frustrated
Years ago

getting a zone defence ruling enforced

In a close game up to that point we saw a team introduce a zone defence in an u14s game on the weekend - completely shut a motion offence game down and the zoning team won easily.

Everyone present clearly saw it was a zone with 5 players running back, packing the paint in a 2-1-2 formation and not moving out of the keyway or matching up - whilst the offence were all out on the 3 point line.

how does this "no zone" bylaw get enforced ? why do we want a 'no zone" policy , when we get it breached with no consequences ?

Topic #37095 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

First thing is that the coach should have called a time out, employed his zone offence and the result would have taken care of itself.

Reply #528659 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If it is a break of the rules it should be unforced. Just like a violation or foul.

Reply #528660 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Who was the opposition?

Reply #528661 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

what could it possibly matter who the opposition was. Totally irrelevant.
Also, what Under 14 coach teaches a zone offense. ZONE IS ILLEGAL IN UNDER 14's so you have no reason to teach a zone offence.
Simply put the process is for the team manager to approach the court supervisor and let them know the problem.
The trouble with that is it seems to take forever to actually do something about it.
A court supervisor actually assessed a tech on the bench in a game at Pasadena yesterday.

The court supervisor does however need to be certain that the defence is zoning and if they haven't played or coached the game, this will take time.

Reply #528666 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

Just a reply to the less that insightful first reply

- you obviously have not coached in the lower age groups -even in u14's when zones were allowed, its difficult to teach 10,11 and 12 year olds an effective zone offense, even when they got to "practice" against them in the games most weeks.

To train your team to execute an offense against an illegal defense is not exactly a great use of their or your often limited practice time.

All you can do is send cutters through the zone and hope that the officials will see that there is no "switching " and that they will call a time out and instruct the offending coach to play a legal defense.

That said, a full "bob knight" defense that can absolutely ignore defending a 3 point line - can be indistinguishable from a zone, both in look and effect.

But I doubt than any local u14 coaches ever attended any of knight clinics here in Oz, much less any in the US.

Reply #528667 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

zones are illegal in u12s and u14s.To get the rule enforced, the coach needs to inform the court supervisor.

Whilst the rule may have merits in theory, in practice all teams fall back and play a "zone". The rule is a waste of time unless the court supervisors enforce it themselves, rather than wait for a coach to complain.

Easiest way to show it is a zone is to get a player to cut from 1 wing to the other wing and see if the defensive player goes with the cutter.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Great place to post this complaint. Will have a significant impact overall.

Reply #528670 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@Very Old you are kidding are you not? The first reply is spot on. Call a time out and if you want to mention what you see to the refs then do it and get back to the game. If you are unable to teach under 14's a few simple ways to beat a zone you should give it up mate.

You are one of those old coaches that just gives up aren't you? Great example for your team I expect, not!

Bugger the rule, zone busters and trying to stop zone defences is a joke, it does not work. Better to teach them and win or lose they will be the kids that learn and improve not the zombie zone statues.

Reply #528671 | Report this post


Cherry Picker  
Years ago

Why not bring in a defensive 3 second call. Hopefully will keep the key clear for motion cuts. Get 1 warning then it's a foul shot plus possession.
Otherwise it's way too easy to disguise a zone defense as man.

Reply #528676 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

@528671, your understanding of best use of resources is terrible. If a team just wants to sit in a zone all game, sure, you have plenty of time to talk about how to beat it. But if it's thrown in late and you have to burn a time out to talk to your 12-year-olds about how to play it, that's a time out you can't use to advance the ball further down the line, or draw up a play. Why attack the people who are trying to play by the rules?

Reply #528680 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I coach under 14s in Tassie - this has been an issue this week here. The refs all went to the coaches before the games today saying that zones were played in the games yesterday and they will give shots if it happens. I totally agree that zones should not be in play until the older ages - kids need to learn how to play d properly which is what man to man teaches

Reply #528681 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It's such a difficult situation getting this dealt with properly during a game. I've been called on as a coach several times by ref's supervisors to offer my opinion on whether a zone is being played or not and the fact is that most refs/ref supervisors/court supervisors and a good percentage of coaches have no idea what a zone is. Very rarely have I seen this dealt with reasonably in a game situation.

