Anon
Two years ago

Vic's win again

Well 16 Nationals are over and all four Vic teams in Grand final.
What does that say about the other states.
Nsw disappointing results apart from metro boys getting bronze.
Player development for nsw needs to get better and maybe a coach needs to go as one particular one changes age groups from male to female teams and still no results after winning 18 boys four years ago.know the right person and you get the job.
Qld probably disappointing but they have improved over recent years in 16's and particularly 18's.
SA have dropped off although their country got did well this tournament.
WA getting better in recent years and showed how good they have got my winning 18 boys recently in transit style.

Topic #43613 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Two years ago

it will be a vic m win for both boys and girls next year too.
Other teams have no chance.

Reply #696378 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

U14 club champs and scc show vic (particularly metro) are far ahead in 04/05 age group.

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Anonymous  
Two years ago

Certainly You should expect NSW and Queensland to compete with Vic but isn't it just a numbers game for the other smaller states ? Is Vic participation rates so far ahead they just have a greater pool of players to pick from ? And don’t forget last year Queensland played off for gold and Vic Countty didn’t even make top 8 ! No matter how good your 'program’ if you don’t have the athletes you can’t win it !!

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Anonymous  
Two years ago

History - Since 2000. U16.

Girls titles...
VIC Metro - 17
SA Metro - 1
Qld South - 1

Boys titles...
VIC Metro - 11
VIC Country - 2
NSW Country - 2
QLD North - 2
NSW Metro - 1
WA Metro - 1

Domination!

Reply #696412 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

#409, Vic participation rates are massively ahead. One of the concerns for NSW Met and SA Met in particular, though, is that this is one of their stronger age groups in a long time for the boys. The Club Champs final two years ago was Hills/Comets, with North Adelaide taking bronze. While we've seen non-Vic teams win club champs, I can't remember the last time no Vic side medalled. So for the Vics to take it out this year was a bit surprising, at least on the boys side.

Reply #696413 | Report this post


Analyst  
Two years ago

It is a worthy analysis to see how the teams did 2 years ago at U14 Nationals and compare to now but you'd need to look at the whole cohort from each state in the 14s nationals. For example, SA Metro have the bulk of their team from that North Adelaide team. Did they do so well at u14s because so much talent is concentrated in that team in a weak U16 cohort from the state? This would mean very few players pushing for spots on the u16 State team and their success is due to the concentrate of talent. How did the other SA teams go in 14s compared to other states, say Vic?

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Duke Fan  
Two years ago

NSW Met women's coach has never won anything at any level in their short coaching career. Must write a good application though

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Anonymous  
Two years ago

SA teams were 3rd, 5th and 7th at u14 clubs. Admittedly the 5th placed team relied heavily on country's best player.

But there is certainly more talent than just in one club.

Reply #696421 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

NSW never pick the best players or coaches, the politics is dynamite.

Reply #696424 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Victoria Dominant against the powerhouses of the Northern Territory, the ACT and the rest.
Give it a rest.

Reply #696435 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

It is a numbers game but you would have to be asking questions about the NSW metro program in particular!
The standout performance for the week has to be SA Country finishing 4th

Reply #696477 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

If it was a numbers game..
Why did wa men win the u18 title?

Reply #696478 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Personally, I don't think vic metro picked the best side for both boys and girls and they still won.

Reply #696480 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

1 win by WA doesn't really break the dominantion of the Vic’s , WA just had 3 outstanding players,

Reply #696481 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Really think it could be a blow out next year.
Not sure anyone will be close.

Reply #696482 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Yep
NSWC boys prog - Boys club of 'lad' coaches lacking emotional intelligence and ability to engage and manage developing young men. It takes more than running and telling them they are s%*t. Have been picking and prioritising players who are the most fit, athletic, loud ('leaders' ha ha ha), compliant and 'connected'. At some point (ie at Nationals ...) you need some IQ and shooting too.

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Anon  
Two years ago

Wa boys won because they have been developed over a number of years and the way results have been getting better over last three to four years.
Nsw getting worse because the boys club keep getting selected and no leadership there to take control.Country program going backwards at a knot of rates.
Cadee reckon nbl experienced people were the answer and Kirwan just had no idea.

Interesting to see who takes Kirwans place and look to get some leadership and control in the area so the two high performance coaches just don't do as they want and get set straight on what there role really is rather than just go to bationals to sit and watch rather than provide feedback and guidance in the right way to the coaches.

Reply #696505 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

Wa boys won because they have been developed over a number of years and the way results have been getting better over last three to four years.
Nsw getting worse because the boys club keep getting selected and no leadership there to take control.Country program going backwards at a knot of rates.
Cadee reckon nbl experienced people were the answer and Kirwan just had no idea.

