Happy Days
Years ago

VJBL Quality or Quantity?

Interested to hear peoples views.Is VJBL an elite pathway outside of VC or a way injecting funds into BV and local associations.Surely after the top 2 teams per club and age group that the playing standard and coaching standard would drop away dramatically.In local football theres one rep team per league per age group which makes it an honor to make that team. I had 4 rep kids on my domestic team and they were no better than the rest.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yep I totally agree, it should be a privilege and hard work to make a rep side, i think that maybe max 3 teams per age group per club would be good. When you watch some of the lower divisions its compatible to a C or D grade domestic comp

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Anon  
Years ago

Vjbl is not elite! Revenue making machine only..

Reply #498357 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

I suppose the question is where do you draw the line?

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Baller6  
Years ago

Some random thoughts on this. I see both sides, some kids should not be playing Rep Ball and are not even close to a decent level, but then again I'd rather see them playing Ball on Friday night than going out drinking etc. Also with better coaching than at a domestic level you can find some kids grow into very good Ballers which would have not happened at just the domestic level....then again it was way harder to make a team and play rep when I was a kid (I was cut 2 years in a row before making a squad, and rightfully so) 2 cents anyway...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It's kids sport, it should be encouraged no matter what the level of kids want to play, better they do that than roam the streets. Of course not all levels will be equal, but it also allows all abilities to have a go.

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JMc  
Years ago

No doubt some rep teams are rubbish and are very beneficial from a financial stand point to the associations etc .. Sometimes ponder why kids in the 4th team in their age group bother with the commitment and cost.

I guess if they're enjoying it then there is no problem at all with the VJBL providing a greater amount of players a chance to regularly play vs other associations.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It keeps kids off the street, also if we cut it too short, we would never have had Taylor Dyson (14.6s at Knox once upon a time), or Deng Adel (14.5s at Keilor top age). You need to have the depth of teams because sometimes you never know how kids will grow or develop. I played in the 16.6s once and a few years later running around in YCM.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The VJBL is like the NCAA. The bigger associations in Melbourne could easily be like the 5 power conferences (ACC, SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12) and split to make their own competition/tournaments.

Imagine if 10 of the biggest associations for the sake of argument (Knox, Kilsyth, Melbourne, Sandringham, Frankston, Nunawading, Diamond Valley, Dandenong, Geelong, Eltham) took their best 4 teams from each age group and started their own Competition using their courts on a Friday night.

The VJBL could keep its cash cow and there'd still be an elite component where the better athletes are always playing the better athletes.

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Bear  
Years ago

@Happy Days I have seen it first hand at all levels possible and with both a strong powerhouse Association and a new up and coming one.

My view is that while the VJBL can be improved (like most things), it is an excellent vehicle offered to our kids and when an Association gets it right it can lead to elite pathways.

The VJBL itself, I would not consider an elite competition outside that of the VC or VC reserve level, however as I said if an Association gets it right many kids can benefit greatly from it.

Unfortunately there are times when too many teams from one Association are allowed to enter. Yes, many times this results in poor quality basketball, but the bigger issue here is court space and time. We already have games scheduled after 9.30pm, for school kids and that is sadly not good enough!

If the VJBL was an elite competition, our best 18 year olds would stay in it, they go to Youth league however, because that is classed as elite at Championship Division, compared with VJBL under 20's.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

There are too many associations now in the VJBL. The talent is now spread over too many teams which ultimately means the standard of competition is lower. The 2 tier VC setup is pointless.

Just have top 12 teams in VC and the next level becomes Metro 1 instead of VC res.

It might force the better players to move to the stronger VC clubs but ultimately it will create a stronger level of competition.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

What you suggesting will improve the overall level at the top but what it does is make the strong clubs stronger and the smaller clubs would pretty much shut down.

Recent financial troubles of a number of the larger clubs I think show the fact that their should be alternatives for younger players to head to.

I`d be happy to pay money for my child to recieve eleite coaching at a larger club, however these days I see the same mum and dads coaches floating around in these associations as we do a smaller one.

The huge fees that are charged however are being funneled into a senior program so they can afford more key signings.

