in no matter how good the coach is. Don't forget your friday game.

ABA - Cause if you are any good you have to start having a bit of contact with the ABA. So 2 trainings a week plus the game on saturday night.

Also what is you want to prastice a bit yourself.

Besides going to school and completing assignments you might get a bit of free time somewhere between 2.00 am and 3 am.

Lighten the load. Which one? State the coach will chew you out and call you a whimp.

SASI - who would dare?? not to forget that weight trainings.

Your Club Under 18's - weel isn't that a stepping stone for the state

ABA that is your future especial if you wont to go anywhere in basketball - you need to be explosed at this level.

Then you must have recovery.

See everyone wants a bit of you they don't look at the BIG PICTURE they only worry about their domain and carry on should you not make their trainngs.
Now if you are an above average player but wont to make it you HAVE to please everyone so you can be given a go.

And you reckon you don't get burn out. YOU a Dreaming

Reply #77696 | Report this post


Cat in the Hat  
Years ago

Anon #77696

Correct. All three Ng boys had a year off of basketball to complete Year 12.

Reply #77697 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

77696

I forgot to mention the time taken travelling to all the training Stadiums so what might be 2 hours ends up being 3 hours plus. Pluss Joe M I didn't mention my name cause I ain't going to be screwed over

Reply #77699 | Report this post


SB  
Years ago

Darren went on 2 SASI trips, I'm not sure of his exact commitments during Year 12, but he did pretty well at school as we all know. The point is that most athletes in high-level programs do well and better than the average Joe or Jill.

I can say is that in my experience, most (but not all) athletes manage their time well and cope. It's not easy, but they cope. Remember year 11/12 is tough on everyone, athlete or not!

They also do better if they have great support from their families, clubs, coaches (club, SASI and State). In my experience the above scenario is not the norm, however it does occur.

What if it does?

Want some free advice, drop seniors. It will be there next year. (Senior coaches please don't jump on me for this one!)

Plan a schedule which allows one week night free of commitments, even if it means one night is the "night from hell". This does wonders (for players and coaches!). Don't say it can't be done, it can. If it can't something must go!

Also remember that not everything goes all year. Use your Year Planner in a diary to plan schedules for each month for the whole year in advance. For year 12, there is hardly any basketball in October and November when it is the most important time scholastically.

Talk to your coaches, they are probably more willing to accomodate than you think. Bear in mind that the State coach probably can't be very flexible and the club junior coach is in the same boat until after State Champs / Classics. If not, your club coaching director may be in a position to help out by liaising between coaches involved in the conflicting programs.

A wise man once said that for every problem there is a solution.

Reply #77701 | Report this post


pickles housemate  
Years ago

Take a look at the U21 competition -Most if not all coaches allow players leeway with exams, SWOTVAC, "Schoolies", etc.

As SB says, something's gotta give. If you are doing SACE II and you're overloaded with basketball and school, you can drop ABA for a start. 2ndly, I would suggest that you negotiate with your friday night district coach.

Can i also state that i believe that getting out of the sudy/bedroom/kitchen and away from the books for basketball training is often a great "head-clearer" for school students. (oops, again pointing out the benefits of sport).

Simply, talk to your support network (parents, coaches, friends, older players who've juggled it before).

Reply #77750 | Report this post


pickles housemate  
Years ago

Ooops... I meant study!

Reply #77753 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Werner Linde
I'm glad someone understands what this is about: recovery, and mainly for U16s and U18s.

It is not about managing workloads or exeptional examples or whether Darren Ng basketballed through y12 or not. It is also not about the benefits of elite sport in shaping soemones attitude in life & attitudes.

Last year U 16 B came 10th. Not good enough and I've heard fatigue was a major factor. U16 girls 6th. U18 men came 7th, U 18 women 2nd. The latter is good, but the whole picture isn't.

Recovery's the problem here...

For example: U16s are going straight into TI camp after playing 2 tough games per day during each of three days of the easter carnival. Not enough recovery time, and there are scores of such examples.

Reply #77765 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon (77685),

There are studies everywhere. I would think that English premier league soccer players would be considered elite sports people. A study conducted approx a decade ago determined that their average IQ was x% lower than the general public. I know numerous students who are not sportspeople at all who consistently won academic awards. To me the issue is: How does an elite sportsperson with an IQ of x perform scholastically with a non elite sportsperson with the same IQ.

