At what cost?
The BSA Comp Manager again trying to control the whole of basketball in SA by claiming he can do things he cannot. Promising to replace Albury, SCC and ECC with one tournament at his favorite venue (which BSA don't run). So more cost.
End result its SA and NT. Run at a big loss. For what? To give some players a few more games. Another Fake Nationals.
I for one would rather my fees be spent on more constructive things.
2 States, 3 programs competing (if you can call NT basketball a program?)
Only reason this "tournament" is going ahead is so BSA High Performance can justify their employment.
What have they done for the year? Couple of trials, trainings and zoom meetings?
But let's give everyone an SA uniform and roll them out to play in a fake comp.
It’s an embarrassment to players who have played in big tournaments for SA previously.
And it speaks volumes about the current BSA HP set up.
Plenty of development opportunities this year...CLF, HPHN, Transition etc...all have left BSA "High Performance" for dead in terms of player development.
So I ask again, what has BSA HP done all year to justify a wage? Nothing. That's where all your fees are going, paying the “experts” to sit around doing stuff all.
Maybe my kid got a spot when it was hard earned and an achievement to represent SA?
Not this participation award, everyone gets a trophy “invitational challenge”.
Wait till you compete against Vic and NSW or it’s all fake.
Sad thing is deep down the players know it as well.
By all means, have a training/development weekend so players can have a run around, just don’t present an SA singlet and be so dismissive of what it represents.
After having all the tournaments called off last year this would be a good opportunity for the kids to play in quality teams with good level coaching. Who wouldn't want to do that. You wouldn't run this tournament anywhere other than St Clair or maybe the Lights.
A good way to prepare the kids for future rep teams and build some teamwork, comaraderie amongst the groups rather than just running coaching clinics.
Waste of time and counterproductive. Shut it down and funnel the funding back to the clubs and the state program. Set criteria for clubs to receive the funding. Shutdown CoE. CoE staff to do Talent ID, run camps and ensure clubs are delivering quality services.
Better expertise focussed on the athletes. More time for athletes to do things that actually help them develop. Less talent ID screwups. More athletes serviced.
These teams wont be quality as posted above. NT will be ultra ordinary if split up in NT1 & NT2, SA Country teams will be at a similar standard with NT likely to get a win here and there. SA metro teams will be ok, maybe a good to middle of the road district D1 club teams given they are making 2-3 teams.
With not many teams you could honestly play this tournament at Marion.
Under a Rock
NT actually aren't coming anymore, they pulled out last week.
These events were designed to give both Metro and Country players, coaches and officials a development opportunity that will hopefully improve and raise the standard of everyone involved.
While it's disappointing that both Tasmania and Northern Territory pulled out, it still has merit. This event has absolutely nothing to do with the competition manager and is purely a High Performance idea.
There is zero cost at all to Basketball South Australia with the cost of the entire event split evenly across every team via a registration fee. None of the officials are being paid for any game they referee.
So it's really just a glorified bunch of scrimmages. I assume they will be running all the same stuff. What about a chance for coaching development, let all the coaches run their own stuff and see what works and what doesn't. Instead of the same old shit, try something different, will piss all the experts off because apparently they know what's best for every team that comes through despite what strengths and weaknesses a squad brings. State is always trying to make a square peg go in a round hole.
"These events were designed to give both Metro and Country players, coaches and officials a development opportunity that will hopefully improve and raise the standard of everyone involved."
Under a rock is a fitting name. That is not the sole purpose of why the event was put on. It was, and is still being advertisied as a replacement for Country Cup, Southern Cross and East Coast. SA v SA is not a replacement for those events. It's the same kids playing against the same kids and paying an additional fee to do it. In a state uniform no less. At a privately run venue for profit, and even worse referees are expected to attend without payment.
This just gets worse and worse for BSA as more facts come out. A complete and utter failure by the organisation, but what else should we expect. They just keep going from bad to worse.
Why should officials work for free ?
With Nationals it's due to them receiving flights & accomodation
While on topic
Why did local refs get a pay cut recently on div 1 games even though post Covid game fee remained the same ?
With one ref on U12 girls games constantly do bsa promote girls as they say ?