Some clubs do it very well, others the VJBL is purely there to fund the senior program.

There is a lot of associations set up like a upside down pyramid rather then a pyramid. Meaning they focus on the senior program and this is solid yet there is foundation being set up at the junior level to sustain it.

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Boomers  
Years ago

Interested that Bulleen wasn't included in the top 10 clubs. Won 2 VC titles and not far off the third equalling Dandenong. Based on this seasons results and awarding 10 points for VC win and 1 point for finishing 10th in VC, club rankings at the elite level are:
Melbourne 59
Dandenong 54
Knox 46
Bulleen 43
Hawthorn 30
Nunawading 30
Diamond Valley 28
Sandringham 19
Eltham 18
Keilor 15

Re this debate, particularly in the younger age groups, you don't know how kids will develop. We have kids in the 5's bottom age that may make the 1's so if you limit teams to 3 you may miss these kids. At 18 girls we have 56 at tryouts. Much prefer that these girls continue to play rather than the alternative. We do rank 2 in VC and metro 1 in this age group.

Reply #498384 | Report this post


Luke  
Years ago

Clubs surely would realise that they are not creating elite pathways for the most part because their resources are so stretched. But how do they go back to having less teams and losing the $$ that comes with having 30+ junior teams?
I think that they have backed themselves into a corner and the standard of the game is suffering because of it.

Reply #498391 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Anon @#498376 I don't see your point because years ago it was percieved as a Melbourne centric competition with draconian and outdated policy supporting those Melbourne power clubs and essentially the VJBL was seen as a Metro Melbourne bias competition.

Thankfully it has expanded and embraced Association participation outside that scope. But, along with this we all had to accept that the introduction of outer suburban and country Associations would bring along with it some additional issues.

Travel time and logistics aside, the new look VJBL is inclusive and as such allows the smaller Associations to at least develop their program to a point where if they are good enough they can make VC and play against the big power clubs at an elite level.

If not, then they make up the numbers in lower divisions and of course can still play against the top Associations in those divisions, however to split the VJBL and create another competition based on elitism suggests going backwards and doesn't address the real issues, it would just creates more problems IMO.

Reply #498398 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

@Happy Days

'In local football theres one rep team per league per age group which makes it an honor to make that team. I had 4 rep kids on my domestic team and they were no better than the rest.'

On this statement^, comparing football representative teams to VJBL basketball rep' teams is not exactly fair. Football rep' teams at league level are more like basketball rep' teams at State level. The number of kids in one football team is also four times that of one basketball team, not quite the same IMO.

Also, your example of 4 rep' players in one team, no better than the others is very subjective, it doesn't really support your arguement. Any number of coaches in the VJBL can give examples to counter this or support it based on their personal opinion I believe.

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Bear  
Years ago

Correction, the amount of players in a football team is closer to double+ that of basketball, not four, obviously!

Reply #498406 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Can a few of you add some information to what is a good topic?

The "cash cow" comment is interesting. It is only of any use as a cash if the money generated as a surplus is being used for other purposes.

The VJBL as I understand it runs somewhat separately to BV. I think even separate bank accounts - not sure if I am right. so...

a) does the VJBL play a license fee to BV? or is other cash in some way paid to BV from the VJBL?
b) What do teams pay the VJBL to be in the league? (not game by game costs, not venue costs - the actual entry and ongoing fees to the league?)

thanks...

Reply #498413 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Good luck with that one HO, it is such a broad reaching enterpirse these days with so many elements to its financhial system that will make analysing these points, valid as they are, very difficult.

I am unsure of team costs into the VJBL these days, however they were substantial enough years ago and I have never seen the VJBL clearly state how it uses any surplus; But as an incorporated body I suggest they should be displaying their financials with their AGM minutes somewhere...

Reply #498415 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

if it helps, i know the kids in un 12-14 pay $400 season

Reply #498418 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

400 x 10 =4000

Reply #498419 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bear - expanding VC to 20 teams was the worst thing to happen to the elite pathway. These clubs didn't "develop their program" to compete, they lowred the standards required to get in. And the previous 10 or 12(?) team compeition, with tough games every single week - which was the envy of every other state league in Australia - now is considered a bit of a laughingstock, with 8 out of 10 teams making finals, and regular 40+ point beatings in the 1st round.

