hey anon, thats a great write up and its very true, i had to report someone for abuse tonight and thats y i only ref 1 night of senior and only friday nights for BASA district. Also who are u anon

for many reasons im going to leave it at anon, there are alot of people that dont like me, especially @ certain 'SOUTHERN' clubs. but i have been umpiring now for almost 10 years, nad have a level 2 grading. what i find.. well amusing to say the least is a spectator that is the best part of 20 meters away from the actions can see what is going on, but when your 2 meters away you have idea what you are on about. i know after what i saw in the last 2 weeks im inclinded to do 1 of 2 things,

1) register with SA Country as i have not yet registered with BASA their insurance for umpires is a joke.

2) go to stadiums and film some of the filth that is seen @ a basketball stadium and make it available online on put a link here and bring it to the attention of basketball australia. it is a joke.

the clubs sholud be held responsible for their players coaches and followers, to that extent reporting is useless as 'politics' normally come into play and if the reported person has 'friends' they get off scott-free i believe a monatery penalty needs to be put in place, most clubs cant afford it, perhaps it will make them get off their asses and do something about it.

but with that i must say, well done sturt, you so far have a GREAT headstart on cutting the abuse out. there is still some problem people but, thankyou
-anon

sorry, no im not. but i dont blame that ref for being arrogant, for tha abuse that all umpires endure

but i must say that is a typical 'player/coach/spectator' response

but the point i was trying to make here has been mis-construde.

everyone has a couple of options
a) stop the abuse and crap that happens during everynight of district

b) start becoming a qualified umpire not someone that 'thinks' they know the rules that in fact doesnt know/understand advantage/disadvantage of the concept of 'the spirit of the game'

because soon enough basa will have underqualified 12/13y.o. umpiring seniors because they dont know the abuse they will recieve.

most SA Country stadiums have 'the heckler' in the crowds but abuse is not tolerated, its time for BASA to get off their ass and fix it...

the zero-tolerance policy was a good start. where did it go? did it just 'fizzle' away????

it all needs to be kept into perspective.

if this was the workplace - the bullying would see many coaches sacked re the way they talk to refs.

on the other hand accountability would be required more by the refs.

if a coach has new junior player make a mistake - do they uncontrollably yell at them?

maybe - but usually hell no - as they want to maintain a harmonious relationship

but we try to blood an new ref - and it is open season on them

being a ref myself - I am prepared to cop deserved shit - as long as a few plaudits come my way when a good call is made.

give and take - what goes around comes around

i have to agree with that to an extent, everyone wants to see their children/brother/sister etc succeed. but then again is there ever a group of spectators that shout and scream @ the players for missing a shot? HELL NO! its apart of the game. the players are human, so are the umpire we all make mistake.

There were some refs that wanted to place a zero tolerance on abuse. Anything said by coaches and players is a tech. BASA did not want this put in place and now they are wandering where all the refs are. I agree that I myself as a coach needs to shut up and let the refs ref the game. Here here for a ref speaking his view.

BRING BACK ZERO TOLERANCE

spot on - the referee is an official and deserves the respect of the others present

the official has power within the structure of basketball and needs to use it in a befitting manner

same as a coach, stadium manager etc

the zero tolerance was an official BASA scheme, thus the yellow and red cards were bought out, but it is my belief that not all stadiums implimented this scheme, it is a pity, and for some stadiums it was working to a degree. for some time @ pasadena stadium on a friday night there was very little abuse towards the ref and when there was the UIC (graham burdon) handled it with flying colors. but unfortunatley at the moment the UIC is quiet often having to umpire a game or two because of the shortage therefore leaving a whole stadium open for 'flood water' to spew forth.

there are both good and bad with all clubs, by no means am i saying that the southern tigers are the worst. and by no means am i 'anti-tigers' i just get sick of the same repitive sindrome that happens everytime i go umpiring. what some people do not seem to understand that while a player will goto a stadium and play 1 game, the umpires will be there for hors after, or already have been there for hours and are tired, grumpy, and sick of the abuse. its not fair that the last game of the night the umpire will be in a foul mood from the previous games but it happens. and that game will suffer.

for me to umpire 3 ro 4 games in one night will wipe me out for 1/2 of the following day, generally i will be hardly able to move, let alone have energy to do anything. i agree with a prior comment, at the moment its nice when u get a great game and the coach thanks you, its even great when the players thank you. but that shoud be a standard. win, loose, draw, hate the umpire during the game. well he/she did not have to come out tonight. some people fail to understand the umpires are there to enjoy the game aswell. its becoming to a point where you dont get enjoyable games.

another solution is to give all clubs a course on umpiring for coaches, i am aware fo the coaching courses, im not sure what they detail but it shoudl be essential for coaches to not only understand the rules but also see it from an umpires point of view

People, I brought the referee situation up in my meeting with the 36ers/BASA Management team yesterday.