Phil was a Nbl & International Ref for able body & an Olympic Ref for Wheelchair ball which are all great accomplishments
Danika is a Wnbl Ref
No idea what you are on about with woman in sport
Anon you said that you could hardly call themRefs
Your comment is one hundred percent without fact & credibility
Phil is one of the best referees from SA. Agreed that was unfair by the other anon.
But no disrespect to Danika, if she was Male she'd be a lowly ranked PL referee at best. She is where she is because she's female. I assume that's the reason for the comments about female participation.
Scrap the tournament, another BSA High Performance failure.
Let families have the summer off instead of having to commit to a meaningless set of pick up games right in the middle of their holidays.
Instead, get BSA staff to go around to all venues and do stadium maintenance, pull up weeds, fix leaking roofs etc and actually do something productive for their wage, which our fees pay for.
Weird that AFL and Cricket aren't played 12 months of the year?
Weird that basketballers quit from burnout or stress related injuries before they even turn 18?
Weird that Coaches, Referees and Admin get burnout from the stress, pressure and required commitment of the sport 12 months of the year, leading to less and less quality?
Its not as simple as just playing basketball.
why shouldn't they promote country and women? so you say metro males are they only group not being promoted? weird. are you suggesting this tournament is being paid for by every single member of basketball SA? i thought it was being met the parents of the participants?
So you just ignored all the negatives? Because in your mind there's nothing wrong with playing bball all the time.
I love ice cream but pretty sure there's plenty wrong with me having it for breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. Just because I can and I love it.
Not jealous at all. If my child was in this age group and got an invite we would have happily declined.
I'm sorry you know so little about kids club sport that you think its all that simple.
My ice cream comparison was actually quite perfect really. Just because kids love to play basketball doesn't mean its good for them or their families to do so 24/7.
Still ignoring all the issues that creates, the costs, the referees, coaches and admin commitments.
But just let them play is the only response you have and it's actually ridiculous.
Dismissing valid comments around the commitment levels we ask of children in our sport, especially children selected in high performance programs, is narrow minded.
I'm not saying the AIC holds no value, (I'm also not saying it does), but it's a valid question to ask.
"Country won't win a game"....?
Not sure what happened at the Nationals a couple of years ago when the Country 16 Boys played off for the Bronze medal?
And the stacked Metro 16 Boys dream team, full of COE, Aus Campers and an Australian rep imploded and flopped to 8th under current BSA HP Manger Scott Butlers coaching?
Sit down, shut up and pull your head in.
"My ice cream comparison was actually quite perfect really."
Actually no it is an extremely stupid analogy and a huge exaggeration. On average over 12 months a junior would play a game or have training twice a week. I think you can have an ice cream twice a week. Even if the season is more condensed when the training/games happen it isn't close to your stupid exaggeration of 1095 ice creams a year.
Burn out would be more a cause from bad coaches that has destroyed their love for the game, not making a particular team, being on a team with players they don't like, playing multiple sports, parents that give them the wrong type of support etc
These are young fit healthy juniors that can do a 1 hour game and several training's a week.
Sixers, but no fit athletic junior is doing just that.
Add to the 1 game and 2 trainings a week so 3.5 hours of basketball (plus travel),
Tournaments every long weekend of up to 5 or 6 games in 3 days,
their college/high school commitment of trainings/game a week,
School Basketball Tournaments, Nationals
their HP commitment of 1-2 training plus indis,
then state trials, trainings, scratch matches
then possible NBL1 training
and lastly their commitment in their own time at home, at lunch at school, social ball with mates, shooting at the local ring etc.
Yes I'm sure the answer will be they do all that by choice, but drop one and you're blacklisted and won't ever make State get dropped to Div 3 or you'll be required to change school and/or club.
12 months a year, year after year some of the elite kids started playing at 7. Or with Domestic Leagues even younger.
Then add in a bad coach, or a good coach with high expectations, added trainings, weights, fitness sessions. Or a difficult/negative parental group, or team mates you just can't get along with. But have to be around all that time all year round, year after year.
Not to mention US College tapes, Scouts etc.
Then add in they might be an AFL, Soccer or Netball athlete. Or go to a sport specialist school where they'd be required to play another sport if their athletic enough to be at that level.