Sorry, I know that doesn't help but it's really one for the too hard basket

Reply #528690 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

i encounter teams playing zones in u12 and u14 all the time. Where it gets annoying is because zones should not be played, you only teach side line and base line plays to be used against a man to man D.

You then get players camped in the key who are clearly not playing a zone. If you want to complain, you must locate the court supervisor and then get them to your court. All too time consuming, and also the coach is there to coach, not chase court supervisors. If they want to have this rule THEY , court supervisors, who are employed by the governing body to enforce rules/regulations, should do their job and enforce this rule.

Reply #528694 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

To give an insight onto some of the "solutions" to this problem I see. In one of the games recently I was asked to give an opinion, one of the teams in U14 boys had a kid who was at least 6'5 but was a complete gumby. Nailed to the floor. His coach had obviously told him to stand in front of the rim and block the crap out of anyone driving to the basket. The opposition coach (from my own club) came up with the brilliant solution to have his 5 man stand in the corner near half way then whine to the referees "They're not guarding him. They're playing a zone"
When asked to offer my opinion I just had to shake my head and walk away (And have a lot of stern words to the coach after the game)

Reply #528697 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

anon #680 you have no idea about resources.

What are you actually on about. The post you are critical of doesn't suggest for one moment that you need to draw up a play during a time out to beat a zone. It suggests you should have a zone option to go to and if you don't then you are not a very good coach.

Even at under 14 level players should know a simple zone offence, this is not hard to teach, but the point everyone seems to agree on is that policing such a rule is not effective therefore just get on with it and play the game.

Reply #528699 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

to 697 above, the court supervisor should tell the big guy to play D. Coaches should only be there to coach, not enforce the rules!!

Reply #528701 | Report this post


Baller6  
Years ago

I agree it would be annoying and I have been in the other camp as I teach a pack line style of D that can sometimes look like a zone if we decide to switch on screens, and I spend half the game trying to ignore the opposite coach screaming we are in a zone because we are not playing D out past the 3 point line (defend all threats, a player 2 meters past the 3 point arc is not a threat in this style of Defence)

But in saying that what the hell is the other coach thinking, the reason we should teach and play man is so that kids grow up with the skills to make it to the next level, zone has its place but not in u14s etc....

Reply #528702 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

To #701...the big guy was playing loads of D. Helping everyone! Does he have to guard his man who's standing near halfway? Hell no

Reply #528707 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

to 707 depends where the ball is. if the big guy heads down the court and gets under the basket when the ball is at half way, and no O players near him, is he playing man D, as the rules require??

Reply #528712 | Report this post


razor  
Years ago

Read zone buster manual - available online. Defence can do what it likes until ball at 1/4 court.

Reply #528718 | Report this post


frustrated  
Years ago

3 or 5 second defence violation rule sounds good

Reply #528722 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Teaching kids how to play against any defence sounds better.

Reply #528725 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

to 725 that is a good theory, but the stats (google zone buster) indicate that players subjected to a "no Zone" environment develop into better players.

Reply #528726 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

That zone buster manual is valuable but there are plenty of grey areas in it as well which I guess adds to the confusion. For example, it says one way to show a zone is send a cutter from weakside to strong side and it uses the example of a 5 man protecting the rim and his opponent cuts to the strong side corner and says the player under the rim "must" leave the key. I don't agree with that at all. The simple act of cutting to that spot doesn't mean the defender has to leave the key. If the guy catches and is a threat then yes for sure he must be guarded, but otherwise I feel the defender is entitled to stay in a sagging help position inside the paint.

Anyway, glad I don't coach that age group :) My team plays full court man for 40 minutes and I love when the opposition goes to a zone. Generally means they can't guard us

Reply #528750 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Your last comment anon^ is spot on and is the reason why I think the issue of zone at under 14's is more about the attitude and ability of a coach than the players or the team having a winning record.