Interesting to see who takes Kirwans place and look to get some leadership and control in the area so the two high performance coaches just don't do as they want and get set straight on what there role really is rather than just go to bationals to sit and watch rather than provide feedback and guidance in the right way to the coaches.

Reply #696506 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

Maybe having some mentor coaches to guide the younger head coaches could help.
Take the Vic's as a guide where someone like Scott Chistansen is still involved as an assistant in the Vic metro program

He has been around a long time and his guidance must help.

Unlike some states who just want to get rid of the older coaches who have been around for a while and bring in the younger ones who think after maybe one as an assistant they should be the head coach the next year.

In nsw one country coach keeps getting jobs even when results are not there.

In nsw metro one coach goes with two different age groups as an assistant and others who apply miss out.

The comment above about politics playing a part was spot on.


Reply #696507 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

The u12 showcase program shows you that the vics are constantly evolving.
Other states have only just recently got 'futures'

Reply #696509 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I think the dominance of the Vics presents issues in other states in that there is no expectation that they win. The NSW Metro boys this year should have considered themselves favourites and the goal should absolutely have been gold. But no one will look at bronze as a disappointment, because the powerhouse Vics were the only ones who finished ahead of them.

It's also a problem for the minnows, because a Territory/Tassie/WA Country side finishing 11th that should have been capable of finishing 6th or 7th isn't necessarily viewed as a failure because the result itself is so normal.

The non-Vic teams and state bodies need to be very careful to evaluate against what should realistically have been achieved, rather than just settling for great age groups producing good results and good age groups producing average results.

Reply #696515 | Report this post


First Point  
Two years ago

Maybe Vic Metro should be allowed to enter two teams, this will even up the pools and competition.

Reply #696520 | Report this post


Hoopie  
Two years ago

Good idea provided you never allowed the two Metro teams to play in the final

Reply #696522 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

They could pick an A and B team. I guess up to the other teams to make sure they don't play off in the grand final.

Reply #696527 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

They could pick an A and B team. I guess up to the other teams to make sure they don't play off in the grand final.

Reply #696528 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Met East and Met West

Reply #696530 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

The Vic Metro talent runs very deep. They could easily get two very competitive teams.

Reply #696533 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Victoria had top 8 club teams in under 16 girls at the Classic.

Reply #696536 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Previous winner can field 2 teams.

Reply #696545 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I think if Vic Metro entered two sides with evenly distributed talent, there would be occasions where they would take gold and silver, and they would regularly put both teams inside the top 6. It would erode the excuses from other states, but it would also help the Vics accelerate even further ahead in some ways.

If they picked an A and a B team, well, honestly, I agree with anon #480 who said the Vics didn't even pick their best teams anyway. I'm not familiar with the girls, but the boys could have been stronger. So if the kids who weren't selected for this year's teams had instead been picked in a 'B' team, I'm not sure it wouldn't have been as good as the squad they sent. If you require them to pick, say, a bottom age team and a top age team, I think it would be rare that their bottom age team would medal, but I think you would see even fewer instances of their top age team failing to win gold. So I don't know how you provide them with the opportunity to send a second side without also giving them the chance to set it up in a hugely advantageous fashion.

A 14th team would be really helpful for the draw, though. The setup with 13 is pretty silly.

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Anonymous  
Two years ago

There would be very few states that could field two strong and competitive team. A second SA team for example would struggle.

Reply #696550 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

a few of the vic metro girl bottom agers were barely used.
Maybe development for next year...

Some of the reserves they had would be starters on most teams.
Not sure why chatfield wasn't picked (maybe injury) and derkson (a strong rebounder)
Both would have made the team even stronger imo but would have also reduced minutes for Heal(who was probably the best bottom ager in the tournament) and kitchell(one of the leading rebounders)

Reply #696551 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

SA country girls coaches same as always
Therefore same results
Change please
Or just be SA no more SA country

Reply #696553 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I see no reason why Vic Metro shouldn't have an A and a B team to let the comp go back to 14 teams, and if they both happen to make the Gold medal game, then so be it, happened a couple years ago in the u20 tournament at Ipswich.

Also means an additional 10 players and 3 coaches get to experience a nationals tournament, not to mention the additional reserves and coaches who might help in the trial and prep phase, that can only be a good thing right.

Just means all of the other states need to lift their game. Vic metro is the only region that should be able to field 2 teams, and could actually do it.

Vic Metro does have an inherent advantage due to the sheer number of clubs and the size of the VJBL competition, and the players and coaches that play in the VC comp are used to playing hard games every single week, I think that is a major difference.

