Phizzer
Last year

2023/24 Metro SDP And FDP Squads Announced - Victoria

https://www.basketballvictoria.com.au/news/202324-metro-sdp-and-fdp-squads-announced

Some great young talent here. With trials almost over and pre-season about to start, be interesting to see if some talent have changed clubs

Dandenong, Nunawading, Casey, Bulleen, Eltham, Frankston and Sandringham all very represented in the boys.

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Andrew J  
Last year

Congratulations to the kids who made it!
For those that didn't, I wouldn’t worry too much as this is basically based on a 3 hour try out.
Good talent is heading to Knox and Dandy.

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Manders  
Last year

Sandy did well - 18 kids into SDP! And 16 into FDP!
Smashed other local associations.
Awesome result.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Where is the vnpp list for 23/24?

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Pinch  
Last year

Yeah I noticed a few names not placed on SDP. Jones from Kilsyth and Ryan from Sandringham are 2 most noticeable from the 16's age group this year.

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Ljubicic, Barbakas etc etc

Reply #928152 | Report this post


Basket81  
Last year

@weedy slug VNPP tryouts are next Saturday and Sunday at Dandenong

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Weedy Slug  
Last year

Apart from those already given the nod.

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Bballfan  
Last year

What's VNPP?

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hoopie  
Last year

Very Naughty Persons Program?

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Basket81  
Last year

Victorian National Pathways Program

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Frogface19  
Last year

Are we surprised Marianela Fakalata is in the SDP and not the NDP squads ?

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Bballfan  
Last year

Yes, surprised Fakalata not in the national group. How many places in the VNPP usually?

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Frogface19  
Last year

Bballfan- not sure. I'd be keen to keen the list

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CC81  
Last year

Interesting to see some of the names listed from clubs based out west and north. Presumably its a lot easier to make the squads if you're going to be in the northern or western hubs. I'm seeing some girls listed from these areas who would be well behind like for like players from the east and south-east who have missed out.

Also, I wonder whether BV deliberately focuses on the biggest clubs here. They are definitely very well represented. It seems like this just perpetuates their relative strength to the detriment of the second tier associations. I know this is a "chicken and egg" argument with players going to the bigger clubs to have a better opportunity to access these programs (amongst other things) but the selection policy dictates which clubs will be most successful on an ongoing basis.

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Phizzer  
Last year

I believe they do look at what grade players played in. So for example, you're a great player in a smaller club, but you're in VJL1, you won't be considered.

You're a bench player in a top VC team, you have a shot.

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XXXX  
Last year

Plenty of good players form big successful clubs not in there, I don't think the size or success of club matters as much as which club has coaches involved in selections and personal relationships.

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DeepWombat  
Last year

It certainly helps to play in a VC team, but they are picking kids outside of VC.

For the U16 Boys the split by grade is:

VC: 58%

VCR: 21%

VJBL1: 11%

VJBL2-5: 10%

A kid playing in a smaller club in a 1's team in VJBL5 made it.

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Andrew J  
Last year

They have hubs, so there are quotas for each hub which makes it uneven.

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hoopjunkie  
Last year

Has the SCC tryout result been announced yet? I can't seem to find it but it normally comes out with the FDP/SDP results.

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Manders  
Last year

There are too many talented players outside this system for it to actually be relevant. The criteria is written in a scientific manner, but its application is not. The selectors do not come from a sports science or sports performance background and make decisions based on limited data and time. If you look at it compared to what happens in football, it is actually very amateurish. In football, they have scouts assessing games on a weekly basis, who then calibrate regularly, and on top of that they actually run combine testing. In basketball, there is a few hour "try-out", which is actually pre-cooked because most of the positions are already taken and kids are told to wear their programme uniforms to make it easy. No value given to weekly performance. Once you are in you are in. Footballers are most welcome - in fact they are exactly the type of basketballer the trained eyes are looking for. It's all amateur hour, and that a reflection from close quarters.

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DeepWombat  
Last year

Like any human-run system, these programs are flawed. You can undoubtedly make cases for every selection process that some deserving kids missed out.

From a top down level, if you are evaluating whether Victoria's SDP and NPP programs are successful, you'd have to start with their 2 primary goals. I think the lesser one is to identify and develop athletes to win future national championships for VIC. By this measure it's hard to argue that SDP is helping, or at least not hindering, VIC's dominance at nationals. They are picking enough of the right kids at SDP tryouts, to then select state teams from, to win year after year.