Whilst Neil Poulton (Director of Referee's) wasnt present, Colin Thompson who runs the local compeitions certainly was.

If you have specific examples of harrasment or bullying of referees, please contact either Neil or Colin, so they can be aware of the issue, and work towards rectifying it.

Just having a vent on a forum wont get anything done.

but to what point? i have gone through the tribunal system. they are useless. i wouldnt mind having a chat with either of them, i will add it to my 'to-do' list for tomorrow.

but all the idea's put forth here have also been bought to rod's attention before his illness approximately 3 years ago and here we are today still with the same problems.

yogge, sorry i know this may be going on about a point, but althought the umpires need to let basa know the trouble-some teams, but i also believe there is an onus of responsibility on BASA to do something about it, to get out there. evaluators are never out on friday night games, in 9 years i have been evaluated 5 times. the umpires have been complaining, but never listened to. its like its always 'oh the refs are complaining again, lets give them another 5 cent pay rise.'

the refs have been complaining and i can think of 5 refs off hand off the top of my head without having to think for longer than 2 seconds who are fed up with complaining, who are fed up with the tribunal system, that are fed up with BASA, its clubs and their refusal to fix a long existing problem. its not like basa dont know its a problem yet nothing is being done to fix it.

perhaps another 'forum' is needed to be held @ the dome, that is open to umpires, coaches, players, spectators and the BASA 'powers that be' to try and resolve this problem, bring it to a head, lay down a new rule AND ENFORCE IT! i will be telling neil this aswell tomorrow oh and also highlighting to NOT post the notifications the day before, that way people actually know its on ahead of time rather than after it has happened.

Do we need these rules in place? In my experiences, players, coaches, spectators can all be handled in some way to come out of a game feeling good. If any give you grief, manage the situation accordingly. If they are smart asses use technical fouls wisely on the players and coaches. If they are spectators... just show them the door. What spectator won't leave when the result of the game is hanging above their head? I am by no means encouraging technical fouls or calling off games, but you sometimes have to manage these situations better. I am no means the best referee going around town, but I can't remember the last technical I gave anyone, and that is due to the way I manage situations (and having a bad memory of the last Technical). Communication is the biggest worry I have with most officials. The ones that struggle to communicate because they get too angry, frustrated, or just cannot communicate to a player/coach/spectator seem to have these problems. So maybe it is up to that referee to work out a way he/she can communicate better to resolve these hostile situations in a proper and professional manner. That's my 2 cents

I offer to those referees who are disillusioned - come speak to me over the course of the long weekend.

As a travelled spectator, I am increasingly fed up hearing some of the clap crap people verbalise to umpires and players, at both junior and senior levels. Have umpires tell every player and coach at every game that both their behaviour AND that of their spectators are now on notice, one warning and then TECH the bench! Second time, have them removed from the stadium. That will get the message across real quick. Stop being soft and complaining, just do it. There is no room for some of the language or behaviour I have seen and heard over the past 6 months.... it seems to be getting worse in some stadiums!

Graeme LeBroy - you pose a very good point where you highlight communication as a key point. I have been a ref for close on a decade, local competition and BASA, and the umpires that have received the least abuse have been those that are very good communicators. Even if their technical knowledge isn't as good as another refs, an unmpire who can converse or explain situations/calls to a player/coach will be much better respected and receive less abuse. Perhaps BASA could intigate some communication programs for umpires, and help them develop their skills in that disciple.

yogee, what happenned in the meeting?

Thought I'd put my two bobs worth in on this one, lol........To err is human and as an umpire, yes we make mistakes BUT there is a big difference between a bit of banter and abuse. I think most of us get white line fever with any sport. The spectators need to understand that the umpire sees a whole different ballgame from where they are on the court. With the view from where the spectators sit, of course they are going to see things differently.......it is a different perspective. To all of those who don't umpire and profess to know the rules better (than those of us who do get out there and umpire so your kids can play), please feel free to take a course and get your accreditation, it might give you a whole new outlook on what an umpire has to go through each game.

I love the game of basketball, I love reffing basketball...It was taken away from me!

I'm back now, and I wanna get back to the level I was at (2003 U18 Nationals).

But, I just think that spectators should understand that while your child loves playing, we do love umpiring.

If you shout abuse at a referee for making a mistake, then why don't you shout abuse at a player for missing a shot? Is it that the child's parents will have a go at you? Why don't you shout abuse at a coach for not calling a time-out earlier, or for making the wrong sub? Is it that your child won't get as much court time?