Vic metro are used to being the hunted, and with the proud history that they have, there is an expectation that they will win Gold, that’s what they go to a nationals expecting to do, and it usually is the result, well more often than not as history has shown.

Only looking at live stats and results etc, you’d have to imagine that Qld boys and Qld South in general would be somewhat disappointed with their results being the host etc, but at the end of the day they are 14 and 15 year old players pretty much and they should all be commended on making their state team.

As for coaches, it will be interesting to see what direction NSW goes in with whoever is appointed as the next state head coach, as results over the last year or 2 haven’t been the best, with neither Metro nor Country setting the world on fire this year. Country’s results have been particularly worrying, again I know population size/club size is a factor, so does it come down clubs not preparing players as well as previous years, or coaching staffs not preparing the players, as both have to go hand in hand, due to state coaching staffs not being with the kids week to week.

Would be interesting to hear some unbiased opinions.

Reply #696555 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two years ago

Vic Metro North West
Vic Metro South East
Vic Counrty

Would be a great idea, except other states wouldn't like Victoria at times winning all 3 medals.

Reply #696556 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

If Vic Metro was to have 2 teams, it has to be an A and a B, can't be an east/West, north/south etc, makes more sense to have A and B team

I’m all for it to get the comp back to an even 14 teams!!

Reply #696557 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Nz have there u17 champs at the same time. Not sure they want to send teams over anymore, so one spot is left open.

Personally I think it should be whoever wins the tournament, they get to send 2 teams the following year to cover nz's absence. That would be fair, Diluting the champions the following year would help the rest of the states.

Reply #696558 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Just because a state wins the tournament one year does not mean they have a strong team the following year.
I like the VM South East, and VM North West idea!

Reply #696561 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

#558, that's roughly the rule that applies at Club Champs, where the team who wins it earns an extra bid for their state the following year. But the Vics are the only state whose extra team is competitive. Last year, the 5th NSW side (as a result of Comets win in 2016) finished 22nd, with their only win coming against Alice Springs.

The reality is that a second side from anywhere other than Vic would be competitive against the very bottom of the competition but nowhere else. Vic Metro is the only logical place from which to draw the additional team.

I'm not sold on the A/B team idea, though. Why doesn't a geographic split work? A/B would be ok if it were genuinely the best 20 players in Metro. But I can't imagine the B team wouldn't preference bottom age players as a phenomenal development opportunity not available to other states. That might be good for Australian basketball but would exacerbate the existing imbalance.

Reply #696562 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

What about a bottom age NT with COE coaches chosen from state based programs.
Would be beneficial for them the following year.
Training would be an issue though with school etc. hard to gel with teammates you have never met.

Reply #696565 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I don't like the geographic split as then you are potentially diminishing the actual state team, you may not get the best 10 players in the 1 team.

Now I know some may say the coach doesn’t pick the best 10 players now, but it’s the best 10 players they have selected

As a state team, I want the best 10 players selected by the coach, and if I’m the B coach, then I want to be able to choose the next 10 best

Also, there is no geographical split that could be the same year to year due to changing comps and the geographical strength of said comp, hence why I’d still advocate for an A and a B over anything else.

Major drawback I could see for A and B tho is the matter of emergencies, do both teams train together in the prep phase?? Cause what happens if 2 weeks out or something an A player gets injured, does a B player come up and emergency go into the B team etc.



Reply #696566 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

A bottom-age national team would either a) pull bottom-agers who were already going to make their own state team, thereby decreasing the strength of some existing sides, or b) be composed entirely of kids who weren't selected for their own state team, thereby being far from a top tier of talent and defeating the purpose.

#566, a geographical split would almost certainly prevent the selection of the 10 best Vic Metro players in a single team. I think the question is whether that's a problem. Most of the time, it would mean that the best team at Nationals is not as good as it was otherwise going to be. But the 10 players who would have made a single Vic Metro team will still get a chance to compete. So the only reason the idea of the ten best playing together matters is for chances of winning the event. Am I understanding your argument?

Reply #696568 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

7 teams in each pool is a great idea. Could go either white and blue team I.e. a & b model. Once you have top 20 emergencies are then selected by the respective coaches. Team should go in their own direction.

Region based model SE Metro and NW Metro solves the emergency problem, also better geographically for trainings etc.

A wonderful development opportunity for Australian basketball.

Reply #696571 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Spreading the VM talent across two teams based on regions will dilute the strength and possibly effect their chances of winning. A & B should not matter. The b team will still be highly competitive and will provide development opportunities for some kids who would start on most other state teams however, would miss out in Vic.

Reply #696573 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

#568 - yeah as this is a National Championship tournament, I firmly believe the idea is to win the tournament first, and your state team should be able to be the best 10 players as selected by the state coach, not by some geographical split of the metro region, or by 2 supposedly "even" teams.

