Red84
Two years ago

U17 World Cups - Men and Women - July 2022

This thread hopes to attract posts regarding the exploits of our U17 men and women's teams at their respective world cups in July 2022.

Topic #50221 | Report this topic


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Surprising Lithuania beat one of the favourites Spain.

Reply #894960 | Report this post


Clark  
Two years ago

Anyone know what is being taped out on the playing shorts of the Australian boys and also on the coaches/support staff's polo shirts?

I know, a random question

Reply #895020 | Report this post


Clark  
Two years ago

Great 2nd half by the boys against Egypt, really blew it open with some great D

Reply #895028 | Report this post


Ski 63  
Two years ago

Might be a clever tactic by Spain. Lose to Lithuania which places them second in their pool and therefore on the other side of the draw to USA. Unfortunately means likely opponent for the Australian Crocs in the quarter final...

Reply #895100 | Report this post


Ozzymandis  
Two years ago

Is this one of the weakest teams we've sent to the u17 worldcup? They've been really poor thus far, despite what the scorecard says. Outside of zikarsky, no one looks like really they belong at that level.

Reply #895106 | Report this post


Eagle  
Two years ago

I agree except for Kye savage who I think has stepped up well in his minutes. All the other guards have looked turnover prone or too passive, this group also seems to have a habit where they can only pass with their favoured hand leading to some strange across the body passes.

Reply #895110 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

The team is just ok. Half the team might make the nbl in the future.

We are in the easiest group and a win vs Argentina gives us Lebanon in the round of 16.
The 1/4 finals puts us up against Spain, Canada or Serbia which means a probable loss and we are likely finishing in the 6-8 range once again.
We are world ranked 8th at junior level currently, so about what's expected.


6th in 2010
2nd in 2012
2nd in 2014
7th in 2016
6th in 2018
Cancelled 2020
2022?

Reply #895114 | Report this post


Pasadena 72  
Two years ago

Who were the best players in the silver medal sides?

Also curious what is being taped over. A lapsed sponsor perhaps?

Reply #895121 | Report this post


Juice  
Two years ago

Women currently in Spain have lost all 3 matches. Have resorted to playing 2-3 zone for most of the game

Aus 64 - Espana 56
Aus 71 - USA 108
Aus 35 - France 53

Reply #895234 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Good win by Aus over Argentina, Lebanon next. Top 8 guaranteed.

With the womens team, the last few roster spots chosen were all about internal ba politics and now I'm sure the coaching staff have realised they have no depth. 4 of the 12 offer nothing and are not even getting court time anymore.

Reply #895236 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Hello Juice - are those 3 practice games somewhere on the net? Pardon me in advance if location is obvious.

Reply #895242 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Games are on canalfeb.tv

Reply #895243 | Report this post


ME (he/kangaroo)  
Two years ago

I think history has shown that junior performance doesnt always correlate with senior performance and as such I am less worried about these outcomes than a certain fake Australian who shall go unnamed would be. The upcoming senior teams will be an amalgamation of players from multiple junior teams plus kids who developed much later or simply didn't play international junior tournaments. There are a couple of kids who look like future Boomers though - Savage, Suileppa, Zikarsky, Brigss. When these guys make the Boomers the veterans are going to be Dyson Daniels, Josh Giddey, Matisse Thybulle etc and they all come together to create something much better than our junior teams. But I would be lying if I said I didnt want the juniors to do better and that BA needs to figure out why theyre not

Reply #895245 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Concerning our girls

Thanks for the link Weedy

I just saw the France game. Sure our team was soundly beaten, but I think they will gain a lot of insights from this difficult game. The type of game that wins against Japan or Korea will struggle Vs teams like France/USA that boast size and speed. We need to play in a different way - less banging in the ball to our bigs; less hero ball driving from the perimeter. The question is whether coach York learn from this and whether we have the players who can execute changes she should demand.

As an aside - the game was played in v hot conditions and I think it sapped the strength of many our girls.

There are many aspects of our game that needs adjusting. But our principal problem is our offense - scoring a paltry 35 points - to many times our guards could not find a quality look; and when they did, they too often chose to drive to the rim rather than back themselves and make the shot. The French have some big units on the floor who are quite mobile. By driving our guards trade a quality set shot look for a size and number mismatch inside the paint. Result - too many drives were blocked or poor quality shots put up.