When do they get a social life? Time for homework, focus on studies? Family holidays? All around their basketball commitments. Have a guess why so many girls quit as they get to 13, hit highschool and social peer pressure hits.
The burden on a player, their whole family (both in time, pressure, expectation and money) is extreme.
I'm more surprised any survive what the system forces kids to go through to "just play".
got to love how "athlete burn out" is due to everyone and everything else but not the athlete. the no responsibility generation.
Just for context, approx. how many of the 12 months did SA athletes have the opportunity to play and train in 2020?
18s not out yet.
unfortunately, to be elite and if you have a desire to make basketball your job it is a sport that requires an extremely high level of commitment year on year. i get it that very few will achieve that goal but there are seemingly many who want to give it their best shot of achieving it. comparing it to football may not be the st example as that is a sport where numerous have shown you can not have even played the sport for most of your adolescence and young adulthood but cross over and make it your profession. No one has done that with basketball. perhaps rather than look at football as a comparison looking at another sport. swimming comes to mind as an extremely high commitment level required to reach the elite level ie olympics and worlds. it is simple though, if your child doesnt want to commit or you dont want them too then dont no one is forcing you.
Agree with #602 but even in AFL at the elite junior levels it isn't just 6 months a year. They have endless camps, training sessions etc If you’re playing TAC Cup for example you get about 8 week away from the club a year but in that 8 weeks you still have to do individuals so you come back in shape. Elite sport is a commitment
#6597 you don't get to an elite level without HUGE commitment and little ice cream. If your point is that it’s too much for kids who want to play at a v good level without going further, then yeah sure it can be. That’s a decision a family needs to make, and many don’t do so in a deliberate manner.
On a serious point about drop off after 14s, it's that age kids probably have to specialize at a sport and most boys go to footy full time, some just use summer seasons to get fitness work in. West used to have some good athletes, but because you knew they wouldn't play winter, you put them in lower divs. Then the parents would have a whinge, why is their son playing div 3 or 4.
The problem is not doing too much. It is that some of us parents feel obliged to commit our kids to a pathway with substandard coaching, talent ID and leadership in this state to the detriment of the development of the children. Just look at most of the older guys "making it" and the coaches that REALLY help them. It has nothing to do with this rubbish. This stuff is just a distraction from the things that matter for the kids and takes up their valuable time that could be spent actually getting better.
How often do kids that "make it" boycott this stuff, get cut from it, or don't make it until the 11th hour when the AIS or BA sees them then suddenly they get picked locally?
It is for fools by fools.
^ exactly. High performance programs have to justify their existence with rubbish like this. Majority of the kids will never make it. Good argument is you don't know if you don't try. That's where clubs come in. They should be ones doing development, it's in their interest.
If you want to really know how disgraceful the BSA HP talent ID is, Olbrich from the Tigers never played Nationals. Never competed for SA Metro at a National tournament.
Word is he's off to the NBA Global Academy.
That’s gross negligence from those employed at BSA High Performance, Basketball Australia should come in and seize control of the program.
Earlier this year
636 Olbtich should've probably made U 16 but didn’t and missed out on a very strong 18’s team that won a medal as a bottom ager and was going to 18’s until covid hit . The program has worked well for many athletes who have benefited from exposure at nationals , Rasmussen, Griffen and Ipassou most recently. For many athletes it’s part of the journey and whether it’s beneficial or not is often up to the individual. So many experts on here with no accountability
637, name some then. I'm not saying the high performance program is the reason for kid's success - just pointing out you're categorically incorrect in your assertion.
636, I have nothing but respect for the young man (knowing him personally), but assuming that anyone was a great player several years ago because they are a great player now, frankly, is moronic. He had potential, was extremely coachable and worked his tail off to get where he is now. It's also obvious he would have played this year, were it not for Covid. As a bottom-ager among a very talented top-age group, it's also obvious that competition for spots was tough.
It's pretty clear you both have a vendetta against BSA. I get that and actually agree with a lot of the points you make, but shitposting like this completely negates that to the point that nobody actually cares about your perspective.
Olbrich is 6'10", averages 25+pts a game and just led the Tigers to the State Champs/Grand Final titles.