Reply #77780 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #77765

The U/16 State team last year were hit by a major sickness. They also did not perform well at U/14 Nationals. That same group lost 2 game at Pt Mac. Maybe they just are not a good group compared to previous years! If you do not know the full picture then your opinion is full of holes.

What you are saying is that none of our players should consider going to the AIS becasue they are incapable to train at that level. The training program that produced Bogut and Schensher has players doing twice as much at a much higher level of intensity than our kids.

Lack of recovery, have you spoken to the State coach about what type of recovery they are plannig to do in the preperation? What understanding of recovery do you yourself have?

I would say no, and none. But of corse your opinion is important. (insert sarcasm here). My opinion is that you have no idea.

Reply #77784 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon. 77696
"ABA - Cause if you are any good you have to start having a bit of contact with the ABA."

Couldn't disagree more with this one (and I am involved with seniors). People are selected for All-Australian Camps and further (AIS etc.) primarily based on their results in junior championships (16/18 Nats) rather than any senior basketball they play. Seniors should be the LAST thing added to the plate, and only if they can handle all of their junior commitments on top of their school/job commitments.

Reply #77786 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I have just read this thread from start to finish. I am now going to have a lie down. I am BURNT OUT and need to recover.

Reply #77788 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

(#77780) - was that study done in conjunction with the study that conclusivly proved that the majority of professional soccer players will develop some form (minimal to mild) of brain damage, due to continually 'heading' a ball?

Cat in the hat - wrong. The Ng's boys did not take

"a year off of basketball to complete Year 12."

They may have put district on hold, but they still played school ball. 2 trainings + 1 game per week.

Reply #77790 | Report this post


Cat in the Hat  
Years ago

#77790

You are of course correct - the boys all continued to play school ball, as was expected of them. But they all took a year off from district ball to allow more time to study. Not saying this is the right thing to do or not, as I really have no opinion on this, but that's what happened.

Reply #77810 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Marcus tool a year off to recover from an ACL reconstruction. And they were all in a postition where they were doing Year 11 during U/18 State. This does not hold for a majority of players. They would be in only 1/4 of the SA population that does year 12 as U/20's. They continued to play club ball but didn't have State or SASI commitments becasue of their age, not due to their decision.

Reply #77814 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

this is silly. dont worry about the ng detail; analysing whether they played or not; why, how, where they played etc. the rest is a good discussion though.

Reply #77815 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

re re: Burnout (#77765) and re: Burnout (#77784)

Both of you are imo correct in various issues. The trouble here in SA is we expect the players to achieve Gold Medals while running on a tin can budget when they go away to Nationals. The Eastern States take a TEAM of support with them and go to nationals to win.

Coach and Manager have huge jobs and not enough time to ALSO play Nurse or First Aid to the players every day. Players are also not switched on with proper, good knowledge to tend to illness or injury and get slack at it quickly or dont talk to people (re: Burnout (#77080)). Most parents there watching their kids play know little better.(re: Burnout (#76982))

Many people who have posted above have many good points. Far too many to individualise, but nevertheless, hard , long, intense and vigorous training and success can be achieved with proper daily/weekly management and a total team approach that includes skills, mind and body. Want more, well build a bigger team of specialists to call upon and be there when really needed. Players, speak up without fear abd be honest about your bodies.

Reply #77820 | Report this post


Woftam  
Years ago

We have had the good fortune to experience how coaches at a league football club and a district cricket club treat their juniors from 12 and up and there is no doubt that basketball could learn a whole lot from their philosophy when it comes to looking after kids. They do not appear to have this so called burn out / drop out factor that basketball so often talks about. I think quite simply that the reason burn out occurs (particulary in kids that were outstanding in 12 & 14's) is that when they get t under 16's other kids have "caught up" with them height and talent wise and because there are so many other things in life to do these days, they chose the easiest option. Footy and cricket clubs adopt the approach of they actually want kids playing at the age of 22 at their club senior levels and therefore encourage their juniors to participate in other elite sporting pograms. They are smart enough to understand that the skills and discipline learnt at these other sports are beneficial to the cricket and football skills. My kid plays at a leading club in 14's and I must say that the demands for the level they play are not to bad. 2 trainings and a game a week - 4 hours in all. Throw in a shooting program at home and the commitment is not great. Compare that to footy 2 trainings and game plus school and league development squad - 10 hours. District cricket is about 10 hours with 2 trainings and saturday games - The major difference is what those clubs actually spend on development of the kids - it is amazing. I know BASA have no money but until something is done and we actually start doing some thing for our elite juniors they will just keep leaving the sport in droves.
It is a great topic so keep the discussion going it is healthy for the sport and if we can heed collective ideas and it can only be good for basketball.