Everybody says that they don't like smart-arse refs. Well then, treat the refs as you want to be treated.

Next time you go to abuse a referee, just think that it's your child out there refereeing at would you do that to your own child...Then why would you do that to someone else's child?

We love the game as much as your children do. If we decide not to umpire (due to abuse), then eventually, your children won't have a game to play - a game that they love!

I love the game of basketball... Nobody can understand what I went through last yr, except for me! And I wanna come back! I'm feeling the itch, I just don't have the fitness yet to run an entire game! I could come out and still ref it - with my head. Why don't I - cos I can't run an entire game. It would be unfair to go out there and ref when I am not 100%. IT'S UNFAIR ON THE PLAYERS!

How's that? I bet nobody would have ever thought that a ref thinks about the players! How about I had to turn down the opportunity to ref at 2004 Under 18 Nationals because it would be unfair on the players to have a ref that wasn't well? Again, a ref thinking about players.

If anybody wants to know what happened to me - I DON'T HAVE A LARGE INTESTINE!

If we can all just think before we say and/or do (AND THIS GOES FOR THE REFS ASWELL!!!), then basketball will return to how it was! Do it for the love of the game!

jacket...i am halfway through typing up my report on what happened at the meeting, and should have it up tomorrow (I hope)...or at least sometime over the weekend.

Matt, I miss you so much! Please take me back! Eating just isn't the same without you here.

So funny "Matt's Large Intestine"!

Who are you? Or are you suffering from a disease known as "lack of testicle-itis"?

I appreciate the joke, and wanna congratulate you of good humour!

Gotta pay it!

I have the utmost respect for refs. But its interesting to hear the refs saying that they make mistakes. Being involved with bball for a long time I have only seen one correctable call.

I think some refs consider this to be a sign of weakness if they change their call, but I think it is a strength. (Not to be influenced from rabble on the sidelines but if they know after thinking about it, their initial call was wrong).

Keep up the good work.

Matt, the intestine comment was me -- sorry! It's payback for all the movie quotes.

That's fine Isaac!

All good mate!

i agree with everyone's comment here, week after week i go out umpiring, not knowing if i will be able to walk out of the stadium that night.. let me explain this one. a couple of years ago i had both of my knees collapse on me whislt umpiring and have been coming and goin from umpiring ever since with injury. i have made it as far as div 2 metro primarily because of this.

some players/coaches say that they do not like arrogant/abusive umpires. i will admin that sometimes i am, but only when it is the way i am being treated. and do the players/coaches like it. no they dont. if only everyone in BASA could see what is in this thread, and could action it, it would make the risk that i take each time i walk onto the court that much more pleseant.

oh and btw, my injury was not covered by BASA's insurance as cory told me afterwards, after i had seen a doc, after the MRI scans and xrays, and i still have to have pain killers before some games especially in winter. for those of you who have no respect for umpires. think of it this way, no (qualified) umpires mean either you have in-experienced refs on your games, or no refs. and to the spectators, before yelling out what you think is the call, think of this, most friday night umpires are level 1 (thats 2 umpiring courses) some are level 2 or panel (level 2 course was invitational until start 2005) and they will all have rule books either with them or at home, they have read them. have you ever seen a rule book? im sure 50% of all spectators have never seen a rule book, and most likely 65% have never been to a course on the rules.

just because you have been around basketball for a long time does not mean you know the rules, look at Anonymous'es example above about how their child told them they are wrong.

and Graeme LeBroy, these rules (or something like it) need to be inplace to help the up coming umpires that do not know how to handle the crowds/coaches and even tho i have been umpiring for the best part of 10 years they still get to you. even Sharon Browne whom i was a close friend of said that before she left BASA. she was one of the better umpires IMHO.

sorry for the double post but i forgot 1 issue many have said show the spectators the door, tech the players/coaches. to what extent? if there was an award for the number of techs given out by a ref i would have to be up there. in the last 3 weeks i have had to hand out 13 techs (thats 5 nights worth) the players dont care about techs anymore its nothing its like the opposition just goes to the line for 2 free-throws. and it doesnt phase coaches. i had to kick a southern tigers player out a wednesday the 11th, only to see him playing the following week. (against by laws, tigers forfeited the match as the bylaws state) the players dont care anymore. a tech is almost considered as a normal foul. when i remember from when my family was heavily involved with basketball was if u were teched the club would come down on you because u were considered to be an embarassment. where have those days gone?

This is not a forum to post resentful comments about umpiring or certain umpires because without the umpire to control a game of sport there will be NO SPORT AT ALL and NO ONE WILL PLAY but to read about a referee from Norlaunga complain about being given a hard time is a bit to much to take. If anyone have played against the NCT they will know that you will get screwed over by the referees before to long and it has happened more than once to me. Having said that and reading some of the previous posts an umpire should not have to worry about the abuse or any negative comments that come from coaches, players or even worse parents because they are there to do a job and officiate.