Reply #498421 | Report this post


Dane Suttle  
Years ago

The VJBL is an " elite" competition. VC and high metro divisions very strong. The lower regional sections are also usually stronger than every comparable domestic comp, due to coaching, training etc.
One suggestion above suggested a 10 team comp featuring the strongest clubs. Great idea, the same clubs can "steal" every strong player from all the other associations as they attempt to do currently, only then it would be worse. How are the smaller association supposed to develop their players and therefore aim for higher honours?
The VJBL is an awesome competition. It gives approx 10 000 kids a 40 min, 4 quarter game, generally better umpiring, training and coaching. Yes, the standard is diluted as the grades get lower, but it serves as a fantastic vehicle to get kids into structured Badketball.
My son isn't a VC player, but has played rep since the under 12's and is currently working towards a bottom age 18's team. He will be devestated if he doesn't make it, or if the VJBL changed the comp to make it smaller or more elite. The grading system does this perfectly.
My club spends a huge amount of money and time on the many kids in our area who we encourage to play ball, keeping them off the streets and giving them a partway. Our Rep program helps us to be able to do this.

Reply #498422 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

One of the main reasons Vic Metro State teams used to dominate the Nationals was due to the way the VJBL ran with less teams in VC creating a higher standard of player and competition concentrated over less clubs.

One of the reasons Vic Metro teams aren't dominating the way they used to is because of the way the VJBL has expanded VC and allowed too many extra clubs into the league.
The standard of VC has dropped as a result.

Reply #498425 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Thanks anon-#421 for the reply, I agree with one thing in your post, that is the concept of allowing 8 teams in a 10 team competition to play finals. Too many, it removed incentive and competitiveness while rewarding mediocrity.

However, I don't agree with the rest of your post, the current VC structure allows 20 teams to play for 9 rounds and split into a top 10 elite core who play competative hoops and a secondary 10 who are also usually close in their match ups.

The old system had two VC divisions and if you were lucky (or unlucky) your team would be stuck with 9 other teams with no change for a whole season.

Anon #425, the standard of VC changes every year depending on that particular generation and last time I looked Victoria was still doing very well at Nationals. Maybe you have not given enough credit to other states for their improvement and development?

Reply #498429 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

My 2cents worth. Having served on the committee of an association - the VJBL Friday night competition is definitely a significant financial revenue stream that Associations rely on.

To think otherwise would be naive. The Associations run BB all year round, effectively, including Friday night rep because it generates revenue and if they weren't using the council or school owned facilities, then other user groups would step in. i.e Netball, Futsal, Badminton, etc.

The Associations are a Business and should be run like one.

Too many people forget the good that Rep Basketball provides. As others have said it keeps kids involved in sport, which is excellent for an ever increasing obesity problem, it occupies their Friday night, they are probably too tired to go out Saturday night as they know they have training on Sunday, etc, etc. I could go on.

Having said that - back to topic.

No - Outside VC Championship (and not VC Reserve) the VJBL Friday night Rep is not elite. Their may be the odd elite player in VC Reserve or Metro 1, but, in general, the competition at these levels or below is not elite, nor are the athletes elite.

I have boys that have played at the VC level, throughout their whole junior basketball playing days.

The VC Champ level is elite, at least the top 5 or 6 teams, but not every player in these teams is elite.

However, let's be honest about it being elite - how many kids running around on any given Friday night are going to play BIG V Championship Men, let alone SEABL, NBL or beyond? Not many!

There are, on average, 10-15 Aussie Males that US Div 1 Colleges consider to be elite enough to offer them a scholarship. Then how many of those Div 1 College Basketballers actually make a living out of playing basketball?

So let's not lose focus here. Please see it for what it is. The great thing about the VJBL is that kids are participating in a team sport.

As they say, Basketball - everyone's game.

