Opportunity
Years ago

CABL referees in 2012

This year with more games there is an opportunity for this mob to get more aba games

James grigoul
James brown
Neil frost
There are others as well who deserve a chance

Get them on games with the top six so they can learn from

Wieland,durant,dan Troy, Vanessa, Benny Mac etc as a couple of old guys will retire now and then who is the future ?

Topic #27542 | Report this topic


Opportunity  
Years ago

Damian Rault & Rob Rochford too

Reply #350482 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Thanks for proving why referees are treated like a joke in SA.

you lot are embarassing.

Reply #350484 | Report this post


Opportunity  
Years ago

AnOn are you saying developing umpires is not important ?
Every team does it

Reply #350489 | Report this post


Phantom  
Years ago

Mini Flanders you REALLY need to find urself a day time job buddy :)

Reply #350493 | Report this post


spectator  
Years ago

(Mod: Keep it on topic. This is not the place for sniping.)

Reply #350494 | Report this post


I disagree with those choices, nothing against those guys personally but some further development needs to be done first

Reply #350505 | Report this post


tbh of the three that were mentioned in the op, only 2 deserve aba this season... give refs like phil pulic, damian rault and adam gillings more of a chance, they are the future of reffing in sa!

Reply #350510 | Report this post


Player  
Years ago

I think phil pulic is playing aba but I agree those guys need to keep working hard and there chance will come if good enough

The problem is there are not enough good officials at the top to mentor these guys

Nathan & Nathan & Benn are the only national guys used to develop the kids

More need to learn to be leaders like dan Troy but that will come in time if he has good coaching

Reply #350511 | Report this post


hopscotch76  
Years ago

Not meaning to have a go at any of the names above, but a couple of those guys are nowhere near ready for ABL. Fast tracking them before they are ready just leads to further frustration with the standard of umpiring. With all due respect to James Brown, he has a LOT of development ahead of him first. Throwing him to the wolves is not useful at all.

Reply #350514 | Report this post


regulation size  
Years ago

the names mentioned above except james brown have refereed at aba level. theyll be fine mate. james brown will get there one day. but you are right id help having a few senior mentors out there.

Reply #350517 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

what would really help is going to those ex-referees whom are actually ABL quality (unlike all bar one of the names in the OP) and finding out why they aren't refereeing.

Then fix it!

We don't need more rookies, we have too many of them! We need senior refs to come back.

Reply #350520 | Report this post


AD  
Years ago

phil pulic playing aba?!?

Reply #350552 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Most senior referees leave ABA level due to lack of opportunities at the National level. Generally thats the nuts and bolts of it.

Reply #350566 | Report this post


Dome Rat  
Years ago

Unless Phil Pulic is playing for South Women I cant see him playing aba.

Reply #350598 | Report this post


James Brown  
Years ago

I must say it feels really good to come on hoops and see such things bring written. I understand that I have got a lot of improvement ahead of me. "not meaning to have a go at any of the names above" "with all due respect", absolute bulldung (I can say that here right?)

I know I may not be the pick of the bunch, but am I really that bad?... maybe :/ Love going on to ref youth league 1's tonight thinking that I have a bleak future :)

eh well.. /end rant

Reply #350644 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#566 Name one ref that quit for that reason? Opportunities in SA are much better then Victoria given the numbers.

Reply #350645 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I have no intention of throwing around names but how much new blood has SA had since the Weeks/Butler era? Not a lot in real terms. Because your a one team NBL/WNBL town the quota at the elite level isn't as high as other states. SA has 4 NBL refs and of those 1 is a Rookie with minimal games/exposure. A Comparison would be WA who also have 4 but all four have considerable experience. Houghton is their least experienced with 43 games at the start of 2011/2012. Victoria has 1 team and they have 6 NBL referees with Banik their least experienced with 5. (their next least is Reid with 47). NZ is a totally different beast with their local talent and their least experienced is Brown with 15.