If you guys coaching under 14's have the ability to teach (which is really important) then you need to get a grip and stop whining about things when they don't go your way. Remember the kids are learning from you!

Teach your kids this - 'When faced with difficulty or adversity don't look for excuses or someone else to blame, don't just complain and look for an easy option, face the challenge head on and do your best, let the results take care of themselves and learn'.

Reply #528751 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

"the issue of zone at under 14's is more about the attitude and ability of a coach than the players"

correct , it is the coaches who wish to win rather than develop players who resort to a zone, or to a collapsing man-to-man that is so much "help" that it is mob defensive pressure rather than individual pressure.

If the rule said - once an offensive player/team is in the 1/4 court, all defensive players must be close enough ( or actively closing on an offensive player) for that defensive player to take one step and reach out to touch an offensive player, then the zone question would be fairly easy to police. ( double teaming is obviously possible under this)

the penalties would be

on observing this an official will stop lay and

1) first instance send teams to a time out, and instruct/warn the offending team that all player must -( as above) or they will be immediately be subbed out by the official. This avoids the claim of "don't know the rules"

2) second to fourth instance are forced substitutions. ( the players don't want to be subbed out so eventually they will not follow the "win" coaches instruction

3) fifth team violation is the removal of the coach for the balance of the game. ( this covers the case of where the coach does have an iron control of their team.

It would be a very steep learning curve - but I've seen it work in a social internal club junior competition that I used to manage - so its not a hypothetical.

That junior club pretty much set the defensive standard in all grades of the juniors in their area for several years, and basically ran their on court defence according to the same rules.

Reply #528756 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

This also fosters the modern "dribble penetration and kick" offensive strategies and allows it to be introduced at a young level.

It also allows for the more old school "give and go" and the "pass and screen away" offensive structures.

It allows for switching ( reactive help) onto an offensive player who has gone past their immediate defender

And also for anticipative help defenses - where each player follows a team philosophy of where their "sag" is to be directed toward -eg the ring, the split line, the current ball holder, or towards the 6'+ player who is simply cutting from one block to the other.

Reply #528760 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You can't put the responsibility for enforcing the zone rules back onto the officials, they have enough to concentrate on as it is given their areas of responsibility.

We don't want them "watching" the game and trying to assess defensive tactics, (which is outside of their training anyway) instead of actually officiating the game. They can't do both effectively at the same time.

Reply #528762 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

Hmm - as an official myself - I'm not following the above post, here on OZ, under the BA rules , we are already required to enforce the existing zone rules in u/14 competitions, i'm just suggesting a change to the rules, not adding a new responsibility .

JMHO ;)

Reply #528764 | Report this post


Very Old  
Years ago

I'm not try to start a flame war with an anon poster - but the FIBA rules have for many decades required officials to judge if non-condoned player-to-player physical contact gave rise to an "illegal" advantage - and if it does not ( unless its a technical infraction) its not to be called a foul. So some assessing of defensive tactics and its effects are already required.

Reply #528765 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Look at the bright side, your team will be much better developed than this team of zoners coached by someone who is only in it for his win-totals!

Reply #528770 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Very Old, that's a very different requirement to looking at a broad view of the game trying to pick a zone from a switching man.

Some offenses are so packed in they give the defense no option but to "zone" anyway.

You're asking officials to gain a skill outside of the requirements of an official and base an assessment on opinion.

I would not like to see the officials have to police this.

Reply #528783 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

should be enforced by court supervisor, not the refs/umps or coaches!!!!

Reply #528808 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No one is asking officials to gain a skillset, just one who has it as part of their job spec (Court Supervisor) to actually do it.

Reply #528810 | Report this post


'  
Years ago

should be a 3-5 second key way defensive violation if not guarding anyone - that will get them moving !

Reply #528811 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

court supervisors only have to do something if asked by opposition coach. no question asked no action taken, remembering CS have a multitude of jobs to do over the last state champ ie escorting ejected coaches and parent/spectators from stadium. Wiping up blood. Answering coaches queries, dealing with wayward clocks, ensuring shot clocks are on the courts required, they are not there wholly and solely as zone busters but if asked by the opposing coach to have a look at a zone question they will. But they are not there to zone bust and can't just spend the entire time watching one game for a zone. If you want them to watch just ask them. If you want a zone buster get BSA to employ one for each stadium.

