Cassie
Years ago

Shane Heal - average coach?

Outstanding as a player but is he a good coach?

Seems as though great players don't always make great coaches. Trevor Gleeson, who has never played in the NBL (could be wrong) is doing a stellar job with the Wildcats, same could be said for Beveridge last season.

Interested to know his overall record as a head coach?

Not to mention that his style is quite boring and predictable compared to the likes of Perth or Adelaide.









Topic #33016 | Report this topic


skud  
Years ago

Considering what he did with Sydney last year I think he has done pretty well. This year is a bit of a test for him but the teams are so evenly compared its really going to stand out if he has the right skills for the job.

Reply #442982 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

I believe that the Kings finished just 1 win better than they did under Ian Robilliard, and he was crucified as head coach, the Kings finished tied with the Tigers last season and only made it through to the finals on for and against points. Fair is fair, the question has to be asked sooner or later if the results are not forth coming.


Reply #442991 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

You have seen his roster right? i suggest he is actually over achieving right now. Madgen is not back 100% just yet and he has a bench made up of SEABL players not NBL players

Reply #443007 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Weeks, White, Hill, Garlepp, Allen. No Harvey. He is doing OK to split the road trip
1-1.

Reply #443011 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think he's a fine coach - the issue for the kings is that they need a gun import who can keep things going when the team scoring dries up

He is doing a good job with what he has to work with

Reply #443012 | Report this post


Playmakermo  
Years ago

Gleeson has easily the most talented lineup in the NBL with the core group coming off an incredibly successful program by Bevo. Nothing against Gleeson's coaching abilities, but it's not a fair comparison.

Reply #443020 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Great coach so far. Has sydney over achieving.

Reply #443025 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Heal is not average. He is punching above his weight.

Reply #443028 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

Disagree, I suppose that time will tell. It is early but he needs to start putting some runs on the board or Sydney will lose patience. The Kings are rarely in the paper here in Sydney and when they are, more often than not his quotes are riddled with excuses. That gets old quickly in a big city, either perform or entertain here in Sydney, at the moment they are doing neither. They are a long way off the pace on court and the atmosphere at the games is far from electric. They seem to always come up short in the 4th quater and that reflects poorly on any coach.
A bench of U'u, Burdon, Hire, Wagstaff and Jervis is hardly a powerful second unit but they mesh far better than the Kings bench, which again is a reflection of coaching. However I do believe that Adelaide have much more talent off the bench than the Kings.

Reply #443034 | Report this post


Pauly B  
Years ago

I think Heal has done a pretty good job. The only thing that sticks out for me is the need for Ogilvy to get more shots. He's shooting 52.5% from the field and just under 90% on FT's but hasn't attempted more than 14 shots in a game. If they can get him up around 18-20 shots a game I think that would have a big effect.

Reply #443035 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I thought the "New" NBL were addressing the exposure problems the League has had in the past?

Obviously not. Same old, same old. Not surprising

Reply #443042 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

Sydney is an extremely tough and somewhat fickle sporting market - to my point that when I do get excited to see a Kings article in the paper, I'm getting sick of reading 'we have 7 new players', 'Madgen is 6 weeks away from performing at his best', 'Harvey suffered another freak injury' blah blah blah. Heal picked his team, (Gleeson is coaching 10 new players and they are 6-0) Madgen should sit out until he's 100%, do your due diligence on Harvey and his injury track record. Has to be getting close to put up or shut up time. The league desperately needs the Sydney Kings to do much, much better, across the board.

Reply #443043 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I would not employ Heal. Who wants a head coach with a tattoo visible throughout broadcats. It is highly unprofessional.

Reply #443057 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

casts

It sends the wrong image IMO. Thoughts?

Reply #443058 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What do you have against tattoos?
And tattoos should have nothing to do with the ability of Heal as a coach.....

Reply #443079 | Report this post


Tornado  
Years ago

Gleeson isnt that great a coach, he just inherited a great team and a great owner who has the ability/contacts to be able to bring in someone like Ennis. Almost any coach in the NBL this season would have Perth on top of the ladder if they were coaching.

How did Gleeson go at Melbourne?

Heal is doing well with what he has got and is able to spend.

Reply #443092 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I would not employ Heal. Who wants a head coach with a tattoo visible throughout broadcats. It is highly unprofessional.
Then get him to wear a shirt. Or, I don't know, get over it.

Reply #443097 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Seems he hasn't beaten Joey Wright yet, Maher and Carfino mentioned on Ch10 yesterday.

Reply #443098 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

He has had one of the worst rosters in the nbl for the past two seasons and made the finals last year and is doing alright this year when you consider who the losses have come to. I hate the guy and his stupid tribal tatts and 90s hair do but his teams consistently punch above their weight.