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Baller6  
Years ago

Well said ^^

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Happy Days  
Years ago

Well said, nice to see some honesty.

Reply #498510 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#498418

It is interesting, and i know it varies association by association, and widely, but specifically what I didn't want to know... I am interested in the cash cow charge as its been leveled at the VJBL. What are they charging associations?

Reply #498513 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

i will help you out there HO, from the VJBL web site on this link here are the team entry fees for 2015/16:
http://www.vjbl.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/images/PDFs/New_VJBL_Association.pdf

VC
Spring Season $30 per team
Grading Season $190 per team
Championship Season $430 per team

Junior League 1-4
Spring Season $30 per team
Grading Season $190 per team
Championship Season $310 per team

Regionals
Spring Season $30 per team
Grading Season $190 per team
Championship Season $310 per team

Reply #498549 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

splitting the top 20 into VC and VC res has NO bearing on the standard of play and your an idiot for trying to make the claim it does. The top 10 teams STILL play in VC and generally they are still the best kids in those teams. Call VC res VJL 1.1 if you like its still the next best 10 teams.

Reply #498566 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What is this anon^ on about, anyone have any clues?

Reply #498572 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Bear do those fees include refs or just basic adminstrative costs.

Reply #498576 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Not sure of the breakdown @Happy Days, they is listed as team entry fees so they could be inclusive, but the finacials of such an organisation are not so easily comprehended.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The VJBL imposes a fee per team for entry into the competition. This fee is charged in two parts the first will be for Grading and the second for the Championship Season.

This fee includes all league provided services such as:

a. Administration and League Office Management
b. League promotion and marketing tools (ie. Website)
c. Referees travel and development costs
d. Any additional development programs that are implemented from year to year

Reply #498583 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Those costs are just to enter a side into the VJBL, other costs are $25 for a clearance to be processed.

Reply #498585 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Having a bit of a troll around I found some stats on the annual report for BV 2013.

It appears that in that year the VJBL had 77 u/20 teams, 359 VJBL league teams, 416 Regional teams and another 121 listed under VJBL Mini.

I have no idea what mini teams are, but if we add this total it gives us 973 teams in that season.

Let's round that off to 1,000 VJBL teams, potentially.

Team costs are on average about $550 per team, give or take.

That will provide the VJBL about just over half a million dollars revenue per season to run the competition at their end going on those basic sums, if I am right here...

Now we just need to know what they spend it on to determine if it is a cash cow or not, true??

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Anonymous  
Years ago

You wouldn`t think that the people in the office there would be on a good wicket when essentially they are just administrative staff. The work they do could be done by any temp hired.

Anything above 35 to 40K a year and they are doing bloody well for themselves.

Reply #498591 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Referees are covered by door takings at the venues.

Reply #498594 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#591 you're kidding right? You obviously have no idea what is involved.

Reply #498595 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

True, administration and office management sounds like a simple job, but I know for sure the people at VJBL head office are very busy indeed, they also do a pretty fine job.

All I would like to see is that school age kids don't start games after 8.30pm, and I would be even more impressed...

Reply #498670 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Anon#594, you are correct that officials game costs are covered by team fees on the night, also Associations get another kicker in door fees up to $3.00 per person, including players.

The VJBL appears to use the money from team entry fees from Associations for Referee Development and other Development Programs, so no the same...

Reply #498674 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A couple of comments on this one:

1) Elite is a word that is very different by people's interpretation.
2) the VJBL/BV are not swimming in money
3) often last season's 4 team player is this season's 1 team player
4) many associations use their rep and domestic programs to fund the massive losses of SEABL programs
5) many associations pay "CEO"s way above what they are worth as small business managers while wasting the money of the associations
6) sometimes these CEOs move on to running NBL teams when the money is all gone from the rep associations

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Anonymous  
Years ago

^
Point 1 - Agree. Elite for me are the players who make State teams. But even then, some of these athletes are not elite & will not go far. Troll for past state teams members and see how far they got and/or where are they now.

From first hand knowledge a lot of the U16 State team members are gone by U18 or U20. A lot that make U18 will not make U20 and so on.