One of SA's problems is because they don't have a panel 1 referee anymore a crew chief is flown in every game thus decreasing again the opportunity for games for SA based refs. Haines and Filmer do a small amount of travel but not a great deal. Therefore with 3 (4 including Durant) referees who are all relatively young in NBL terms the likelihood of new opportunities in SA with only the 36ers would appear greatly limited. So this also means that competition at the WNBL level for spots becomes intense and so on down the pole it goes.

It is a problem across every state, if people hit their ceiling quickly and there is not opportunity for advancement people get disillusioned very quickly. I guess a good example of this is several NBL cusp players who don't haven't gained contracts have recently moved over to AFL rather than go back to a lower league and work to gain a spot next season.

And yes anon it is a major problem in Vic (or has been historically) but it is a problem across Australia. An example is the NBL panel itself which has 33 referees on it and of those only 4 have done less than 15 games, 2 of those under 10. What does this say? That there hasn't been any real panel turn over for a long time anywhere in Australia which means there has been and is limited opportunity to get to the elite NBL level.

That's why a lot of referees at the next level down CABL, WABL, SBL etc don't hang around forever when they see no opportunity for advancement.

By no means is that a criticism it is just the structure in place and with the lack of funds and the vast expanse that the NBL's footprint covers, this then leads to logistical issues etc. QLD which has its own geographical issues with 3 teams probably has the best opportunities as currently excluding Butler they only have 6 NBL referees to service their teams.

Reply #350656 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't understand your point. A new referee has been added to the NBL panel this year. A new WNBL referee has been added to the WNBL panel this year.

The NBL will always try and send an interstate referee to Adelaide and always has. Using WA as an example as you have the NBL send referees there too. Even with 6 Vic Panel refs they still try and fly someone from interstate to mix up the combinations.

You're saying that referees at the top end quit because of lack of opportunities but we've seen 2 referees upgrade this season.

There are no referees just outside of NBL/WNBL whom have quit in the last 3-4 years due to lack of opportunity. Not one.

NBL/WNBL should be elite. It should be limited. There are 200+ ABL players for approximately 20 NBL/WNBL spots.

30-35 ABL referees and 6 NBL/WNBL referees. Seems ok to me.

If anything the 30+ ABL referees are too many. With 18 rounds and 20 referees maximum needed each week do we really need to use over 30 referees at ABL level? Do we have that many ABL standard referees in SA?

Are we giving referees too much too soon and therefore they have nothing to strive for?

How many young inexperienced referees are already doing ABL in SA? How many years experience do they need before they reach ABL level? A lot less then other states I'm sure.

Getting back to the point I made orginally lack of NBL/WNBL opportunities is not a reason why referees quit.

Reply #350658 | Report this post


hopscotch76  
Years ago

James, you are not doing yourself any favours getting on here and getting involved in this banter. It's not going to help at all, so why bother? In my opinion, as with many others I know, you are nowhere near an ABA ref yet. You're a decent guy who obviously works hard at his game, but I've seen you ref a lot of poor games even in younger junior grades, so it will take you a long time yet. And dropping the fact that you reffed YL 1s tonight is not exactly going to dazzle anybody here, so you might have made yourself look smarter by just letting it slide.

Reply #350660 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It does become a difficult situation when referees are at the level to be advanced to the wnbl/nbl panels, but there is not enough room. However this is only when referees are at that level, which quite honestly only a small few do get there. Some referees quit because they believe they are better than they are, and don't like being told that realistically they are not going to progress due to ability/age etc. Durant moved upto NBL and Devlin moved to WNBL, Troy moved to WNBL draft panel this year. The fact is with 6 available NBL/WNBL panel referees now, Troy who is on the draft panel will have to wait, probably for a number of years, and prove his worth at ABL level, until such time that there is a spot available, or out perform a current WNBL referee. Which makes take a number of years, depending on how the older referees go, and if they hang around. This is not a bad thing, as long as the referees whom are 'next in line' continually get better, and by the time that they are called up, they should be even more experienced. Troy has to wait, which means the referee after him will have to wait etc etc.