Now there is a big difference between getting teams to over achieve and winning a title with a talented roster- both require different skillsets. Hammer has proved he can get shorthanded teams Ws.

Reply #443100 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

"I would not employ Heal. Who wants a head coach with a tattoo visible throughout broadcasts. It is highly unprofessional."

Nana can you please stay off the Forums!!!

Reply #443102 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So pretty much everyone bar the OP thinks Heal is doing a pretty good job considering the rosters yeah?

As for his style being non-entertaining - I think he is one of the coaches always yelling/gesturing for his guys to push the ball in transition, and runs a couple of nice/interesting full court defences.

Reply #443109 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

A current record of 2-3 with one win against an under strength Tigers outfit and another against Townsville (on the buzzer), repeated 4th quarter fade outs, multiple double digits losses so far suggest that he is not a top line coach. A losing record last season with the Kings and losing record with the South Dragons also suggest that he is out of his depth as a coach. Zero finals victories. Beveridge lost his job after losing game 3 of the finals to the NZ Breakers for a 3peat. Facts are facts. This is professional sports people.

Reply #443118 | Report this post


Wookiee  
Years ago

Lol... I love it when idiots say "Facts are facts" right after making a stupid comment like "Beveridge lost his job after losing game 3 of the finals to the NZ Breakers for a 3peat."

Heal isn't perfect, he's made some mistakes, but I think everyone agrees that given the team he's had the last two seasons, not what he's done years ago, has proven that he's a decent coach... Like someone said above, it's a big difference between coaching a stacked team and a team where you need to get 120% out of to get the wins, it would be interesting to see how he'd go with a roster as stacked (and paid for) as the 36ers...

Reply #443122 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

Cassie, NZ won game 1 at Vector and game 2 in Perth to win the 3rd title.

Reply #443125 | Report this post


Playmakermo  
Years ago

"A losing record last season with the Kings and losing record with the South Dragons also suggest that he is out of his depth as a coach."

Cassie, Perth and NZ were the only teams with winning records last season... Were 75% of NBL coaches out of their depth?

Reply #443128 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Facts are facts Cassie...

Reply #443132 | Report this post


LanceUppercut  
Years ago

Kings really need a good PF, but it seems the player budget went on getting AJ Ogilvy and Shane Heals hair bleach

Reply #443135 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

Apologies for the game 3 finals mistake, point being Heal needs to start producing wins not excuses.

As for NZ and Perth being the only teams with winning records last season - Heal talks about winning a championship at the Kings. It's difficult to buy into this with his coaching record to date.

I don't buy into him 'punching above his weight' either. When talking about 'punching above their weight' the Wollongong Hawks come to mind, not the Sydney Kings. He is leading a very strong brand, with responsibility comes expectation and so far he has been underwhelming as a head coach in the NBL.


Reply #443136 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

"I don't buy into him 'punching above his weight' either. When talking about 'punching above their weight' the Wollongong Hawks come to mind, not the Sydney Kings. He is leading a very strong brand, with responsibility comes expectation and so far he has been underwhelming as a head coach in the NBL."

very fair comment.

Reply #443137 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

They might appear a strong brand but they have a middle of the road budget.

Reply #443138 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

Remember too that Crosswhite bailed on the team at the 11th hour.

Crosswhite instead of Ben Allen means a very different team.

They also have Cody Ellis coming into the team soon.

They are 2 wins 3 losses having played Perth twice.

36ers really didnt shake them til the last few minutes yesterday. Put Harvey in the team instead of White / Weeks minutes and the game may have been very different.


Reply #443140 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

Give Gordie Mccleod or Aaron Fearne the exact same Kings roster and I firmly believe they are finals bound minus the song and dance in the papers. Those guys continually get results on a budget.

Reply #443143 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The Kings were finals bound last season ahead of the Taipans with similar or less talent.

Reply #443144 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Cassie, why started a thread in the form of a question, then try and shoot down everyone else's comments about him? Its clear you're making a statement, not asking for opinions.

Reply #443146 | Report this post


SEABL Watcher  
Years ago

"Put Harvey in the team instead of White / Weeks minutes and the game may have been very different.
"

I think that sums up the result for me.

Still, to support some of what Cassie says, the whole team looked very flat in the latter stage of the game. They seemed to just back off & let the 36ers have their way & the coach has to accept some degree of blame for that.

Reply #443149 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Heal is _below_ average and his tatt is even worse.

Reply #443150 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Kings really need a good PF, but it seems the player budget went on getting AJ Ogilvy and Shane Heals hair bleach
They have 6'8" Cody Ellis coming in during the season.

Coaches who've historically punched above their weight: McLeod, Fearne, Heal.

The Kings need to exist as a stable team before they start upping the spending, and for the talent they've typically had, Heal has done really well.