The greater goal, in my opinion, is to identify and develop future elite athletes for national team selection and professional careers. There have been some questionable selections here in retrospect - was Giddey really only good enough to make Vic Metro as a top age U18s player? Was Bogut really only good enough to make Vic Metro as a top age U18s emergency? You could argue that their special level of talent was not identified early enough. And I wouldn't disagree that there is a bit of "we've picked this kid before let's stick with him" mentality, that may have made it harder for the Giddey's and Bogut's to break into the system in their late teens rather than earlier. Of course I could just be off the mark and Giddey and Bogut just weren't good enough at their earlier ages, and the fact that they got snubbed for state team selections were essential into shaping them into the players they became.

A lot of the noise I observe from the kids, and parents of kids, that just miss out on SDP, is that they are better than some of the kids selected because they score more on Friday nights. I'd imagine the SDP selectors are considering a range of factors, scoring ability is important, but that's just one ability. So many Friday night top scorers barely pass, rebound, defend, etc. And their physical traits are eventually going to limit them in the game - they are just not tall enough, they are just not athletic enough, etc. To be brutally honest, I think most of the kids on the SDP fringe have a Big V ceiling anyway, so missing out on these programs really does not have much of an effect on the basketball world.

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Bballfan  
Last year

Manders - if they don't watch games and scout continually, how do they pre-select before try outs?

Reply #929107 | Report this post


Manders  
Last year

Bballfan - there is significant bias in the system towards certain clubs. Analysis of % of kids coming from certain clubs shows that. Kids are selected for FDP, and then relatively little movement from there. If not selected at FDP it becomes very hard to then get in. So, there is pre-selection. Made worse by the fact that kids wear SDP uniforms to SDP try-outs (which go for a couple of hours only, and decisions made within first hour). Kids with existing SDP uniforms are effectively pre-selected. Other kids battle out, in their club uniform in front of coaches with affiliations. So, yeah, there is pre-selection and the system is not elite, far from it. Very unlike football, where scouts do actually attend games because they want to pick kids who perform in a game (go figure).

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Bluey  
Last year

It's a blessing to not be selected for FDP/SDP in Vic. They torture the kids with early morning sessions and weekend all day things in Bendigo, etc. I've never seen it make anyone better (have been involved in VJBL for well over a decade - VC level).

You only need to be involved in U18's as it's part of the state selection process, imo families should hold off from getting involved for as long as they can. Yes you miss out on SCC & ECC, but are you really missing out? A lot of injuries come out of those 2 tournaments because they're smack bang in the middle of January, which is the only break the Vic kids get.

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DeepWombat  
Last year

You need to be in SDP to be considered for the U16s state team, as well as the U18s.

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Bluey  
Last year

no you don't Deep Wombat. There were a couple of boys in the U16 Vic team last year (metro) who did not do SDP

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DeepWombat  
Last year

I believe those boys (1 active and 2 emergencies I think) were added to SDP late, after the initial intake but before the state combine.

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Manders  
Last year

Strategic placements?

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DeepWombat  
Last year

Who knows? Certainly top VJBL performers who deserved to get added after being initially overlooked

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Manders  
Last year

Good to see some adjustments are made after lists. Wonder if those players came from the same clubs as the coaches?

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Bluey  
Last year

I believe those boys (1 active and 2 emergencies I think) were added to SDP late, after the initial intake but before the state combine.

Correct, because they came in and proved that they were good enough to be considered. Whoever is in contention for the team is at the combine, SDP or not.

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MJ391  
Last year

Is that correct DeepWombat? You seem to be across it. Interested to know the process around them being added / invited.
Agree with your point DeepWombat above re scoring. Not enough weight given to D, and how a kid influences the O and disrupts.

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Footloose  
Last year

Those players who weren't in SDP, they were invited and declined. Many good players decline because they want to still be able to do football, etc.

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Bballfan  
Last year

Has the NPP for 2023/4 been named for Vic yet?

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Manders  
Last year

Is that right Footloose? DeepWombat should be able to confirm.

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DeepWombat  
Last year

I think they were added to SDP for the rest of the season, but I don't know for sure.

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Manders  
Last year

Interesting. DOCs must have been able to squeeze them into the programme. Assume the State coaches had some involvement. Is that right?

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DeepWombat  
Last year

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. I believe the HP coaches give themselves flexibility to add (and remove) kids from the HP programs throughout the year. I am sure input from the DOCs form a part of the decision making.