Point 2 - Agree & neither is BA.
Point 3 - ???
Point 4 - Agree, many associations use the Junior Rep Program & their Domestic comps to bankroll the Seniors, & a lot of this is ego driven by committe members and senior coaches. But they are providing a pathway and a service. Let's be honst Basketball is not a cheap sport to particiapte in when compared to Football, Cricket or even Soccer.

Personally I'm not sure why we need to have imports at the Big V or SEABL level. This should be a breeding ground for local talent!

Point 5 - Are you speaking from first hand knowledge? Not exactly sure that you'd classify some associations that have a turnover of $3+ million as small business. Maybe the turnove is not massive, but there is a huge number of resources that need to be managed. If they make mistakes it could go horribly wrong very quickly.

Point 6 - Again are you speking from personal knowledge? I know of only one CEO that has moved from a Rep Association to an NBL franchise and I can't comment on that association's financials.

Reply #498735 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#498689 & others...

So what should an Association CEO be paid?

have a go at some of these for me.

Dandenong:
(WNBL/SEABL/15 court stadium to manage)

Nunawading:
(SEABL/5 Court stadium to manage)

Hawthorn:
(BigV/no stadium)

Craigieburn:
(BigV/no stadium)

Reply #498745 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I don't know what a CEO is paid HO, but if an Associations gets the right one it will make the world of difference, that is for certain.

The other thing for certain is exactly your point^ suggesting CEO's of one Association have a much bigger responsibility than another. Essentially a similar role, but a much broader set of KP's...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Dande: GM type role, 120k

Nuna: Run by committee, mgr is effectively an extension of them: 70k

Hawthorn/Craigiburn? part time job? 20k

Reply #498768 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A couple of million in revenue is a small business.

I know of GMs/CEOs earning in excess of $200k which equates to >10% of revenue which is way out of proportion.

Reply #498773 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes, even the bigger associations are considered very small in business terms.

Reply #498774 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

basketball GMs on 200k plus? Seriously you have no idea.

Reply #498776 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You have no idea the collusion that can occur between committee members, and them employing themselves, their families, their mates and their business partners.

Not only the GM but coaching director on similar money all at the same association.

Reply #498783 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

200k is still way over real figures in those circumstances.

Reply #498785 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

To be honest none of it should be a secret either. If the Associations are incorporated bodies as the majority would be, all financials should be listed according to their constitution and model rules.

Reply #498792 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The biggest issues most associations have is under skilled Basketball people filling professional administrative and management roles, and being often over paid to do them.

Reply #498794 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Hawthorn are now something like the seventh biggest association in Australia and you think the CEO roles is part time and worth 20K?

BTW, I reckon most basketball organisations would be considered micro-businesses.

Reply #498795 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

$200k is in line with an ex GM I know.

Reply #498796 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Kilsyth was $80k with a review after 12mths.Dandenong would be around 100-120k.Reasonable size Big V club was offering around $60k.

Reply #498798 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

As the saying goes, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

Reply #498801 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The majority of the responsibilities of a GM would be operation of a facility.

If the association has no operational responsibilities for facilities its effectively a part time job and not worthy of much money.

Reply #498832 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

@498832

So running a competition for 600+ teams (ensuring growth all the time), running a rep program (senior and junior), working on sponsorship, overseeing referees supervisors and door staff - all of that doesn't add up to a fulltime job?

Reply #498843 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, you just listed 4 separate part time roles. Each needing a particular skill set. Each of those roles is handled by separate individuals within other organizations.

Door staff are handled by the venue which isn't part of the non venue model i'm talking about.

Without needing to run facilities what exactly would a GM do other than oversee those individual diverse roles?

Reply #498849 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

No, I listed one huge full time role depending on the model.

Any association with 400+ teams would expect at least to have a competition manager running that, with a GM over the top of that position.

And I didn't include finance and board reporting etc.

With your thinking any organisation in the nation, basketball association or BHP, could run without a CEO! Just get lots of part time roles to do all the bits!

Many basketball associations supply their own door staff/court coordinators when they don't control the venue.

Reply #498881 | Report this post




 

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