How to create quality shot looks (?) is the key question coach York has to ask. The answer is to combine faster ball movement, more and better executed screens and (what is often neglected) more work done by ball receivers to get open and then protect the incoming pass. Consider the pick and pop, rather than the pick and roll.

Reply #895263 | Report this post


JJ  
Two years ago

I've got the link to the games but don’t know how to find them. Does anyone know where to find the games on the APP?

Reply #895280 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

You need to register on the website. Which is straightforward, no money etc

I am on a desktop, can't speak for the mobile experience

Once you are in - you should see the "Canal Feb.TV" logo on top LH corner
There are 3 items in the menu - from left to right
Competiciones; Campeonatas de Espana; Selecciones


Click on "Selecciones", the Aussie games are there.

Reply #895282 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

For the girls - I just had a look at the games Aus Vs USA and Aus vs Spain

We can take out Spain should we meet them in the WC. In this practice game the Spanish refs have - let me say - a rather "liberal attitude" to body barging by Spanish guards. Look half way through 3Q at the unfortunate treatment meted out to our Rubi Gray. Absolutely disgraceful reffing. Also watch for the full on elbow pushes by Spanish screeners when they are in their off. If Spain had played in the Asian regional finals, they would rack up fouls faster than Trump tells lies. Anyhow one must go with the flow - this is the international game.

Again - we don't look to set up our off for the set shot. Our guards are always driving to the rim taking on heroic shots. It is not as if they can't shoot - some of the worst hero ball drivers are potent shooters...when they get round to it.

Reply #895283 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

The reality is the womens team was poorly selected, if it was York, Carr and co then poor results should mean the forfeit of the sapphires job. Should be top 5 or you lose your job at the helm. The 05/06 talent pool is not the best we've ever had but should be good enough to fight for medals and to maintain the junior girls ranking. We are currently #2.

Seebohm was great, won gold, 2 years later won bronze then moved to uni team and won gold whilst coaching in the wnbl. We went from #8 to #3 under him.
Herbert has also been good for the gems. Silver medal first campaign, retains his job for 2023.
Butler was poor first campaign with a very talented group, finishing 6th but won silver 2 years later eventhough we were terrible all tournament, we pushed the USA into overtime.
All these good results have us world ranked #2

The next sapphires 07/08 is one of the most talented we’ve ever had, if this u17 WC goes bad, changes should occur.

Reply #895284 | Report this post


AlphabetA  
Two years ago

@Pasadena 72

2012 side had Dante Exum and Ben Simmons, Exum made the tournament team; 2014 side had DJ Vasiljevic and Isaac Humphries, both made the tournament team, H. Froling, Jack White and Kouat Noi were also on that team.

Reply #895287 | Report this post


Pasadena 72  
Two years ago

Thank you. Some decent names there.

Reply #895389 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Not a bad first half for aus, lots of turnovers...

Reply #895468 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Cmon Aus, just 1 more 1/4.
Dent been solid controlling the game.

Reply #895469 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Dent the only one hustlin in the last 1/4

Reply #895470 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Choked in the last 1/4, good effort overall but did not have any determination left.
Let at 8 point lead slip.

70-68, Spain win.

5-8 finish now.

Reply #895471 | Report this post


ME (he/kangaroo)  
Two years ago

Australia took the L today and will sit 5-8. But they took it right up to Spain which is always a powerhouse and looks like some pretty good kids are going to graduate through to the Boomers, which flies in the face of the Ozymandis talk. Three more points and the Crocs are a top four team. I dont take the juniors super seriously for the reasons I mention but as a yard stick for the future, if you look past placing and at the games theyre playing, they'll be alright

Reply #895475 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Regarding our chaps vs Spain

We have a good team with high quality players. And one cannot question their effort and endeavour. Today was a bitter loss because Australia is a better team than 5-to-8th in the world. And it is a bitter loss because this was a game that was there for the taking at 3/4 quarter time. To give up a 10 point lead and fold in the 4th quarter as Aust did requires close review.

The contrasts of game style in Q4 represents a case study for coaches.

Remember the conventional wisdom that has prevailed for the past decade or so - that is, ignore the mid range, go for drives and 3s. Well Spain ignored these tactics in Q4, Australia slavishly followed it. And Spain won and Australia lost.

Reply #895476 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Aus boys beat Slovenia, now we finish 5-6.

Aus girls lose 1st game to Slovenia in OT, an absolute failure at this level.