If it was a participation tournament, sure have 2 even teams, but no, this is a national championship so I believe an A and a B team is the way to go, and if a B team wins the championship in some way, then so be it, the A coach will have some explaining to do.

As it is, yes Vic Metro are winning the majority of championships, but it's definitely not like they aren’t being challenged, would one of the 2 even teams still get the championship? Would Vic Country have won both of this years championships if vic metro had 2 even teams? They were only 10pts or so from taking it out as it was.

So yeah, I still stand by an A and B team, but call them Navy and White for all I care, or even Ashe and Watson after the VC conferences, or even Gaze and Timms.

What about other states? What do they need to do to consistently bridge the gap to vic?

Reply #696575 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

never liked taking bottom aged kids for the big states.
Most of them rarely play. You can't tell me that those vic reserves were not as good as the some of the bottom agers brought in. They came in based on potential, which in my mind is not right.

Maybe it's time to ditch u20 champs for international u20 Asia comp like in Europe and elsewhere and add in a u15 and u17 national championships so that everyone in each age group gets a proper shot.

U18 feb, u17 may, u16 august, u15 november, u14 club champs december, development tournaments in January.

Reply #696576 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

#576 - horses for courses in relation to bottom age players

Some are more than ready as a vic metro pg showed this past week, some maybe not ready, but that's for the coach to decide, and hindsight is a beautiful thing.

Look at the Vic Metro u18 team that won gold in Brisbane a few years ago, had a few bottom age players, DJ Vasiljevic, Tom Wilson, Jock Perry, Abi akintola, can’t remember if any more, but had bottom age players not been allowed, these players couldn’t have played, and it wasn’t like they were making up the numbers for that Vic Metro team.

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Anonymous  
Two years ago

Its a national championship and winning titles is one thing but it doesn't entitle any state to have an additional team. Maybe you can start discussing how a national championship should operate when all Vic basketball players pay affiliation to Basketball Aus.

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Red84  
Two years ago

Regarding the girls - The Vic Metro comp is twice the size of NSW metro and this will provide Vic with an advantage regarding pool of talented players. But in my opinion that is NOT the key difference in competitiveness between Vic and NSW - there are enough quality players in metro NSW to offer a keener contest.

The key difference is the quality of coaching, particularly at metro club level.

We should not be surprised that sub par systems and playing habits (notably decision making) that girls learn at their home clubs transfer across to their play at nationals. Only when the likes of Comets, Norths, Manly and Hills can match Bulleen, Dandenong, Melbourne and Knox will the situation change.

Coaches in metro NSW need to be held more accountable for poor performances over successive years. Unfortunately I have seen some coaches, repeating the same mistakes year after year, preferring to place the blame on the girls year after year.

Reply #696610 | Report this post


Duke Fan  
Two years ago

Why not have 2 tournaments?

Vic Metro A,B,C,D and Vic Country A & B can play each other and the winner would be National Champions

The other states can get together and play for the Consolation Cup. Would probably be a good tournament

And we all know the Vics would enjoy playing with themselves

Reply #696611 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Similar situation in soccer where nsw dominate.

Reply #696612 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Next year could promote change when the other teams get blown out of the water.

Nsw m do have some nice talent in the girls coming through but it won't be enough.

Reply #696613 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Only reason I am advocating for a 2nd Vic Metro team is to even the comp back out to 14 teams, if NZ come back in then no need for that 2nd vic team, but until then, why not look at it to even the comp back out.

Hate to say it, and I know a lot of states don't like it, but Vic Metro is the logical state to have a 2nd team, history has shown that they are the deepest state in terms of player numbers and depth.

If states are against it, I can only assume it’s because of their concern the 2nd Vic Metro team will take a 1/4 final spot.

As for Vic players not paying fees to BA, of course they do. They pay their club/assoc and team fees which some of then get passed onto BV, which then also goes to BA, just as different way of doing it.

As stated above, Vic Metro does have an advantage due to sheer numbers, but as someone also stated above, other states also have quality players too. Vic have the in-state competition that forces players and coaches into weekly tough competition, whereas other states cannot boast that, club and classic results are indicative of that, couple that with Vic Metros constant expectation to win gold and it all goes a long way to explaining Vic Metro continued dominance.

Vic Metro also seem to cycle through coaches a lot quicker than other states to continue the coaching pipeline. Yes vic have more coaches, and other states may not have the applicants, as stated above, it seems some states just seem to be rehashing the same coaches, with the same ideas and principles of play, and the same results are occurring, what does that say about the coach development that is occurring?