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MJ391  
Last year

Suspect a lot goes on behind the scenes ... that's the issue!

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Manders  
Last year

Yeah, righto!

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Bluey  
Last year

the reality is the same as it's always been. The best 7 in the age pick themselves, spots 8-10 (now 12 apparently) could be any of at least 20 kids depending on the coach/selectors preference/style.

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XXXX  
Last year

I think you drastically overate the competence of the HP staff if you think they can pick the best 7 players!

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DeepWombat  
Last year

It will be interesting to see what they do with the 11th and 12th players. You'd assume they would be bottom agers, to give them a taste of nationals for the following year. Great experience for them in terms of training with a state team, playing in the practice games and maybe getting some spot minutes in a pool game.

A big commitment from the parents of those players though, paying $4-5K+ (factoring in the player's costs and their own, depending on how many family members come) to watch their kids cheer lead at the nationals.

Reply #930410 | Report this post


MJ391  
Last year

DeepWombat, just for arguments sake, if you were the coach, would you like to take 12 and if you had to how would you handle the extra two in terms of minutes / involvement?

Also, do you know if coaches have a say over who gets in the team, including in those last few positions? Call it a Captains Call or whatever? The process this year may tend to suggest that was the case based on those co-opted in, but interested in your thoughts / understanding of the process because it's a little opaque.

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DeepWombat  
Last year

If I was in the coaching system and I could pick a team of 12 instead of 10, I'd pick 2 less emergencies at least (3 instead of 5). That way I could spread minutes to the 8th-12th players and 3 emergencies in some of the practice games at least.

For the nationals, I'd play the 11th and 12th players where possible in the pool games. Possibly only if the team is up to a sizable lead. It's a balance between giving them some playing time and getting the top of the rotation ready for the finals.

For the finals the rotation would have to shorten and I'd communicate to them that their role from then on was mainly cheerleading.

I know the coaches involved in the state team selections all have a say (actual assistants and those lending a hand but not officially part of the team). I believe the head coach makes the final calls, to be signed off by the GM of High Performance.

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LC  
Last year

When coaches are lining up players based on height order at FDP tryouts...

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MJ391  
Last year

Yes! Perhaps they should line-up the parents instead, at that age. At least that would have some more science to it.

BV principles include "potential anthropemetrics", which seems to be done by testing by the eye and a line-up.

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Manders  
Last month

Will SDP be reset based on actual performances in VJBL? I am told there is a form of investigation into the process, but leaving that aside just wanted to know if there is any intention to make changes at this stage?

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SlowMoMitch  
Last month

I don't think there will be a reset. Those who are already in the program will always be favorable. Otherwise the program is not successful in developing their players if they don't select a big batch of returnees.

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DeepWombat  
Last month

There are non-SDP state team trials held every year for the U16s and U18s. These are only for kids who aren't currently in SDP or NPP. Over each of the last 2 years a kid has been added to SDP after this trial and has then gone on to make the U16 Vic Metro boys team.

I believe VJBL performance is one factor they use to determine who to invite to those trials, however first the association DOCs have to nominate their players to attend. BV then picks from that list.

For the older boys, a number of the current NBA Academy/CoE kids were "late bloomers" and were not the ones dominating in U12s-U16s. There always needs to be pipelines for identifying late blooming talent.

I've seen more upset from players and parents who have been in the "system" (FDP then SDP) for many years but are not making the state teams, than the ones who feel they have been overlooked by not making SDP at all. I feel like U16 SDP is a pretty wide net, not sure if there are really that many worthy players left out. You also need to consider that some players choose not to try out or decline SDP offers.

It gets a bit trickier in U18s as they choose less players in that age group and if boys are having a late growth spurt that is when it happens.

BV are pretty upfront about the state teams, they are not necessarily picking all of the top Friday night VJBL scorers. They need a balanced team of scorers, defenders, rebounders, passers, team-first players, etc.

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Bluey  
Last month

All good points SloMo & Wombat. Further to that, I found out this year that if you make it through the non SDP tryouts to the actual State tryouts, you have to then sign up for SDP or you are not eligible for final team selection. Thought that was interesting.

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hoopie  
Last month

If that's true, then that’s one way those in charge could make sure their claims about the value of the SDP are accurate. ("All State players were part of the SDP program" is a good way to keep the money flowing in.)

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