I have umpired previously (juniors to ABA) and am not going to say that I never had any worrying moments on the court because I did, if fact that's why I no longer involved in coaching or umpiring, but I always managed to work my way through difficult situations and tying to keep every one happy. If I was asked to give any advice to any aspiring umpires it would have to be 'don't think you're above the game' let the game evolve around you and call what you are confident in calling. If you start to over call you will annoy the players, if you under call the game (letting tick- touch fouls go the players could become abusive and out of control with each other, just find a confident area and stick to it and always communicate with the players, don't talk down to them (like they are a child) and if you are going to be critical of a player be constructive not rude because that's when a player will start to abuse the power in the umpire/player relationship. Umpires are not as important as a player because the game is about playing, an umpire is there to officiate and not to be noticed if some umpires took more notice of this and less about ego the problems would be a lot less. But the ugly parent is just as bad.

i personally know all the current umpires @ MVale and i must say with the exception of 1 umpire (out of about 7) they will all say the tigers will complain they are the one being screwed, if the truth be told no one ever gets screwed.

everyteam thinks they are being screwed if they are at their oppontents home grounds. its called the home team advantage, generally the home team has more spectators, and the home team also has that familiarity with the court and stadium. one umpire there who umpires the seniors is actually a pasadena core umpire, on friday night i can think of another 4 umpires that are all pasadena core, for metro there is atleast another 2 umpires that are pasadena core and also marion core. in the past 3 weeks i have witnessed the tigers complaining more than their opposition about being screwed @ MVale if anything there is a certain anti-tigers trend @ mvale, but that being said when we walk on that court it doesnt matter the color of the uniform, theres 2 team and they both get a fair chance at a fair game. irregardless of what they believe is going on.

this is also then 'backed up' by the fact that either BASA do not want to assign evaluators to any of its stadium, do not have the resources (monetary), or have faith in their umpires because umpires have little chance of being evaluated unless doing their next grading, and even then its during the on-court component. for umpires unfortunately there are no practices in the 'true sense' and there is no training occuring unless the UIC sees fit, which generally only occurs for umpires that are new to that level of competition but once the new umpires are comfortable that is it until they go to the next level.

some support from basa would be great even if it were "umpire coaches" or even being evaluated regularly, or having an evaluator at every stadium on a friday night. they have enough evalutors as they recently ran a course.

This sport will never lose the arrogant, dickh**d, know-it-all, spectators that southern, and other clubs have. Refereeing a sport where abuse is unavoidable, no matter what you do your guna cop it, and believe it or not there is nothing that anyone can do about it.

Ive taken a new approach to umpiring, if a player or a coach has a bitch or cry at me, or swears at me, i dont give them a tech i just give them their own medicine.

Many people wont agree with that, and think that this is arrogant behaviour, which to an extent it is, but hey nothing else has worked.

i recently was up at m/vale for juniors when norwood played tigers and noticed paul welbourne doing 4 games including 2 solo. it seemed like he had a very good grasp of things and received very few complaints/abuse from both the norwood and southern coaches/spectators. you know why??? because he COMMUNICATED with people, both coaches and parents.
it seems that everyone thinks the m/vale umpires are arrogant and screw over teams (which i don't personally believe) so i thought i would make a positive comment. i doubt wether welby will be up there forever but if he does stay up there he could do nothing but improve the standard of umpiring at m/vale.

freddy i have to agree with you, some players cannot just be helped and then some people have persona's about them that some people will just seem as arrogant. whilst others will have made contacts over the years. paul welbourn has been around for a while now and quite often communicates with players etc. but when i am on the court i do not wish to explain why or why not i made a call. if the person knew the rules, like another umpire would, then i would need to explain. to this date i have never had to explain a call to another umpire/evaluator yet every week i have 'wanna-be umpires' trying to tell me what the calls are from the side lines, quite often from the best part of 20m away

what is the one of the first things you are told when u become an umpire. never make a call when you are too far from the action to be able to accurately see the action. now i would think 10m is too far away let alone 20m.

but once again freddy i took that stance over a year ago. since then the players that know me no longer question me because they know i give it back, and quite often dont bother with tech's when a player ticks me off enough i just simply kick them out. they dont like it, they know where the report book is. i will face a tribunal... at my leisure, seeing as they wont b heard without a player if a player is reported. i CERTAINLY will use that my advantage. its only basketball, the truth be told i dont do it for the money, otherwise i wouldve applied @ hungry jacks or the likes. i lecture IT and get $45/h so i dont do it for the money.