Reply #350670 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

And I disagree with your point, it is a very real reason why referees quit. They decide to do something else because they cant see the starting line. You have 2 new referees on elite panel this season, great. How long did it take to get those 2 spots? How many games has Nathan done...1 (not his fault). Looking at the age of SA elite refs it will be years (probably 4+) before you get another. The comparison with WA was to show they have 4 NBL refs with a high number of games so the chances for any new blood there is very limited hence opportunities are limited. Hence people dont hang around.

Reply #350697 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Name one. Just one.

You can't because it's not true. Not one SA referee has quit because of limited NBL/WNBL opportunities.

Reply #350711 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What part of my original comment noted SA referees?

Most senior referees leave ABA level due to lack of opportunities at the National level. Generally thats the nuts and bolts of it.

So my apologies if i dont get into a pissing contest with you.

Reply #350712 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

This whole thread is about the CABL.

The conversation has been about SA referees.

It's not a pissing contest I'm just asking you to back up your claims. Which you cannot because they simply aren't accurate.

Lack of NBL/WNBL opportunities are not a reason why our senior refs quit.

Reply #350714 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ok, so why do they quit?

Reply #350715 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

BSA, being made to ref too much, being treated with no respect, abuse from coaches and spectators, structure of the system, poor remuneration, lack of real feedback and education ....

Plus work commitments, family commitments, age, fitness, loss of interest.

Most referees I know whom have quit have done so because of the BSA/BA.

None because of lack of NBL/WNBL opportunities.

Reply #350723 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Most referees I know whom have quit have done so because of the BSA/BA".

Is this the referees reasoning? Which goes back to the point, maybe they think they are better than they actually are? And deserve more?

Reply #350728 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Most referees I know whom have quit have done so because of the BSA/BA".

Is this the referees reasoning? Which goes back to the point, maybe they think they are better than they actually are? And deserve more?


Hence they arent getting opportunities to advance so they quit and do something else

Reply #350731 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Buddy you just don't get it.

Clearly you've decided your right. I'm over trying to explain it to you. Keep believing that's the problem and never deal with the real issues.

Reply #350732 | Report this post


Yep  
Years ago

Ok I'll try to answer your question

Amy rohlach
John clover
Daniel Haebich

All quit for a lack of opportunity in NBL

Durant will be next

Reply #350735 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ouch names wow............quick start defending your position #732

Reply #350740 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Amy Rohlach was doing national league she hurt her back and gave up umpiring she also at the time got a lot of heat from Boti - don't think she gave up through lack of opportunities

Daniel Haebich was never good enough to do national league - besides I believe his work life took him away from umpiring

John Clover was doing National League, he gave up to concentrate on his law studies and his career in the police prosecution arena.

Reply #350741 | Report this post


SNES  
Years ago

Anon - 731


""Most referees I know whom have quit have done so because of the BSA/BA".

Is this the referees reasoning? Which goes back to the point, maybe they think they are better than they actually are? And deserve more?


Hence they arent getting opportunities to advance so they quit and do something else"



Perhaps they did not get the opportunity to advance - because they were not good enough? yet they thought they were the best thing going around.

I agree with the three names listed above as very good quality referees, whom unfortunatley were on the outer side of the national panel for the number of required referees. However they all had the ability to perform on par with the guys ahead of them. However, not saying that they used this reason, but if you know the panel only has 6 referees, and your not in that 6, why do you not take a good hard look at yourself and do what you need to, to improve.

I believe that if you are good enough at something, dedicated enough and committed to it, you have every chance of reaching your goals. The answer of, 'well i didnt get advanced and given a chance, so I quit', draws comparisons to taking your ball and going home.

Sure alot of people want to make it to the elite level, but particularly in refereeing, alot of refs think they are alot better than what they actually are, and they crack the shits everytime things dont go there way, and there are exmaples of this every single season at local level.

I get womens games every week - im quitting
I dont do enough good games - im quitting
Oh didnt make finals panel - im quitting
Oh didnt get the grand final - im quitting
Oh that ref is ahead of me - im quitting
Oh that ref coach said i wasnt good - im quitting

Too many referees except it given to them on a silver platter, which is breading this poor attitude of 'im above the level of game I get rostered to'. This was born through not having enough referees at a junior level years back, that is still signifcantly hurting the numbers.