Reply #696614 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Just imagine how strong would Australia's national team be if NSW and SA could replicate Victoria's example?

Reply #696616 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

A second Vic metro team makes sense - not just because it will even out competition at the nationals - but because of the rise of new clubs such as Altona, Frankston and Southern Peninsula. We need to provide representative playing opportunities for players and coaches in these fast growing regions.

Reply #696617 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I don't believe other states have to replicate the Vic system at all, there’s nothing wrong with difference

However if they could replicate the Vics standard of competition then you are onto something.

It’s a battle for most vic teams to just qualify for VC, it’s cut throat, whereas the qualification process in nsw metro and sa Metro is what? It’s nowhere near as cutthroat due to lack of teams, so this then plays into the psyche of clubs, coaches and players, that the desire and need to work harder just isn’t there, and in country it’s even more exacerbated!!

Reply #696619 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

You are on the money - could not agree more

Reply #696621 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Having nsw split into all those regions makes it difficult.

Qld south doesn't really have an excuse.
Gold Coast have been producing some talented kids, next year south has to be competitive. They have the players.

Reply #696626 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Red84 how can a state the size of SA compete with the larger states , we simply cannot replicate the standard of competition without numbers, if we ran a handicap system at Nationals based on population just imagine the results then !

Reply #696638 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two years ago

If nearly 40% of registered junior players are in the current Vic Metro region, why do they only get to have less than 8% of total players at nationals?

If the main goal of the state programs is to give players development for future national representation, the Vic Metro players rated 11-20 are extremely disadvantaged and miss the opportunity to develop when realistically they are probably better players with more potential than a large number of players from the other states.

Splitting Vic Metro into Nth/West and Sth/East makes sense in bringing an even draw of 14 teams, reducing Vic Metro's dominance, and giving opportunities to more deserving players. So many players become professionals and even represent Australia who missed out on Vic Metro, those players deserve a better chance.

Reply #696641 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

How do we make this happen for future championships?

Reply #696644 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Vic basketball gives its athletes a great chance of success with or without playing at Nationals.
There is no doubt the competitive nature of your comps ensures player development, interstate players eg SA are quickly left behind after U 14's and the results at 14 Clubs are easily skewed when 3 teams from SA make it and they contain a majority of the best country and metro players in the state. Having half State team comprised of players from 1 club isn’t unusual in SA

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Anonymous  
Two years ago

I don't usually agree with Melbourne Boy but I do in this case. There is clear justification for a 2nd Vic Metro side given the current absence of NZ from u16 and u18 Nationals.

I understand that it's a National Championship and you want the best team possible to win it, but I think it makes sense for it to be a geographic split, and I think that's a fair balance between Victorian interests (i.e., being the only state to field 3 teams) and interstate interests (i.e., increased competitiveness for medals). To me (I'm not Victorian), an A and a B team is all good for the Vics and no good for anyone else.

Because so much of this thread is anon, it's hard to know how many people are contributing. But it's interesting that there seems to be general consensus that a 14th team makes sense and that it being a Vic Metro side is logical, too. It would be good to see BA act on it for next year's champs.

Reply #696666 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Anon asked "Red84 how can a state the size of SA compete with the larger states , we simply cannot replicate the standard of competition without numbers,..."

You are right - it is a problem, now. My earlier post was a vision. Looking across the codes - SA Origin footy teams have been terrific in the past - despite suffering from lack of population that you mentioned. Good organization and coaching and local enthusiasm can go a long way. My impression is that SA metro teams are not so far behind NSW metro in terms of player numbers & numbers of teams etc and the performance of their rep teams is not too dissimilar.

The sleeping giant of Australian junior basketball is NSW metro.

Reply #696667 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

^ yes, saying "how can SA possibly compete?" is like saying "how can the Boomers possibly compete with team USA?" Obviously it can be done. But there may need to be changes to the approach.

Rather than states with smaller playing bases trying to replicate the size and scale of VJBL, would they be better off shrinking their division 1 competitions to 6 teams? This might create greater competition to make div 1 in the first place, and increase the quality of games once teams get there. Increasing the pressure to qualify for div 1 might encourage greater turnover of underperforming coaches and an increased willingness to try new or different ideas where old ones have been ineffective.

That's not a magic bullet, or even necessarily the right solution. But other states need to be willing to make changes because they're sure not catching the Vics with what they're doing. The numbers make clear that while we've seen teams come through and win championships, and a big deal is made of how well NSW Country/WA Metro/Tas/Vic Country/Qld are progressing, it is almost always a case of a particularly talented group of athletes who have been well coached and succeeded. There is no systemic underpinning that has seen anyone rise as a genuine competitor to Vic Metro throughout the age groups.