Reply #895498 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Sapphires
OT 81 Vs Slovenia 87

Petrie 43 mins
Clark 40 mins
Juffermans 35 mins
Shiels 34 mins
Laditan 31 mins
...
Harvey 20 mins
Betson 11 mins
Hanson 5 mins
Gray 4 mins

Bobongie DNP
Bradley DNP
Portlock DNP


No way should these minute distributions be acceptable as a professional coach.

Reply #895499 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Spain beat France.
USA vs Spain final.

Pity aus lost it in the last 1/4 or we could be in the final.

Reply #895502 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

U17 boys WC

1/2
USA v Spain

3/4
France v lithuania

5/6
Australia v Serbia

7/8
Poland v Slovenia

9/10
Canada v Egypt

11/12
Nz v Argentina

13/14
Japan v Dominican Republic

15/16
Lebanon v Mali

Reply #895503 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

Is 'Laditan' Twidale Weedy? Hard to understand why Betson doesn’t get more time. She’s our best post feeder, we break full court pressure better when she’s on and our team defence is also noticeably better when she is on.

Reply #895504 | Report this post


JJ  
Two years ago

FACT: they got the team 100% incorrect

Big minutes are required to be played for certain players for AUS to be competitive. I guess that would be okay if they had the bench that could help. They don't and because they haven’t then players on there can’t contribute value minutes. The coach obviously doesn’t trust what she has on the bench. 3 players didn’t even play. I get the selection with Bobongie but the other two no way should have been included. Hansen was out played at nationals by others including another team mate that didn’t even make the selection camp. What we also lack is another quality point guard, Harvey not up to it and again another COE girl out played at nationals but selected because of being at the COE.

This team needed to add players like Burrows, Peacock, Wickstrom, Donnelly and Kurkowski, but 3 of these girls didn’t even make the camp.

It’s going to be a long competition for the girls that are playing big minutes and if that’s the case then the girls are just not going to have enough in the tank to win games. I truely hope they can pick themselves.

Reply #895513 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Agree, burrows, wickstrom, Kurkowski, peacock, donnelly, webb, Crichton all better options to the bench.
Hall from 07 would have added something too.

We are on the good side of draw and could make semis even losing to France in 2 days, crossover helps us.

Reply #895514 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Our Women's team
Fought hard. But Slovenia deserved to win. Our offense is slow and ponderous. Ditto our ball movement. The pathways to victory for Slovenia lie in (1) the quality of their shooting when against a settled Aust defense and (2) their capacity to generate turnovers and efficiency in transition.
Bottom line - Aust had to look after the ball - which Aust didn't - reflecting a choice of personnel on the floor who are better shooting guards than point guards. As the game progressed, Slovenia worked out that Aust was vulnerable in the back court to a press. They also took advantage of the lack of speed of our bigs when defending - Slovenia tended to swing the ball to draw our bigs out and then run past them, often drawing fouls. Morale in the Aust camp looks down. Prior Aust teams have had down moments in past WCs only to regroup and improve. Let's hope this group has this fighting quality within them.

Reply #895517 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Can posters please remember these girls are minors - please refrain from mentioning names when engaging in critical comment. Refer to function, role and systems - not to individuals. And be a little charitable - they are our team fighting it out.

Reply #895521 | Report this post


JJ  
Two years ago

Red84. No ones being critical, it's fact. It’s called a forum. What was being pointed out was the lack of selection by coaches and names of players needed to be named. Yes they are kids and they are going to make mistakes but they were put there and now coaches showing no faith at all.

I hope they can get it right over the next few games

Reply #895525 | Report this post


JJ  
Two years ago

Red84. No ones being critical, it's fact. It’s called a forum. What was being pointed out was the lack of selection by coaches and names of players needed to be named. Yes they are kids and they are going to make mistakes but they were put there and now coaches showing no faith at all.

I hope they can get it right over the next few games

Reply #895526 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

JJ - IMO the following crosses the line. Put yourself in the shoes of these girls who may eventually read this:
"Hansen was out played at nationals by others including another team mate that didn't even make the selection camp. What we also lack is another quality point guard, Harvey not up to it and again another COE girl out played at nationals". Critical, directly naming 2 individuals you think are not up to standard.
And yes this is a public forum, all the more reason to exercise discretion when posting. Some people get it, others don't.