Reply #77821 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Footy and cricket clubs adopt the approach of they actually want kids playing at the age of 22 at their club senior levels and therefore encourage their juniors to participate in other elite sporting pograms. "

Interesting. This philosophy could be let them burnout in another sport and we got them for life. This could be considered quite smart. They seem to be successful at doing this too.

Reply #77830 | Report this post


woftam  
Years ago

Quite simply they want the kids to develop other skills in other sports. Refreshing really. None of this head up their arse attitude that is killing BASA and basketball in this state. Bit of a boyz club mentality is'nt it. Big fish in little pond. They even go and watch other sports. What people do not realize is if bball people had a more tolerant attitude to other elite sports, the number of kids playing those sports would come and play basketball at the same level. Surely this would improve the sport. I Did not expect that response from you anon. Ask yourself why is it that not only your club but most others can't keep kids past 16-18 years old. I see it, others see it - experience is a wonderful thing, hopefully as it is gained, ones people skills improve and we talk with people not at them.When you get to 50 like me, perhaps you will too.

Reply #77874 | Report this post


klinger  
Years ago

anyone know the percentage of players that go to sasi,then go on to play nbl

Reply #78029 | Report this post


Steve  
Years ago

What I can not believe is the Easter Carnival has just ended. A great result for some of the SA Teams....I believe now the girls especially as of tomorrow(tuesday) have to attend TI Camp. They are sore and tired and need a break but do they get one??? NO ....4 more days of 8 hours a day....they expect the girls to be agrressive and intense...this is crap give them the holidays off...most of the girls going they are aware of...make TI for the kids who want to be noticed not the kids who have been or have got scholarships...Burnout for sure.....

Reply #78341 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Tournaments are optional.
TI camps are not compulsory, they are optional by invitation only.
If Neil says they are compulsory and you go along with this view then you help to add to the myth of burnout,because as a responsible parent you should say enoughs enough.If your child wants to go dont bitch about it, if they dont, then dont send them.
Life choices.........

Reply #78386 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Problem is: they don't want to get punished for not showing up.

(and, unfortunately, that is how the system works.)

Reply #78389 | Report this post


Dr Damage  
Years ago

THEY DO NOT GET PUNISHED .


WHAT CRAP!

Reply #78390 | Report this post


Steve  
Years ago

but the chosen ones dont...who says they dont have favorites...

Reply #78572 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How are they punished?
Corporal punishment..I dont think so
Verbal lashing...possibly, but is that going to hurt
Excommunicated from sasi....would only be on overall performance..not for not attending one little TI camp

Reply #78591 | Report this post


their mum  
Years ago

Teach children how to incorporate sport/health/fitness as a part of everyday life at a realistic and enjoyable level so that they can STILL be participating in some fitness activity 30 odd years down the track when they are juggling work and family - life actually. Funny how the talk of nuturing "elite" juniors never comes from the mouths of babes.....

Reply #78644 | Report this post


their mum  
Years ago

oh and I forgot to mention the post that read.......
"We have had the good fortune to experience how coaches at a league football club and a district cricket club treat their juniors from 12 and up and there is no doubt that basketball could learn a whole lot from their philosophy when it comes to looking after kids"

you are sooo right! I've got a 12 year old son who has/is involved in cricket, football and basketball, and i can not believe how the attitudes from the cricket/football differ HUGELY from basketball. District cricket ie "invitation only" IS about developing the game via the player, Social cricket is just that - social, heaps of fun, who cares if you get a duck! Football & Cricket do seem to be about preserving and developing the game, basketball seems to be more about player/club development, the game being the actual loser.

Reply #78650 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cricket and Football are only 2nd and third teir sports.

When their funding comes directly from their performance at Olympic and World Championships and see how their attitude changes.

Reply #78654 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Basketball seems to be more of a CULT sport, those in it are obsessed!!