Reply #696672 | Report this post


Duke Fan  
Two years ago

BNSW won't reduce the size of their Div 1 comps or worry about improving the standard. All they want is every possible team they can get into a competition and get cash from, the level of play is irrelevant

Reply #696689 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

How are NSW Metro the sleeping giant of Australian basketball.

You have to have the right people in the jobs to run the programs and support the Associations with player development.

The competitions need to improve big time and become conmpetitive like the Vic Championships rather than allow some associations to try to put a team in Div 1 for one comp only when the next year they maybe back in Div 2 or 3 because they do not have the player strength coming through the next year to stay in Div 1.

You also have to stop certain associations from poaching players from other associations to weaken the other association and strengthen their own and just win everything and which does not make for fair competition and until BNSW have the balls to do something about it nothing will change.

Why not try to improve NSW Country as well as they really need work done to get their strength back up to where it was 5yrs or more past.

That Is the problem where single minded people only think of themselves like the person who made the comment about NSW Metro being the sleeping giant.

Years ago when certain staff worked for BNSW improvement was being made throughout the state then certain people went to work there and only had Metro as their priority.

Will it change,who knows.

Reply #696704 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Duke fan is right, only about money and who you know in nsw.

Reply #696707 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Anon (and there are so many anons!) clearly writes from his/her bad experience with BNSW. Not much I can disagree with the comments, although the personal crack "That Is the problem where single minded people only think of themselves like the person who made the comment about NSW Metro being the sleeping giant." is unnecessary and just untrue. How would you know what my motivation is?

NSW metro is a sleeping giant because it has a large population of 5.2 million and low participation rates. With better management, a modest increase in participation results in a hell of a lot more players, and a lot more teams. Look at what Greater Melb has done with a smaller population (4.5 mln) - it is the exemplar of best practice in the nation. Similar incomes, similar demographics. Add to that, the road system in metro Sydney - which was dreadful for many years - has improved, at least when experienced on a Sunday morning, which reduces drive times.
I have nothing but respect for our brethren in country NSW. This is a chat forum, we are not obliged to be comprehensive in our posts.

Reply #696717 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I agree with Duke Fan, Australian Champs to include the following teams VM A, B, C and D plus VC A and B.

Consolation cup all other states.

Reply #696738 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

-Vic m top age / vic m bottom age
-Vic m north and west / vic m south and east
-vic m A (top 10) / vic m B (next best 10)
-Best of the rest reserve team ( made up of reserves from each state/territory)
-national bottom age team ( made up of the best bottom age athletes)
-nz turns up...
-winner sends a second team the following year
-international team invitation. Asian side?

Reply #696741 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I think BNSW Country is actually one place where some of the right things are happening. How many different competitive models have they moved through in the last 5 or 6 years? We've seen the advent of CPL, State Cup, changes to the format for both, changes to the structure of Country Tournament. Has anything worked? It's hard to say. There certainly hasn't been a consistent improvement in results at Nationals correlating with the introduction of CPL. But they seem to recognise that they don't have the right system in place, which I assume is why it keeps changing. I don't think this year's Country Championship League has provided an answer. But I find it hard to be critical when improvements are actively being sought.

The competitive side is different than the HP side, but they are related. Better competition forces so many of the things that HP otherwise has to develop: ball handling, decision making, the ability to guard those players, superior skill/size combinations. There's a reason that so much of this thread has referred back to VJBL/VC and the quality of competition in Vic Metro. It's really hard to develop great players without the opportunity to play great games. Some of Vic Country's success no doubt comes from the fact that a significant portion of their playing base has the opportunity to play VJBL.

Reply #696752 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

I haven't read all the posts. But the VICs have a really strong representative program run by the Victorian Junior Basketball League (VJBL). If other states want repeated success then you have to improve the general standard of your rep/domestic competitions and coaching.

I think you will find this is the main reason they are so strong as they play at a high level for roughly 9 months of the year.

As an aside, Victoria were allowed (or asked) to enter two teams in the U20 Boys Championships a few years ago (2016) after New Zealand pulled out and you guessed it both played off in the final.

The A team was the better team and the B team had some bottom age players and players that missed out on the A team.

Reply #696769 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

You can take solace in the fact that a Vic Metro team containing Dante Exum & Ben Simmons, plus several other Australian Junior representatives ( Felix von Hofe, Jack Purchase & Geremy McKay) lost the U18 final to NSW back in 2012, I think in WA.


Reply #696770 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Make Nrthern territory apart of the wa country program.

Reply #696775 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Or SA country.

Reply #696791 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

If there is no NZ just add a 2nd Vic metro team
This will diminish Vic strength a little, and give other states hope !!