Reply #895533 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Sapphires likely finish 3rd behind France, Slovenian in the b group means a crossover round of 16 with hungary, a beatable team, then spain the 1/4s, very unlikely. Then France semis.
Tough road.

Reply #895549 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Energy clearly sapped from last game and still no changes.

Reply #895560 | Report this post


Pinch  
Two years ago

Getting a bit chippy

Reply #895565 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Argentina takes the gold medal for disgraceful play - barging, moving screens, dangerously pushing dribblers/cutters from behind. Special mention to #12 who seemed to spend most of her time with her arm bar constantly pushing our girls from the side or from behind. Silver goes to the refs who too often went AWOL in this near melee. It was the sort of result you expect when the United Nations gets involved. Firm intervention early on would have stopped the Argentine nonsense, which just escalated as the game went on. Finding themselves in a wrestling match without a referee our girls adapted, played with greater physicality and pushed out the lead in the second half. Well done in what was the ugliest contest I have witnessed in a long time.

Reply #895567 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Ugly, ugly game for sure.

Reply #895568 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Loss to Serbia in the boys in another close one.
WC complete, australia finish 6th, same result as 2018.
Finsishing higher up than our World ranking is always a good sign.

Reply #895570 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Australia getting run over in the 4th again after a 10 point lead at the last break. That's the third time this tournament, certainly needs to be addressed about the lack of desire late in games.

Reply #895571 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

USA win the WC again but acted like a bunch of idiots after.

Reply #895572 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Two years ago

"Australia getting run over in the 4th again after a 10 point lead at the last break. That's the third time this tournament, certainly needs to be addressed about the lack of desire late in games."

This is why being in the Asian zone is in many ways a negative. Don't get the chance to play in tight international games like this where you need to execute down the stretch.

It's long been an issue for Australian basketball that can be overcome at the senior level through continuity as teams keep their core over multiple major tournaments.

Reply #895574 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Weedy writes
"USA win the WC again but acted like a bunch of idiots after."

How true, how true.

A case where a group of poor winners (team USA) meeting a bunch of sore losers (the Spanish team and boorish fans).

Reply #895581 | Report this post


Juice  
Two years ago

What do you mean idiots weedy???

Reply #895582 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Aus matchin France so far but starters playing heavy minutes again.

Reply #895679 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

And just like that, France up by 20.
Struggling to get it over the half.

Reply #895683 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

Great comeback by the Aussies

Reply #895688 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Going to fall short but much better effort than friendly game pre WC.
No depth unfortunately, 1/3 of the team playing less than 5 mins.
Think Portlock has played just 10 mins in 6 or so games.

Reply #895689 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Great to see more competitive spirit by our girls in the second half. Those French bigs just dominated - hard to match up on - you cover one, and there are 2 others!
Almost by accident - not design - that two 3 pointers were put up in Q4 that sparked a revival. Good things happen when you shoot the ball - funny that. Compress the defense and then look for shooters on the perimeter - pretty standard stuff, but until those two 3 pointers occurred we have not seen this performed by this team. Rather the form has been - once the ball goes in - either via a pass to a big or a dribble drive - it stays inside the key, attracting a crush of defenders. Congestion and slow ball movement are the hallmarks of this team. Cutters not presenting good targets to dribblers resulting in traps and poor passes.
I have seen enough to conclude this - the coaching of this team has been unimaginative (in systems and selections) and uninspiring (the girls have looked a miserable bunch, not all that vocal on the bench).
I support these girls and I know just how hard many of them have trained to make the team and the sacrifices they have made. Frankly I just feel sorry for them. Their adventure is not turning out very well and many appear profoundly disappointed.

Reply #895691 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Belgium beating japan was surprising, looks like the sapphires will play Belgium in the round of 16.
A win and a 1/4 final with Spain.
A win and semi final with France.

Reply #895695 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

I don't disagree with the rest of your post Red84, but your last paragraph is a really soft take

"Frankly I just feel sorry for them. Their adventure is not turning out very well and many appear profoundly disappointed."

Many other girls who were not selected (many not even given an opportunity to trial, Bonnie Deas comes to mind) would kill to be in their shoes! They need to stop feeling sorry for themselves (if that’s what they’re doing), and play the best (hardest) ball they’re capable off.

As you said, it’s their adventure, they should make the most of it.

Reply #895697 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

I think our girls are quite capable of beating Spain and make the SF. I've got no idea about the virtues of Belgium, but if they beat Japan then that suggests they will be a challenge.