He has never played Nationals because he didn’t play for a big inner city club. Everyone knows the whole thing is corrupt, don’t try and defend it.
Some of the players that miss out is beyond belief.
Basketball is a fantastic game and should be in a position to challenge the AFL as the premier sport in this country, but all the political boys club nepotistic crap continues to keep the handbrake on.
642, until recently Olbrich was always only a fringe guy. His rapid improvement in the past 12 months is what's taken him to where he is at now. It's not that he's ever been overlooked, he just wasn't the elite player he is now. Absolutely dominated the grand final a few weeks back.
Talent ID is about the here and now and more importantly the potential and capacity for improvement.
If BSA HP couldn't see that Olbrich was going to become the player he is now, with his size, basketball IQ and the skill set he had a couple of years ago then they should be replaced by people who can.
He’s shown plenty over a long period of time.
646, correct. These programs are supposed to do talent ID and player development. Not jumping on kids when they are elite as you put it. They were supposed to actually help him get there. That is why they are funded. They almost always don't help these kids at all.
That is why events like this are an issue. They take valuable time away from the kids and their families.
644...a clueless idiot or right on the money? Maybe you are part of the boys club and it got a bit close to home.
BSA HP has lost all credibility over the years.
That's why a club like North are loading up their program, forging a new pathway where they in full control of their talent ID and development and bypassing the political swamp.
Any young promising player in this State should be looking at pathways like Transition, HPHN, CLF etc for proper development and opportunities from proper Coaches and experts.
I wouldn't put CLF in there re talent identification they feed information into bsa hp, their sessions are far from independent he consults directly with bsa hp and the coaches that support these are influential with bsa hp it’s part of the closed shop
"until recently Olbrich was always only a fringe guy."
If my memory is correct he was the league leading scorer in 16s when he wasn't selected. Hardly sounds like a fringe player if that was the case. Instead a couple of North bench players where ahead of him that are div 2 18's players now. Anyone could tell that those players had inflated stats due to having a physically dominate team.
Don't know if Olbrich is the best example of high performance failing.
Not certain but I’m pretty sure he’s been a part of the various basketball sa high performance programs for many years and made the final state squad as a second year 16s (should of made the team), a reserve in 18s as a bottom ager (unlucky but fair as the second year bigs were really good and SA got a silver), made the team in 18s as a second year and made the 20s as a bottom ager.
All sports will have stories of those overlooked making it at a later date and vice versa.
How many NBA All Star stories are there out there of players who didn’t have any of the big time college programs recruiting them such as Lillard and Curry.
Yaak is another guy that hasn't actually suited up in a proper tournament for SA (correct me if I’m wrong here) yet will be going to AIS at the start of the school year. He is still eligible to play in 18s this year but maybe has realised the rewards for playing for BSA aren’t really what it’s all cracked up to be. While yes previously he experienced injuries in 16s, to his hip from memory, and couldn’t go last year because of COVID but is currently training w the 36ers and is choosing to not play state out of choice. With him and pihillipou both not playing state it outlines that maybe kids are starting to realise that playing for BSA isn’t really desirable.
Perhaps a bigger question than the SA Metro ones are why so many of the SA Country U16 team that got top 4 two years ago aren't even playing club basketball any more? 6 of the 10 don’t appear to be playing club basketball at all. I’m assuming most are playing footy but still disappointing.
661...the commitment required from Country players and their families is huge. Non stop travel from Mt Gambier Broken Hill Pt Lincoln and everywhere in between.
The time and money involved is staggering and it eventually takes a toll.
It's funny watching these Metro types taking pot shots from their privileged seats when their biggest worry is if training is at Wayville or St Clair.
Earlier this year
Well done to the Country lads in one of their Under 16's win on the board first up...did someone say Country wouldn't win a game? And mention of a training run for the Metro teams.
Sure things will crank up a gear or two now, but good to see the under dogs with some early bite!
Sorry not sure which coaches were involved in the two teams.
Earlier this year
Under 18 Girls
Metro Red 48
Country Magpies 49
Under 18 Boys
Metro Red 68
Country Magpies 45
Under 16 Girls
Metro Red 43
Country Magpies 42
Under 16 Boys
Metro Red 54
Country Magpies 60
Are the scores posted so far...earlier games not up as yet for some reason.