Reply #528819 | Report this post


coach  
Years ago

the money they all charge to play, they should have 2 court supervisors at each stadium.

819 above, we all know under the current system, the coach must complain to the CS. We are saying it should be the CS job to enforce the rule, ,NOT the coach.

What other playing rules is a coach asked to enforce?

Reply #528857 | Report this post


Chewie  
Years ago

Agree with coach on this one.

Pisses me off how many times I saw this on the weekend. If I'm at a 3 or 4 court venue, trying to find the CS and burn a timeout is a joke.

While the div 1 girls are generally bigger/stronger/higher skilled and able to make ranges jumpers and throw cut out passes, many first year girls at U14 simply can't.

Trying to break a zone, or simply a centre protecting the rim can be challenging.

I hear the "we'll teach them some zone buster offences and stop whinging" comments and I get that argument. For me though, I'm spending my 3.5hrs a week with them working on skills they still don't have, such as off hand work, dribbling and passing skills, decision making, understanding written plays for slobs and blobs written on a whiteboard, and trying to rectify poor shooting technique. Trying to sneak time in for guard defence, post defence, understanding traps, and then the flip side of press breakers, post offense, the importance of speed and directional changes, motion offense, screens, ball reversals....this is a better grounding for the players to move forward next season.

In saying all this, I still spent 15 mins of a training running through 2 zone offences that we can run. Going to need to invest another hour or so on this over the next 2 weeks, but they may get some thing from it, and it might stop me going bobby knight with a chair the next time it happens.

Reply #529054 | Report this post


razor  
Years ago

I know I'm buying an argument but it happens a lot less than you think. I've seen coaches calling for a zone before the ball's over half court. It's. not And if the offence doesn't pass to the other side or have cutters, it's not. Most, if not all coaches train for man to man. Bear in mind this doesn't prevent double teaming or help. Virtually all the situations I've seen where there may be a case are caused by inexperienced or lazy players not following instructions and the first action of advising the coaches sees it resolved.

Reply #529069 | Report this post


Rules Enforcer  
Years ago

I'm sorry but are Coaches allowed to blow the whistle for the Refs and make those calls? NO neither is the Court Supervisor, Complaint should be made to Ref to monitor what appears zone and Refs should enforce the rule..

Reply #529070 | Report this post


'  
Years ago

don't think half the refs know themselves - particularly in lower age grades and divisions - go ask a 11-14 yo reffing what a zone is.... and it is not their fault, just beyond their capability / have not reached that level of understanding yet.

So the coaches slip a zone in and hey presto, they get the win, parents & kids are happy - regardless of rule breach.

so I am big supporter of 3-5 second defensive keyway violations.

Reply #529073 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Rules Enforcer - the rule is for the court supervisor to enforce, NOT the ref!

Reply #529078 | Report this post


^ pretty sure that was covered off earlier, as was the fact that the CS A. Probably not a ref, player or coach and hasn't been educated to monitor and identify the rule. B. Isn't confident enough to interrupt a game to adjudicate.

Agree that in game rules should be the referee responsibility.

Valuable input though Muppet.

Reply #529081 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Much more often than not at U12/14 level teams don't execute their offense with good spacing and timing and the defense is disorganized and lazy, this can often look like a zone but its not.

Good luck to anyone trying to work that mess out.

The CS's have multiple courts and functions to look after, equally the officials have their hands full doing their job properly.

You'd need a properly trained person to be able to accurately determine the defense, not the CS or Refs.

Reply #529137 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I have found this issue of 'zones in junior basketball' tends to work itself out to a point, but of course it is an ugly way to teach the younger age groups how to play 'D' because they often don't tend to get it right and at the lower levels the 'O' usually isn't able to cope.

Scoring becomes difficult for those teams that are unable to break down a zone 'D' and lets face it we are talking about the younger age groups here, not generally u/16's or u/18's and above.