Like I said, look at what he's working with. Ogilvy is great and likely not cheap. But beyond that:

Allen - Crocs scraps, widely panned
Hill - let go by Adelaide and then Cairns
Madgen - was a development player originally!
Harvey - Blaze didn't want to keep him
Weeks - ABL-level
White - ABL-level
Garlepp - another guy going from team to team
Two budget imports
And in recent seasons guys like Dann and L Martin

Given his budget, Heal has had to be pretty shrewd with what he can buy. He's made guys like Weeks and White serviceable. He's getting good numbers from Hill.

Heal and the Kings are easy to hate for so much of the league, but over the last couple of seasons, you have to have a begrudging respect for what he's done. He was on the road yesterday for the second game of their round and were in the mix until the final minutes. That's pretty decent.

He made the finals last season which is something far more fancied teams completely failed to do. This season, they're a game out of the four. In five games, they've played Perth twice and Adelaide in Adelaide.

Reply #443165 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Is it really his budget or that players don't want to play under him? Remember Crosswhite retired rather than play for him.

Reply #443167 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

Merely reinforcing my point, the more I think about it. It is interesting to read the feedback because Heal appears to be covering up his coaching flaws well by some of the responses.
I watched the NBA on Saturday and Jeff Van Gundy was talking about the high turnover of coaches, 13 new coaches this season and last years NBA coach of the year George Karl was even shown the door. The NBA and NBL are very different beasts but ultimately we are more accepting of mediocrity coaching and results here in the NBL.

Reply #443168 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Exactly KB3. Crosswhite and Ogilvy would have been a quality frontcourt.

Reply #443169 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anstey is another one. It's as if the clubs want an ex-player with a big name who played in the NBA. Yet this has nothing to do with being able to coach NBL.

Reply #443172 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

Crosswhite and Ogilvy are very similar, who knows how they would have co existed. The NBL is a smaller, more mobile, agile league. I wouldn't have had the confidence in Heal's coaching ability to make that situation work anyway. He seems to coach the way he used to play - with a strong perimeter focus. This has been evident so far this season, Ogilvy doesn't see the ball in the 4th quarter. Go figure! Carfino and Maher touched on that yesterday.

Reply #443187 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ogilvy is second in FGA and first in FTA on the team.

Reply #443191 | Report this post


Ganymede 86  
Years ago

From what I've seen of Heal so far he can get a team to overachieve and create an us against the world mentality. Whether he can take the next step time will tell as it is early in his career. Basketball wise he runs his players off a LOT of screens but think part of AJ not getting the ball is more the players rather than the coach. Think bringing in Cotter as an assistant was a smart move by him

Reply #443198 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

When the "brand" suits up and plays it may make the Kings strong - but it is the actual roster that plays, not the brand! And the roster is below-average. They play hard, but they just lack talent.

Reply #443199 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Nonsense Cassie.

He has the worst roster in the NBL to work with IMO, and everyone on that team is a useless one-on-one defender...yet he gets them playing hard on the defensive end anyway. That's what punching above your weight is.

Like I said, there is a big difference between getting a rag-tag group of misfits to be bigger than the sum of their parts and taking a stacked roster and getting THEM to overachieve on what is already an immense talent base. That's how you win titles. But so far as the Kings coach he hasn't put a foot wrong.

Reply #443207 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Also...you try coaching a team with Ben Allen on it and see how far you get. The guy was the worst player on the worst Crocs' team of all time. Anyone who wins a game with him getting minutes deserves enshrinement in Springfield.

Reply #443208 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

"Also...you try coaching a team with Ben Allen on it and see how far you get. The guy was the worst player on the worst Crocs' team of all time. Anyone who wins a game with him getting minutes deserves enshrinement in Springfield."

^ love this comment

Reply #443213 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with Mick (and others) Heal is a good coach, has done well with the Kings, constantly punching above his weight, especially when you consider the injuries his teams have also suffered on top of a cheap roster, to make the playoffs last season and be about on par with my expectations this season, with Madgen still yet to reach top form and 2 inconsistent imports, and guys like Garlepp and Hill playing pretty major roles, Ellis still to come in, is a great effort imo. Add the Ben Allen factor in and if they make the playoffs or get close he should be a COY candidate imo, (should have been last year aswell).

Dont let thoughts and feelings towards him cloud your judgment of his coaching, i know most 36ers fans hate Heal, but he is a good young coach, and will only get better imo.

Reply #443215 | Report this post


Rick  
Years ago

Will Ellis start?

Reply #443227 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm no fan of Heal but I think he has done a pretty good job coaching. His team is committed and obviously wants to play for him. Some of his personnel choices seem a little questionable though. Don't know if that's his fault or the front office.