Reply #696797 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Only if they are split with equal talent.
The reserve women's team plus others would have made the top 3 at AJC.

Reply #696798 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

This is about improving the other states. What is best practice or the leading model for player development in non-metro regions across the world ? Who and how does it best ? Spain? Argentina? USA ? Do we even know ? Are we doing it ? Can we even ? Maybe 'we don't have the resources, distances are bigger etc' but we should be referencing best practice.

Reply #696800 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

What is the rationale behind splitting the 2 teams evenly if Vic Metro were to get 2 teams?

Genuine question, is it to make other states feel better if they beat them, or would it be to lessen embarrassment should the B team make the gold medal match??

I don't get it, it’s a national championships, the best player deserves to play with the other best 9 players that the coach sees fit, and if there was to be another vic metro team then surely it should be players 11-20, like how it was in u20s a couple years ago in Ipswich.

If someone can give a genuine answer as to why they should be split evenly or geographically, then I’m listening?

I know this has probably turned the conversation somewhat about vic metro having 2 teams, and I will stand by saying that at the moment, they are th only state that warrants 2 teams to even the Comp back up.

I applaud all players, coaches and TMs who participated in nationals, I’m just looking at ways for other states to help bridge the gap, consistently, not one-offs or even 2-offs

Reply #696804 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

No surprises here

Reply #696806 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

The geographical boundary of vic metro has expanded east and south in recent years.

Players from - say - Frankston now compete with players from Melbourne for rep spots in metro.

Add to that (my guess) is that participation rates has probably lifted in traditional heartlands of vic metro (could be wrong here) in recent years.

The bar has been raised although coaching standards vary considerably.

I suspect there are many intrinsically talented players located in regional, second tier clubs who would respond terrifically to elite coaching if these players were identified. A second Vic metro team would offer more opportunity for these players to be identified and assist this process.

Reply #696809 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

(04) women talent goes to vic metro but the following year (05) might be qld south.

Reply #696814 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

So #804, I'll explain my rationale behind objecting to an A/B split for Vic Metro, were they to field two teams.

1. Fielding a second side is a massive win for Vic Metro. I don't think it's unreasonable to temper the gain from that by requiring that the strength of the former 'Vic Metro' be split in some way.
2. Your argument that the best player deserves to play with the 9 other best players is absurd. The best player in the country might be from Tassie, he/she doesn't get to play with teammates of the calibre of the Vic Metro kids. I do not understand why you view this as an entitlement.
3. There has to be a mechanism by which this is managed. Vic Metro could field a bottom age side that would be extremely competitive. If you tell them that all they have to do is field two teams, with no constraint, then they could simply use the second side to develop kids who would come back to the tournament next year with not only a year of experience at that level in addition to their usual advantages, but a full year of chemistry development that other states wouldn't have. This would only widen the gap.
4. Geography is the most logical way to to create two Vic Metro sides that can't simply be manipulated to achieve whatever goals Basketball Victoria sees fit. What is the purpose of a second side? Primarily to balance the draw, and secondarily to increase the competitiveness of other states such that our other major centres lose the perception that any loss is ok as long as it's to the Vics. Obviously geography is not faultless, but it strikes me as the best of the available options.

I think anon #800's question is a good one, and from the right premise (this is about improving the other states, because the Vics are already doing a great job). But Australia is often viewed as international best practice for elite junior development due to the success of the AIS/CoE. A lot of foreign models are nearly impossible to replicate here: the US development pathways are pretty terrible, they get by on sheer numbers/popularity, and a vast number of physically superior players. And most Euro juniors enter senior club affiliated programs from their mid-teens, which is unrealistic here given the lack of resources available from NBL clubs. Canada has made great strides in recent years but in many ways that's been for the same reason as Aus: greater participation in US basketball. So I'm not sure what we can look at internationally. What are the Kiwis doing? They have obviously changed their approach, given the withdrawal of teams from our Nationals. And so far it seems to be effective, having qualified for u19 Worlds ahead of our boys and looking like they belong at the most recent u17 Worlds.

Reply #696816 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

NZ have more national championships than us with u15, u17, u19 and above.
More teams it seems also.

I think we should ditch u20s for u15 and u17 nationals on top of u16 and u18s. Plus u14 club champs.

Reply #696818 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

#816 sorry I was the person you were responding to in #804

My point about the best player, I wasn't meaning nationally, sorry for the confusion, I was meaning the best vic metro player, if that was me, I’d want to play with the best team I could to give myself the best opportunity to win a national title, cause as stated many times before, it’s rare that a team (vic metro included) that a national title gold medal match and even semis are won in absolute canters, so splitting the teams "evenly" surely dilutes both teams, even a little.