Reply #78682 | Report this post


their mum  
Years ago

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/sportsfactor/stories/2000/102867.htm

a little off topic but interesting all the same, a great radio program on Friday mornings
Radio National 729 "Sports Factor"

Honest question: What is meant by "Cricket and Football are only 2nd and third teir sports", could you explain to me what this actually means in terms of my post, once again this is a genuine question :)

Reply #78805 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

their mum,

Whilst in Australia Crickert and Football dominate media and culutural awareness they are not sports in which the Australian teams are competeing against numerous other World Team to be the best.

No other country in the World plays Aussie Rules Football. And it isn't really played in the 2 biggest States in Australia. Thus it could be considered a 3rd tier sport.

Cricket is played by only 8 countries. And only smallish sporting nationas. So to dominate that sport really isn't that hard.

Basketball would be considered a top tier sport. It is the second most played sport in the World behind only soccer. It is an olympic sport but also has a World Championship.

Our elite level athlete's not only compete against the US, but also countries like Lithuanian and Serbia where basketball is a National sport.

To be able to compete with them need to develop and train our elite level players to the same or greater standard of these countries with far less close competition.

An elite level 17 year old in a country like Serbia will have played close to 20 international games before they turn 17.

To compete with this kind of development we need our athlete's to make the level of endeavor and work rate these countries have.

Reply #78809 | Report this post


Thanks for that above explanation,

I'm going to be completely honest here and I know that this is getting away from the original topic.

You take a kid to a district basketball club because social basketball just isn't helping them to improve etc etc. Problem is Johnny likes to play Sunday footy for his local club in Winter and Sunday cricket in Summer but the district basketball requires Sunday training and the coach says well you will have to choose one or the other. Talk about elitist.

"Basketball" seems to want so much from a person yet we can't even watch it free to air, it costs a family an arm and a leg to go and watch but let's not forget it IS a first tier worldwide sport that will showcase our elite juniors and seniors.

Here lies the problem, whilst "Basketball" continues to put itself above all other sports and effectively reject any other cultural sporting reality then it is going to be all the more poorer for it.

It is such a shame that the structure of baskeball has overshadowed the game itself.

It is great game to watch, it's artistic, athletic and aweinspiring but the structure is arrogant and obsessive.

I can't believe how in just that one post above so many negative things were said about other sports.....

" they are not sports in which the Australian teams are competing against numerous other World Team to be the best"

"Cricket is played by only 8 countries. And only smallish sporting nationas. So to dominate that sport really isn't that hard"


and again we hear about the people of basketball and not the game itself.....
"To compete with this kind of development we need our athlete's to make the level of endeavor and work rate these countries have"

Thank god the bloody footy is on the TV tonight and I don't have to have Foxtell to watch it.

Reply #78908 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

In south australia i dont think the players get burnt out by the age of 17 or so, i think the players realise that they dont have the talent to compete at a high level and eventually loose interest and get bored of getting up every morning not be able to walk due to the years of injuries and abuse on the body. and eventually quit district and just play for fun with friends socially, i noticed noone liked when the woodville boys moved from woodville and made a new team, but u cant blame them for moving on and playing basketball for fun.

Reply #78928 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you read those comments they are actually facts and not negative comments.

Football does not have other countries playing it.

And Cricket has only a few nations which are considered good enough to have 'test' status. Have a look at Gillespie knocking a double ton on Bangladesh. Not really a competitive game.

Reply #78929 | Report this post


Michelle  
Years ago

"And Cricket has only a few nations which are considered good enough to have 'test' status. Have a look at Gillespie knocking a double ton on Bangladesh. Not really a competitive game. "

But it would be fair to assume that even Bangladesh would acknowledge what Gillespie managed in terms of his his role as a night watchman, the hype is not about how much Australia won by, it's about a particular aspect of the game which was unexpected and he was the one repsonsible for it.

Promote basketball participation within our state (let alone country) first at a grass roots level, work it into everyday culture and stop thinking only in world terms - worry about your own backyard first.

My apologies to the original post, I've gone completely off topic.

It is a game I love to watch be it local or world standard but something is obviously not working in the current set up and it's time to start thinking outside the circle (or is that key) :)

Reply #79035 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Michelle,

The cricet reference is that Australia beating countries like Bangladesh, Zimbabwie etc does not mean that they are really doing a great job at developing players or the sport, rather that they are paying countries that will never have high level sporting teams of any kind. If World basketball were played only by the same teams that play World cricket, nobody would care that Australia won. Oh, wait a second didn't we call that the commonwealth games.