Reply #443230 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

We could go back and forth, I suppose it is safe to say that the jury is still out - he has the rest of the season to make me a believer because at the end of the day he has hand picked this team.
He got rid of some reasonable, veteran talent in Bruce, Dann, L Martin for the likes of Weeks and Allen.
He also chose to bring in Sanders instead of Henry which is not even a conversation to date. A young Aussie could play Sanders' role but he has opted to use an import in that spot.
Carmouche showed some life this past weekend.
Garlepp was elevated to take Lazare's place, while he is a good role player, he is far from a starting PF in a league that boasts players the calibre of Redhage, Worthington, Vukona, Petrie, Tragardh, Conklin even Forman.
Crosswhite was an unexpected blow.
Madgen has done well to get back on court ahead of schedule after a serious injury but he is turning into a volume shooter with no defensive resistance - bad shot selection and selfish play is what we are coming to expect.
Harvey is great scorer but rarely healthy and a defensive liability when he is.
White is serviceable and can guard his position but is not overly talented.
Ogilvy is a franchise player, the signing of the offseason but doesn't see the ball when the game is in the balance.



Reply #443232 | Report this post


Mystro  
Years ago

To be fair I'm not sure Bruce could have really stuck around after the social media episode with the home & away douche but he would have been just as good as the Import from what I have seen so far of Sydney.

Reply #443240 | Report this post


D4444  
Years ago

Weeks is only covering for Gleeson isn't he?

Reply #443279 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

"He got rid of some reasonable, veteran talent in Bruce, Dann, L Martin for the likes of Weeks and Allen."

No one else signed those discards either...

He made the playoffs with a wooden spoon team. That's much of what needs to be said.

Reply #443283 | Report this post


Cassie  
Years ago

I would take Bruce or L Martin over Weeks (and Gleeson for that matter) and I would take Dann over Allen. Weeks and Allen are not established NBL players yet. All 3 of those guys have been serviceable players over the years.

Again, the Kings did make the finals last season, with a losing record - barely, on for and against countback. Pre season predictions are interesting but irrelevant.

His great accomplishments as a player help hide the fact that he is starting to get exposed as a coach. It's almost natural to think that he is a great coach but his overall record indicates otherwise. He manipulates the media to his benefit, which I find more frustrating than the poor results. It is there for all to see, you just have to read between the lines. He is actually becoming quite predictable.



Reply #443291 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

I like many others on this thread think he's going ok with this team, Ogilvy and Madgen are great players and Carmouche has found form. Sanders and Ben Allen are not NBL quality players and Harvey is past his prime. Brad Hill is too incosistent. White, Garlepp and Weeks aren't exactly stars either but on the plus side Cody Ellis will join them soon. Despite all this sydney are still a chance to make the playoffs.

Reply #443302 | Report this post


Craig  
Years ago

I see Ben Allens name mentioned a bit and about how bad he is

Shane actually coached him in the QBL for Ipswich 2 years ago.If Shane has gone ahead and signed him what does that say about him.

Reply #443315 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

He has no budget and few options?

Crocs went back to Vanderjagt. Cats went to the ABL (but got lucky). Hawks have a rookie. Not exactly loads of great back-up bigs out there (like Burston, etc). Remember that he had Crosswhite there with a year to run on his contract. He was a 10 and 8 guy last year and made an All-NBL team, then retired in July just been.

The Kings' only non-import stars are Ogilvy and Madgen; the latter was a development player who stepped up!

Reply #443324 | Report this post


SEABL Watcher  
Years ago

Madgen wasn't a development player at the Kings. He was signed as a college graduate.

Reply #443335 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

That's true, he was their 11th man.

Reply #443337 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Not too much difference, realistically.

Reply #443347 | Report this post


Wookiee  
Years ago

You've got to think that when opposing teams fans stick up for him and say he's doing an ok job, that's got to count for something...

Is he perfect? No... But which coach is? Has he signed a couple of players that he's buddies with instead of possibly other options? Maybe... It could be said that they're more known quantities to him as much as buddies and I'm sure that as a coach, that's something... Allen's signing was a bit lineball... as has been mentioned, Shane managed to get a lot out of him in QBL, but since then, in the NBL, it hasn't translated... As a last minute back up when there weren't any other options around (unless Burston was still available at the time) then maybe worth the risk, knowing that Ellis was coming... If he could have gotten even a little bit more out of him, it would have been a success, but I think he's getting the minute (or less) he deserves...

That's not to take anything away from the job he's done with the players he's got... I think Garlepp has come along greatly from when he first started and is working really well with AJ and is more capable now of shouldering some of the scoring and hustle burden... Hill has shown glimpes of fulfilling the potential he's had, but I'm not sure how much flack a coach can take for him missing easy put backs or not hustling... IF he continues to develop and improves over the year, win... If not, well, we re-assess...

Reply #443394 | Report this post




 

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