This is the part of the tournament that our coaches need to implement changes in game style.
Three changes I suggest.
First - concerns ball movement in offence - adopt the accordion analogy - look to compress the defence with the aim of creating time and space for shooters on the perimeter or mid range 2s. Once we hit a few shots the defence will respond by not compressing as much in the key - as a consequence this will free up space inside, increasing the efficiency of post moves/dribble drives.
Second - our posts need to be far more mobile around the key, setting and then resetting screens. What does this look like? Look at how the French used their bigs. Task our bigs with getting off the ball cutters open. (A digression - in this we need FIBA refs to be reasonable - the last lot in the game vs France- particularly the Serbian ref, was excessively harsh on our posts, yet was very lenient on the French).
Third - provide more help for our ball carriers to move the ball up the court. At a national level, our incapacity to get this job done relying on one or two ball carriers is an embarrassment. Yet here we are - the focus is minimizing turnovers. So do what you must - trail the big, more off ball screens for pass recepients....whatever.

Reply #895703 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Current COE scholarships

Loughridge 04
Harvey 06
Gray 05
Borlase 04
Clark 05
Shiels 06
Puoch 04
Hanson 05
Petrie 05
Bird 06
Gordon 04
Juffermans 05
Portlock 06

Team needs a big changeover imo.
Loughridge, Borlase, Puoch and Gordon should be in college, wnbl or nbl1 in 2023.
Not sure Harvey, Gray, Hanson, Petrie should be there long term, very unlikely they make the upcoming u19 team.

Only ones who should remain based on potential are
Clark
Shiels
Bird
Juffermans
Portlock

Should be 7 open spots for 06/07 athletes.

Reply #895730 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Aus beat Belgium to advance to 1/4s where we will face Spain or Mali.

Reply #895731 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

1/4s


Hungary vs Canada
-
Japan vs USA


Australia vs Spain
-
France vs Germany




Should be some close matches.
Lucky we have a days rest, australia needed it.

Reply #895742 | Report this post


Footloose  
Two years ago

What do you think our chances are against Spain Weedy?

Reply #895743 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

60/40 split to Spain.
Same as pre WC friendly.

Reply #895744 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Agree. I give it to Spain by 20 points. Unlike against Belgium, Aust does not have a size/strength advantage with the bigs when it plays Spain. And our guards do hog the ball and are not trained to foster good passing and faster ball movement. But even with this squad, Aust can beat Spain, but it requires big changes in our game style which I've written about earlier. Let's see what happens!

Reply #895750 | Report this post


CoachGirl  
Two years ago

And our guards do hog the ball and are not trained to foster good passing and faster ball movement. But even with this squad, Aust can beat Spain, but it requires big changes in our game style which I've written about earlier.

I have been reading this for a while now and am thinking about how hard the challenge of selecting and preparing a team is given the lack of game play over the last 2 years. The players have had less development time, less game experience in critical development years and there have been less competitions and camps etc at a National level, making everything just that bit harder.

Its easy to be critical, but these kids are giving it their best shot and I know most of us are so pleased to see them do well. Having coached one of these players, and others who had very limited time at previous world championships, I know just how hard it is to keep everyone mentally involved for a long campaign and it seems (through my TV screen) that this isnt quite as cohesive a team as, say, the one that won the gold in Italy a few years back.

It isnt possible to change a whole style of play between games, so they have to remain committed to the tools at their disposal now and hope they execute everything as well as they can to get past the next round.

I will be cheering from home and continue to be pleased that there are coaches who are interested in taking on challenges like this one.. its a big ask, a great opportunity, but one that only a few feel confident to take on.

Reply #895772 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

CoachGirl - respect to you - I find your points well considered and clearly expressed. As you know, tonight will be - for many of our girls - the biggest game they will play in their bball careers. Win tonight against Spain - which is a real possibility - they will be battling for medals at a WC! Imagine that. No watching the footy tonight for this punter.

Reply #895793 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Girls junior medals should be the norm when you look at the last 6 years.
Our World rank of 2 is fantastic, finishing outside the top 5 should result in a coaching change.


U17
2010 7th
2012 5th
2014 5th
2016 1st
2018 3rd
2020 cancelled
2022 ?

U19
2011 4th
2013 3rd
2015 3rd
2017 6th
2019 2nd
2021 2nd
2023 ?