Hi there, would like to know if there are any takeaways from the games so far and which players are looking like standouts? Preferably in the 18s but any age group would be interesting. Personally, from the 18s games I've seen Osborne has been looking really impressive, rasmussen’s younger brother has been good too as well as McDonald in regard to the first years. A shame that yaak isn’t playing but ah well understandable. Some of the bigs look like they’ve got genuine shots on them, any idea how this team is set to go at nationals?
The fact of the matter most of the success for these athletes comes through which club environment they are in. The player development, mentoring, guidance and support they receive at club level is the greatest influence to their success and achievement outside of their own inherent capabilities and direct family support. Normally it is 1or2 individuals within the club that truly drive this in a direct, specific way for athletes.
Looking at top 5 scorers in U18s for example I note:
It's not hard for families to figure out if they do their research and make smart decisions.
Fact as our Deputy PM states it maybe.
Fact is the matter of most success comes from the athlete themselves. Having the physical attributes, ability and attitude required to make it to the very highest level. Other factors compliment this but it varies greatly depending on the athlete as to what environment is best. As an example it should be remembered that Newley's U18 Club team didn't win a game. He's done ok for himself since.
Parents only need consider that, and also any impact on the player of moving clubs, negative or positive.
Looking at top 5 scorers in U18s boys for example I note that they all want to move to winning teams thereby diluting the competition:
2. Eastern then North
3. Forestville, Woodville then north now back to woodville
4. Eastern then Sturt
5. Forestville then sturt
ahaha grabbing a single example from over 25 yrs ago to demonstrate argument. By top age, U20s Newley was one of the best in the nation. He had great coaching to support his inherent gifts and family support. It is not about how many games his club team win it was about the development.
380, no. They moved to get better. It is clearly working. Smart move. They have improved at a rate far faster than their peers.
Best advice for any parent is....let your kid play where they are happy..
Clubs out there will promise the world, tell you that your kid is college, COE, NBL, NBA bound if you move...that they have the best coaches etc
They are trying to poach their way to success.
Truth is these same clubs don't REALLY care about your kid...they are just trying to load up their teams and stockpile all the talent to compete in Melbourne club tournaments and in the long run it hurts SAs competition and player development, because it dilutes the overall strength of our district comp.
It’s all fools gold and if BSA were serious they would outlaw the systematic poaching tactics these clubs employ.
Great players will be great no matter what and no matter where.
Adelaides born and bred and most famous NBA player Joe Ingles isn’t from North Norwood or Sturt...he’s from Southern Tigers.
If your kid is happy in the club and team environment and keep developing their love for basketball, thats the best chance of success for a junior player.
Then the game has got them for life, not like the huge burnout and drop off after under 18s we have now.
418 I believe clubs should be given zones and/or regions to develop.
Give Centrals, Eastern and Southern their regions as they are Country based district clubs.
A lot of the Metro teams are aligned with schools... Norwood/PAC...Sturt/Cabra....North/ Nazareth which is a major advantage anyway to be able to develop players in that academy based system.
Let clubs invest in their communities, schools and neighbourhoods...get creative and productive and see how good they REALLY are at coaching and developing players....not just going to an Adelaide Invitational and poaching players from clubs they perceive as "weaker" ....there's no honour in that.
Transition, HPHN and SA HP are not mutually exclusive for SA HP athletes. They all serve different needs. Sure SA HP has many issues in SA but it has done so nice the NG era. HPHN and Transition are just filling in the holes, but are not alternative paths.
What I've seen in the boys and watched a few games, Metro U15's stronger than U16's looking into future. Under 15 Metro too strong for the two country teams. Country have 3 lads that are looking good but across 2 teams that ain't going to work, maybe should have only entered 1 team? Metro (Mackenzie, Cotton, Sabine, Maleza) Country (Lindner, Corbett, Marr McGuire) same names that pretty much appeared in the top stats in Div 1 Under 14 from last season.
Not sure there 984, two of the country U14 teams are higher on the "ladder" than two of the metro teams (noted 4 teams are on 2-2 wine loss ratio) So on that comment you are saying that 2 of the metro teams would also only be D2/3...that should be great concern for future in SA?
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