My guess is that you are involved in a club which does not have a full time JDO/Development officer but manages to pay their senior teams $25k. Maybe you could go back to your club and ask why they have a debt to BASA but still pay senior players who generate negative income to your club.

And that you have no understanding of international level sport or Australia's success at that level. Or that our 'federal funding' for the sport is actually linked to our performance at the international level.

Comparing basketball to Cricket and Football is non-sensical as it is like comparing cheese and chalk.

Reply #79119 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Exactly Anon (79119). They are like chalk ad cheese. But which is which?? If I was an elite athlete in Australia and I had a choice of chossing one of the three sports to focus my efforts with the view of making a living I would be focussing on AFL first, cricket second and basketball last. Why is it that these 2nd and 3rd tier sports get better coverage, generate more income for their participants, are more tolerant of other sporting activities at a lower age...I guess they get the rewards because they have got it wrong!!!

I think that their mum is spot on. My son is 8, is more developed than my other son at the same age who consistently plays Div 1 basketball but will lose develop years to basketball because he wants to also try football and games are on Sunday morning. We need to come up with a development/training arrangements for young kids to allow them to accommodate as many sports as they can early on in their development. Otherwise you are making kids make a choice at an age when they shouldn't have to. As a result many potential players are lost to basketball as they would prefer/choose to play a game of say footy rather than do defensive slides at training.

Reply #79121 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #79121

I wounder if Luke Schensher's parents had the same thoughts.

Nobody is arguing that there is more opportunity to make a living playing elite level football than basketball.

But my understanding was that people play elite level sport because it is what they enjoy. Especially kids. If they would prefer playing Football to Basketball then they should play Football. If your kid enjoys playing basketball, why would you make them play fooball instead? If they are not enjoying it as much they are more likely to stop playing elite level sport all together.

Anybody can continue playing social basketball and still play other sports!

Reply #79134 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

He enjoys both. Problem is at his age he has a choice of training at basketball or playing games at football as clubs schedule bball training at the same time footy games take place. If clubs want to attract and keep juniors, particularly in the very early, formative years they need to be aware that there are other sporting options out there.

Reply #79199 | Report this post


Michelle  
Years ago

>My guess is that you are involved in a club which does not have a full time JDO/Development officer but manages to pay their senior teams $25k.......
And that you have no understanding of international level sport or Australia's success at that level. .....>

Well anon, you guess wrong because I am not involved in a club, have though had experience with a (district) club a few years back and the choice to play footy won out over the Sunday morning training (one basketball midweek training at 9/10 yrs of age is not enough it would seem), so we continued on with the domestic/social basketball games instead, in fact our summer season social basketball team now consists of all Under 12 footballers who use the game as off season fitness, it's worked out well from a time management point of view.

And the talk of JDO officer...now you are making my brain hurt-too much information thanks -keep it simple please.
(Although our social cricket club has a mum who is doing a great job as the junior development officer)

Yep you are right, I don't know anything about international sport as I said I'm interested in Junior particiption before I start dreaming about the big time.

Look, all I am trying to say is let all kids have the chance to develop their basketball skills and partciipation at a young age while they are also having a go at footy, cricket, little athlectics, going to church, what ever, and sure when they get a bit older then let them choose one over the other if they want to become elite etc to that one sport.

Reply #79460 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Michelle,

District basketball is not participation. School/church/social basketball in participation level basketball.

Why are you complaining about not being able to play in elite level competition when you have proven your own criticism wrong by being able to have your child play social?

You want all the benefits of the trainings without being willing to even turn up when it is suiitable to the other 99% of people.

Either play district or play football and socail basketball!

but dont argue that you want your kid to be able to play both but have it suit your time table but NOT that of the oter 99% of people. Becasue that is narcissistic.

Reply #79463 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Above post, sorry I have got it all wrong. I did not realise that district basketball automatically refers or identifys as elite basketball as opposed to just participation in Church/Social games- my mistake and obvious ignorance.
I've seen a lot district players out at social games and have seen some district games myself where other family members are playing but I did not realise that all district players are elite because they are not merely "particpating".