Reply #895797 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Close first 1/4, both teams already tired.

Reply #895820 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Extremely dissappointing so far, no effort, no fight and we are down 18 half way into the 2nd 1/4. Cmon girls!

Reply #895821 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

14 down at the half, 24-38

Reply #895822 | Report this post


Pinch  
Two years ago

Tonight to watch the lack of effort for some of the players.

Reply #895823 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Fighting back, down by 8 half way through the third

Reply #895825 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

14 down with last 1/4 to go. Doesn't look good....

Reply #895828 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Sapphires lose 62-46

5-8 finish.

Reply #895830 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Change in score.

62-51 loss

Reply #895831 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

3 players playing less than 3 mins a game.
2 players playing less than 10 mins a game.
2 players playing less than 17 mins a game.
and 5 players playing 26-36 mins a game...


The selectors and coaching staff screwed up big time.
Hopefully a complete change for u15 oceanias.

Reply #895832 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

With our girls so young at the U17 level, their playing virtues and faults strongly reflect on the quality of coaching they have received at the regional and club level. Club coaches encounter our girls at their formative yeears and shape their skill-set, their athleticism and their decision making. Across these areas national coaches really have little influence. They have to work with what they have got. That does not absolve them of their responsibility to design effective systems of play - which (covid ravaged) medium powers France and Spain seemed to have done and Australia (this time) has not - I have written ad nauseum about this earlier.

The revered US coach Morgan Wootten was fond of saying there was more to be learned from a team's losses than from its wins. The presumes we are humble enough to question ourselves in the first place. IMO the struggles of our U17 girls somewhat reflects the presence of certain traits our regional/club coaches have fostered that get "found out" in contests against the better quality national teams.

These "traits" are not necessarily faults because their presence can prove successful in state and AJC competitions. What do I mean? I will name 3, but there are others:

1. Some players struggle to understand what the purpose of ball movement in offense is about. Many struggle to recognize a good shot look when it arises. When this involves time and space to put up a quality set shot, some believe they do not have the coaches permission to take the shot. It is an "acceptable mistake" to dribble drive into congestion and lose the ball.
Here the cult of the dribble drive and triple threat has much to answer for.

2. A presumption that a speed/size/strength advantage at a State/AJC level will translate at an international level. Early success can work to stunt a players development. Our talented players need to lose more at the domestic level. Losing can build resilience and motivate the learning of new skills that might be needed when playing higher quality teams.

3. A chronic undervaluing of the need for ball security. We are so demanding of our defenders to rebound the ball, to make stops. But, having gone to all that effort to win possession, too many coaches are remarkably cavalier when it comes to sensible use of the ball in offence. To see what I mean, have a look at the first quarter of the Aust-Spain game, which still posted online. By my count Aust had 24 possessions. On every occasion, the ball crossed the half way line. Of these, on 12 occasions we either turned the ball over (mostly) or encountered stops (jump balls, opposition finger tipping the ball over the sideline). We had just 8 quality shot looks and 4 low quality shot looks (such as hero ball dribble drives involving an unfavourable mismatch). This activity produced 14 points for Aust, thanks in part to the refs bailing out hero ball drives by awarding free throws. Bottom line - Aust wasted two-thirds of its possessions.

Reply #895861 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Another horrible performance, but still a win vs Germany 75-72.
Very close to losing the game in the final 30seconds.
Will play for 5-6 placing vs Hungary orJapan.

Reply #895874 | Report this post


Maybe  
Two years ago

A win is a win. well done to all of them!

Reply #895875 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Aus vs Hungary for 5th place tomorrow.

Reply #895885 | Report this post


Juice  
Two years ago

Tabitha Betson should have been played more earlier in the tournament

Reply #895887 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Spain beat France in a thriller
USA beating Canada.


USA vs Spain final
France vs Canada for bronze.


Reply #895888 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

How to play smart pressure offence when you are outsized? Watch the first few minutes of the last quarter of Spain Vs France. Simple but smart.

Link to youtube video here --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35cQGZNOqrE

I draw your attention to 2 plays:
time stamp: 1:29:50 Using the big with possession as a screener (Bogut style)
1:31:48 Pick and Pop with flare cut (to provide separation on expected close out).