So the end result is that people complain because their teams lose and the winners go on to learn nothing and even those kids just end up floundering in domestic competitions because their footwork is often lacking correct technique as they may not have been taught how to play man-man man-ball 'D' properly.

Much of the rhetoric is pushed towards a sloution based on the symptoms and not the cause, yet it is the clubs and Associations that need to take on more responsibility here, to improve understanding and develop the concepts of our game.

I often observe kids playing basketball without a clue as to what they are doing on court, they may have developed seriously bad habits over time and will never be anything but domestic players.

This however is fine in many cases, because lets face it the majority of kids out there will only play basketball for fun and fitness, so what are the issues we really need to consider here, is it to police a zone rule that is frustrating and almost impossible to monitor or control?

Or is it to step back and look at the sport and how best to continue to have kids play it and enjoy it, knowing that only a very small percentage will go on to play in a higher level of competitions or even less still go on to play semi-pro or pro ball?

If we are seriously considering getting some form of zone rule enforced, it must be done from BA down to the Associations and clubs/schools, it must be more of a culture shift to understand how the game is played and what the kids will get out of it than just to play for a meaningless win that results in people being upset at each other IMHO...

Reply #529139 | Report this post


'  
Years ago

defensive 5 second call will eliminate everything sus

Reply #529716 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

Well said, Bear.

Reply #529728 | Report this post


Learn Em Better  
Years ago

To be honest, I coach multiple levels, and ZONE especially the 2-3 is ever so common at all divisions and ages, junior - YL, Seniors even Premier League here in SA.

I think you should really teach, as a coach, a zone offence or multple zone options early to equipt players better.

Most teams that start Man switch to zone when they start losing on Man, change the offence quickly and stay ahead of the game.

Reply #529778 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

Learn em better, I sincerely hope you're coaching YL-Seniors and not U10-U14s.

Reply #529783 | Report this post


Todd  
Years ago

Sometimes coaches and parents don't understand man to man concepts.

Most man defenses teach players to get to the middle (split line) when your player is on the weakside/helpside.

If the offense does not have a lot of player or ball movement, a man to man defence can look like a zone defense.





Reply #531074 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

Very true, Todd. Many coaches also fail to make the distinction in real-time. This is why the youth 'zone-buster' procedure requires ball and player movement.

"A good man-to-man looks like a zone, and a good zone looks like a man."

Reply #531085 | Report this post


Press up  
Years ago

A lot of u10 stuff I see is full court man and trap kids on weaker teams don't even see the front court against zone

Reply #531092 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

BA have produced a pretty good video on what will and will not be called a zone - and it shows video examples with a voice over explanation. They have been posted to coaches the last few years of teams qualifying for 14 Nats.
Perhaps BSA could get a copy and distribute it to the relevant age groups...

Reply #531115 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It that is true anon^ and this zone busting crap was such a big problem wouldn't that video be pushed out to every Association under the banner of BA?

Reply #531130 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It is true anon - I got one in the post from BA. I was expecting it to be awful - but it was actually pretty precise and made it perfectly clearcut what was and was not considered a zone. And to be fair had the principles right - I expect they asked one of the high profile coaches to help out (like a nats coach or something).

Why would BA push it out - not every state bans zones. It would be up to the relevant state body to cover comps in their states that do have zone restrictions. BA are in charge of national competitions - hence them sorting it out for their 14 Nats.

Reply #531135 | Report this post


dr seuss  
Years ago

defensive 5 second call will sort it right out

Reply #531144 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Refs can't count to 3 for the offence. Why would you be so confident they'd get it right for the D?

Reply #531151 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Given the way U12's and 14's play O and D If coaches can't agree on what's a definite zone and what isn't how on Fekn hell can we expect the refs who are supposed to be watching individual isolated parts of the game to get it correct??!!

Reply #531163 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

It is a simplistic solution @dr seuss, however I can't really think of how that couldn't work!

It would be very interesting to trial a 5 second defense in the key rule...

Reply #531167 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

... except that that is not a rule of basketball!

Reply #531193 | Report this post




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