Yes I want the benefits of the district training and yes it is unfortunate for me that district basketball has the game on Saturday and one of its two trainings on Sunday morning which leaves no weekend time for anything else but as you have pointed out this District setup is elite and I fully agree that to become elite you need to decide which sport but it's just a bit dissapointing that a 10 yr old had to choose between the two.

So does that mean that all those players regardless of where they end up 10-20 years down the track are all elite because they chose District basketball over "particpation basketball"?

I obviously have completely misunderstood what this basketball game is all about. I do one sport only myself but that is for personal fitness and fulfillment.
Yes I see what you are saying, can't have my cake and eat it too.

I'm tired of this, I promise not to come back, good luck to all the district players and their families with the turmoil that clouds your elite sport, guess that could explain the increase in district teams coming out to also play socially.

Reply #79755 | Report this post


waynes fan  
Years ago

79755, your sarcastic comments show your actual opinion is something I agree with.

The definition that district basketball been an elite level is put forward by a number of coaches and administrators on this forum that have delusions of grandure of the level they are at. District basketball (especially U10 - U14s)is not Elite. Div 1 & 2 level (especially U10 - U14s) is preparation for the elite but its not elite. Elite is the "best of the best" IE national representation, state programs or nbl programs.

As soon as we realise that elite and district levels are not the same thing the better participation and growth of basketball will be.

From what I have seen, it seems that the controllers of BSA (EG Wayne Jackson) understand where local basketball fits in the national scheme so hopefully some positive things will be implemented.

Reply #79768 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

District is elite because the competition has the best of the best.

Sturt's U/14 Boys were crowned National Champions last year. That is elite.

The problem you are referring to is that the competition has grown to also provide a participation component. Under regonalisation and pro/rel you would have the opportunity to divide the elite from the participation. Hence the current problem.

But that is not to say that trainings will change from Sundays which was one persons concerns. And their sarcasm shows that they cannot accept that things will not work out in their best interests. But will ratrher involve what is best for the majority and therefore the best for the sport. And it is noted that an alternative has not been given, rather just a compaint made.

Reply #79776 | Report this post


odin  
Years ago

I have some concern about the two classification system in use, if your not elite, your participation. hmmm seems too black and white, personally I think there are in fact 3 levels, Participation, elite and competetive. Its the competetivie ranks that feed the elite competetion, thats why IMHO div 3 4 and 5 flourish, because these people are competetive , and want to compete to the best of there ability, that may not get them a div one spot, but they play against there peers to win, not to participate. to term them as participitory is perhaps condesending.
Particpatory In my mind alludes to non competetive, "lets not score that way every body wins, after all were just here to particpate"
mercy rule's & forced rotation "lets make sure evryone gets an even run" etc etc etc
which may be true for some but not everyoine whos isn't in the 'elite' level.
there is a need for this as well, but with only two levels are we being a little too elitist ?

just my 2c

Reply #79954 | Report this post


>best for the majority and therefore the best for the sport. And it is noted that an alternative has not been given, rather just a compaint made. >

Ok I just can't help myself but come back to answer this statement, I'll admit it's a bugbear with me, silly me I know.

I think I must be on a different planet because I obviously have such a different opinion but here goes...

(I'm talking age group under10/11)

Firstly I think it would be a responsible and smart move if the powers to be of basketball (basa, bsa whomever) decided to promote the sport to the best of all abilities if they truly believe in the game.

Whilst Saturday games/Sunday training does suit the majority already within that infrastructure, there is also a majority who can't participate because of many reasons (and I'm not in all of them) such as other sport, church, parents who have split, parents who work on weekends etc etc. How many players and parents are you not getting on board because of this? Surely the current state of the sport could only be bolstered if more people were given the chance to be part of it?

This is a genaral overview of what I have experienced so far from (social)cricket & football clubs:
You have one mid week training (that changes around the Under 12) and one game on Sunday, if you look like you should be developed further you get invited (as was the way with district basketball some 20 years ago)to go to association (football) or district (cricket)and of course you can expect more training requirements/commitments. (You might start thinking about playing one sport only at this level)

Why can't district basketball offer in say Div 3, 4.......one midweek training only and those who show promise to be further developed and want to then go into div 1, 2 and be asked to do the extra Sunday training?

With so much money going into the infrastructure shouldn't it be made available to as many people as possible which will help recoup costs and just maybe keep it afloat.

- Michelle
(must have been a moment of madness to use my real name eh?)




Reply #80075 | Report this post




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