In contrast the 2 French bigs in Q4- who are very mobile and strong - are not really used to leverage opportunities for shooters (ie providing shooters time and space)- rather they are assigned static post moves or off rebound coverage. Lacking off the ball movement, the French offense grinds to a halt.
But the Spanish are capable of Aussie style unassisted dribble drives. Watch at
1:36:28 and 1:36:55 with results you expect (missed shot;ref bailout)

Reply #895891 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Spain likely going to make all 3 finals at junior level in europe.

U20 - Gold
U18 - Gold or Silver
U16 - TBD

Got a great program going.

Now that the senior team players are retiring and the long termcoach has gone , we are starting to see them rise again. Don't expect much from them at this years WC or Olympics in 24’ but looking great beyond that.

Reply #895892 | Report this post


hoopie  
Two years ago

I think I read somewhere ages ago that the way the Spanish teach their juniors is very different to ours, across many sports.

Rather than running umpteen drills, giving strong direction and analysing things to death, the Spanish way is more about letting them learn by playing, making mistakes, and using their imagination. They're not told off for trying behind the back passes when they’re 10, or for doing fade-away jumpers or fancy dribbles when they’re re 12, kot.

Does anyone out there have a better idea of the Spanish coaching approach?

Reply #895893 | Report this post


+  
Two years ago

Red84 thanks for that - I watched the French offence a few times after that 1.29.50 spanish basket (which was ran well).

They were unsettled and out of rhythm through pressure D - decision making and shot selection clearly feeling Spain's pressure D - so fumbles, risky passes and at one stage missed a big mismatch with one of their talls on the weakside block and the other took a contested low % shot from the elbow. The Spanish caught up over the next few minutes.

Reply #895894 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

We should be putting Aus junior teams in 5 vs 6 scenarios and focusing more on dribbling and FT/3 pt shooting, increase game tempo, run and gun and get back to dogged in your face relentless pressure on d instead of this 1 hand up, keep ya man in front bs by positiingnyourself 4ft off your opponent. Our creativity is also far behind that of the Japanese and Spain.

I have high hopes for the next sapphires team under the right tutelage.

Reply #895895 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

Spain likely going to make all 3 finals at junior level in europe.

U20 - Gold
U18 - Gold or Silver
U16 - TBD

Got a great program going.

They do, yet their federation still decided to naturalise an American player for EuroBasket who has no link to Spain at all. What a farce.

Reply #895898 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Two years ago

All facets should be taught, keeping your man in front of you can work on some players but not others. Same offensively, not one size fits all, teams and players need to be scouted. I'd say Spain invest a lot more in there junior development that Australia can’t match. France , Serbia also invest in the youth levels more as well.

Reply #895899 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Perthworld.
The womens program...


But yes very odd they added brown, they certainly need another scorer though for a few years.

Reply #895900 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

I think I read somewhere ages ago that the way the Spanish teach their juniors is very different to ours, across many sports.

Does anyone out there have a better idea of the Spanish coaching approach?

This isn't specific to how they train them basketball-wise but from an overall general view Spain run the best youth system in the world for junior athletes participating in team sports.

The way it works is that professional clubs directly operate all junior age group sides themselves which means a child has the opportunity to potentially start playing for a team when of pre-primary school age, advance through the youth ranks to make it as a pro and even possibly retire at said club yet continue with them via a post-playing pathway to coaching available.

The benefit of this structure is that at the top clubs junior coaches are all full-time professionals and required at minimum to be degree or diploma qualified in physical education studies. Many are ex-pros. There is no mad rush to develop skills as the same coach oversees an age group for a number of years, under the same overall philosophy and style of play dictated and overseen by a director of coaching to reinforce the overall identity of the club.

Reply #895901 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

Perthworld.
The womens program...


But yes very odd they added brown, they certainly need another scorer though for a few years.

My bad but I did see on the FIBA website that Spain boys are ranked #2 in the world, even higher than the girls who are #5.

Reply #895902 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Aus ranked 2 in the girls currently but looks like Spain will overtake them with 2 junior medals.
That means Spain becomes #2 in both juniors and seniors.

The next update should drop Aus senior from #3 to #4 and junior women from #2 to #3.
Poor performances from the opals since 2019 will drop us below Spain eventhough Spain failed to qualify for the Olympics. Opals losing 10 games to China and Japan alone, losses to Belgium, France, USA, Serbia also during that time. No big victories in major tournaments has hurt our ranking points significantly.

Reply #895903 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

So Spain will be #2 on all four rankings now.