Sure a B team could conceivably win the national championship, but I’d say this would be pretty rare, and would be an indictment on the A coach

I don’t think a geographical split would work as it would have to be changed nearly every year as different teams make up VC, and the talent could come from different years on a yearly basis, and is it geographical by the club or by the players home address, as we all know of players that play for clubs that aren’t exactly in their geographical zone!!

And I’ll be clear, I don’t see the problem with it being a massive win for Vic Metro, cause if the power base changed to nsw, sa, wa, tas, qld, act or nt, I’d advocate for that state to have another team too, but at this point in time, and as history has shown, Vic Metro is the dominant program hence to even up the comp, they should have a 2nd team, and a B team at that.

Surely this also benefits our junior Australian squads and coaches by allowing another 10 players the opportunity to play at an elite national tournament

Reply #696820 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

The more junior players and coaches participating in elite national junior tournaments the better

Reply #696833 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

For what it is worth, some of you need to understand how the BA Talent pathway works. There are not many kisd who don;t get Talent ID'd.

The Coaching Director in each State/territory (Metro & Country), gets asked each year to identify their best prospects. To that end they contact the various Associations to nominate their best players.

They then hold talent ID/Selection camps to participate in NITP/NPP programs/camps.

From my understanding the Country kids have it tougher than the Metro kids as they do intensive weekend type camps as opposed to regular weekly intensive training sessions.

Then there is the the BA Centre of Excellence. Again BA contact Coaching Directors of each State/Territory and names get put forward. Selectors will attend National Championships and other tournaments checking on the talent, potential (horrible word that), skills abilites, attributes, demeanor, attitude, etc of the players identified.

Then an offer of a scholarship is made. Like any selection process (Rep, State, National) they don't always get it right and there are always differences of opinion. Unfortunately that is life.

However, don't be disheartened - as an example Kyle Adnam never made a Sate Junior Team, but is playing in the NBL and went to a recent NBA workout.

Got to admire his persistence and love of the game.

So, encourage your kids to enjoy the game, work hard and persist and if you are good enough you just might make it. Like life sometimes it also helps to be in the right place at the right time.

Reply #696893 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Cool. All is well then.

Reply #696903 | Report this post


RFomTheWest  
Two years ago

I think the last comment has hit a very important point! Encourage all to love the game, work hard and be persistent as you never know when the door will open as we are all well aware of how subjective the game was is.

Reply #696904 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two years ago

Your Adnam example is the perfect reason why Vic Metro should send 20 players to nationals, again, 40% of participants yet only 8% representation at nationals.

He'd have made nearly all the other state teams and deserved a better development pathway by experiencing playing at nationals. Credit to him for working so hard on his own, but he would have been better off if he had more chances early on.

Reply #696926 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Melbourne Boy I cant agree with your Adnam comment, he has succeeded without attending nationals and in fact how do you know that missing selection might've made him more determined to succeed and then work harder ?
Playing at Nationals guarantees nothing and i believe can even be detrimental to a junior players skill development . A strong HP program and competitive comp week in week out is way more important than making a nationals team.

Reply #696950 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two years ago

If you believe a player is better off development wise not playing nationals then you must believe we're better off cancelling them all together.

The whole point of nationals is for development and to gain experience playing in that environment and playing against the toughest competition. Sure, there may be some isolated cases where it made someone work harder to prove a point, but 99% of the time playing those tournaments only helps with the players development and progression to national teams.

Reply #696954 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

Adnam played 16/4 at Kilsyth, lots of coaches overlooked him there over the junior years too.

Reply #696957 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

16/4, was he bottom age or top age?

Reply #697079 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two years ago

Unfortunately there's many cases of coaches not selecting players at every level (Lemanis & DJ). It happened to Andrew Bogut as well. Google his story.

Adnam's case won't be the last either. I know of a boy who couldn't get selected in one of six U16 rep teams at one association (VJBL) to go and be selected in a U16/1 (VC) team. Interestingly the U16/1 team made VC finals & the association who didn't select him in one of their 6 teams - well their U16/1 team didn't make finals!!!

As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Unfortunately, in my experience there is far too many politics by domestic clubs, parents, etc in Rep team selections. People will say the same about state selection & to some extent it does with parents working for state associations or performing team manager duties. But that is not the norm. Also there are some delusional parents out there that think their child is going to play for the Opals or Boomers. Well a lot of water has to pass under that bridge. And parents, you need to be brutally honest here about the skills & abilities of your child.

And as unfortunate as it is there are generally only two of each position in the team, 2 PG, 2 SG, 2 SF, 2 PF & 2 Centres.

Reply #697086 | Report this post




 

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