Smarter development pathways, better rostering of referees, and holding them accountable is the only way to buck the trend, that continues to get worse every year. If you are not good enough to referee div 2 men, and your not accredited to do that level, you should not do it!! Instead of 'gap-filling' across the board, and making sure all games have 2 referees so on a piece of paper it looks all wonderful, actually roster referees accordingly to their ability and accreditation! If a referee constantly makes themself unavailable for these games, and wont referee when asked (1 maybe 2 mondays per month), let them know that they are not fulfilling their requirements, and until they do they will not be able to referee any higher.

Instead referees hold the powers to be hostage, with threats of quitting, until they are given everything they want when they want, refereeing at levels above where they should be, and not committed to help out when required. They then get rewarded with games above their level, think their shit dont stink and continue to demand. It is only when they hit the next level that they realise they cant pull the same schtick, get frustrated at not being 'allowed an opportunity' that they didnt actually deserve anyway! And then they quit.

So do referees quit because of lack of opportunity - you could say yes... is it bred from a terrible culture of political crap and no structure in place for correct development pathway - definatley.

Reply #350744 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Totally agree with the above post. The current crop want it now if not yesterday regardless of their ability. And most dont deserve to get there. But regardless of whether they have the ability or not they still use lack of opportunity as the excuse.

Reply #350753 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Daniel Haebich was never good enough to do national league - besides I believe his work life took him away from umpiring

It doesnt matter if Daniel was never good enough, if he believed he was and didnt get an opportunity at the next level then thats the reason he left

Reply #350754 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

SNES - that is without doubt THE best post I've ever read about refereeing on this site. I hope you have a position of authority in the area to help improve it's obvious deficiencies!

Well done.

Reply #350768 | Report this post


Fine, Fine  
Years ago

Not sure about why they quit but Rohlach is missed because she was damn hot stuff !!

Reply #350784 | Report this post


Name change  
Years ago

It's now Amy Durant , married the other ref Nathan who might have asked her to step aside for the head of the family

Reply #350801 | Report this post


Senior  
Years ago

Nathan Durant is now on the Nbl panel so I think he got there on his own ability, not that of his sexy Wife - the cream rise to the top as they say

Reply #350891 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Getting off Amy, and back on the topic.

I think BSA need to employ the right people to develop umpires who come in to the aba system, for exam with respect to some of the existing evaluators they have not been a referee themselves at a high level

I think BSA should employ the NBL refs from Adelaide to do the training since they don't ref finals anyway coz of the rule introduced last year

May as well at least have them do the training

Anyhow trying to get a positive suggestion

Reply #350906 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"I think BSA should employ the NBL refs from Adelaide to do the training since they don't ref finals anyway coz of the rule introduced last year "

The rule has been in place since SA joined the ABA.

Reply #350920 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Don't think that's right because Haines & Filmer have did national aba finals the year the pioneers won it all .
Maybe that rule has been in place for the last few years but the point is use these guys to educate the likes of frost or grigoul coming through the ranks instead of very old church basketball evaluators who have not worked at aba level themselves

Reply #350924 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The rule was 50 games. Both were probably under that at the time. SEABL/BIG V have removed that rule this year so everyone is eligible. Doubt the elite NBL in Vic will compete

Reply #350938 | Report this post


Duplex  
Years ago

Even setting up a program for the NBL/ABL senior refs to go out on a Friday Night atleast and either referee with the younger junior refs and build their confidence, so they can progress through the ranks. Hopefully work their way upto ABL/NBL in the future and actually be ready for it. Referees learn by watching and refereeing with the senior referees. These panel referees should be out there developing the younger guys.

ABL opportunitys personally are given out way to easy. No way should some of those guys that get games, arent ready for it.

If they cant commit to mid-week games being Junior or Senior, they shouldnt be able to referee ABL. Give that opportunity to someone who deserves it.

Reply #351259 | Report this post




 

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