Reply #895916 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Yes, it looks that way. If they finish high up in the u16 women euro champs...


Australia will be by next years update.

Men #3, possibly #4 if we lose asia cup and France or Slovenia do well in euro
Women #4, down from #3
Boys #8, still the same
Girls #3, down from #2

Reply #895917 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Aus beat Hungary for 5th, probably our best performance overall.
The standout 4 all very good today, Juffermans, Shiels, Clark and Petrie.
Not good that players 10-12 got just 2 mins a game.

Reply #895918 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Final standings girls u17 WC.

USA - Gold
Spain - Silver
France - Bronze
Canada
Australia
Hungary
Germany
Japan
Slovenia
Mali
Egypt
NZ
Belgium
Korea
Argentina
Mexico

Reply #895919 | Report this post


CoachGirl  
Two years ago

re Not good that players 10-12 got just 2 mins a game.

I cant comment on this year, as i am not privy to the conversation, however, i know that in the past players who are selected 10-12 are aware that they are to be ready should they be required, but that there minutes will be very limited. As a coach, its impossible to manage appropriate minutes for 12 players, and in other international tournaments, it is not unheard of for some players to barely see any court time at all. I know this has occurred at Olympic level for Australia.

Handled well, those players understand that they will be part of the team, will train and be ready to play at any moment, but that this depends on the margins and the availability of other players. ie, if players they are backing up are unwell, injured or in foul trouble, they are given more opportunity. There might also be a place for a defensive specialist, who might be given a task, but only in some situations. Often, these conversations are also had with the parents, so they understand what they are signing up for.

Also handled well, an Assistant Coach will be coaching the bench during the game, pointing out areas for improvement, the tactics of the opposition etc. There are thousands of teachable moments at these events and while it seems tough to those watching from home, it is part of the tournament life that not everyone will have the same experience. Learning how to manage disappointment and support your teammates, whatever your role is hard lesson, but such an important one for life inside and outside sport. Our kids call it being a good towel waver.... i didnt see a lot of that this week, which was a shame.

Anyway, thats my perspective on this event. I think top 5 was a good result given the start of the week. They definitely improved and by the last game, looked to be playing as a cohesive group most of the time. Hope to see some of these girls again in the green and gold.

Reply #895967 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

Future imo

Clark 05 u18 22'/u19 23’
Shiels 06 u18 22’/u19 23’ + u17 23’/u18 24’/u19 25’
Juffermans 05 u18 22’/u19 23’


No more junior n.t rep
Harvey 06 - other 06/07 guards will overtake
Gray 05
Laditan 05 - slim chance she makes u18/u19
Bobongie 06 - other 06/07 guards will overtake
Bradley 05
Hanson 05
Petrie 05 - slim chance she makes u18/u19
Betson 05


With a ton of development at COE
Portlock 06 u17 23’/u18 24’/u19 25’
Her size is rare, measured at 202cm, runs well but needs to develop in every area of the game.

Reply #895970 | Report this post


Anon  
Two years ago

Good to see Kurkowski being selected to womens NBA academy games this week in ATL

Reply #895974 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two years ago

Australia will be by next years update.

Were we at any point in time #3 or higher across all four ranking groups?

Reply #895985 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

No

Reply #895987 | Report this post


Red84  
Two years ago

Weedy
For the U19 tournament in 2 years time the key appointment should be (...now, this does not mean it will happen!) the coach and whether she/he is looking to adopt a particular style of play. Then the coach will look around and assess which players are best suited to the roles required by the system.
In the U17 edition just passed, the team offence comprised 2 hubs - one based around the low post, the other hub being beyond the perimeter between the 45s as a starting point for dribble drives. It is not really a system of offence, more of a setup,
Anyhow ball movement was always going to be constrained in such a setup; what was valued here were players who are good at generating their own shots. Given this requirement I wouldn't engage in predictions on the future of particular players. A different (better) system can reveal new qualities of players who were starters/bench among the Sapphires. Some will adapt well; others may be wedded their existing approach, that their development stagnates.

Reply #896018 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Two years ago

The u19 WC is next year (Hc Herbert who got them a silver medal in 2021 hasthe reigns again.)
the following u19 is 2025, but you have u17 oceania 2023, u18 asia 2024.
New coach tbd in mid 2023 as most Aus coaches get 2 cycles.

Reply #896019 | Report this post




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