Anonymous
Earlier this year

Is it Time for the Hawks to fold?

They have been an embarrassment for years, but this season plumbed new depths of pathetic.
And more to the point, it seems nobody gives a fuck, so why should we?

Their management is both hopeless and delusional, the coach is a moron, their squad looks like it was a assembled by a blind man on crack.
Whatever publicity was generated by Lamelo has been completely squandered.

I'm all for propping up the weaker teams, in order to sustain a health league, but there must be a foundation on which to build, and that has disappeared.
Their own fans can't be assed turning up, so why should the rest of the league bother?

Topic #46733 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

no you need small city teams, just need new owner

Reply #786907 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

If they didn't show up when Lamelo was there the arena is going to be a ghost town now.

Bendigo Hawks has a good ring to it.

Reply #786910 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Bendigo hahaha

Reply #786912 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Tassie Hawks!

Reply #786914 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Either need a 10 or 12 team league, if the Hawks fold we can probably say bye to the 12 team league.

There's probably room for a second NZ team, I don't think there's room for any additional Australian teams after Tasmania. A third Victorian team? 2 is enough for the medium term. Sydney? Known for not being a sports state. Qld? Bris/Cairns is enough. WA/SA forget it. Canberra? Can't see that working.


Reply #786917 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Tasmania is getting a team and Bendigo hahaha that's a joke I hope. Nsw is happy with the kings and the hawks, if you would like to support a Victorian team you already have two to choose from.

Reply #786918 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Bendigo. Brand new 4000 capacity stadium. 10 courts. Largest complex in the state. Largest grass roots competition in the state. SEABL/NBL1 strong team with strong history. WNBL team. Solid sponsors e.g. Bendigo Bank.

The city- growth corridor. Representative for regional Victoria. Exponential population growth.

Bendigo Hawks.

Reply #786920 | Report this post


Baller#3  
Earlier this year

May be a stupid question but why does Canberra always get overlooked as a spot for a new team? Obviously has the population base.

Should they move the hawks up the road permanently to Canberra?

I think with 2 NZ teams, Australia should on paper have the capacity to field 10 teams to make a 12 team league. The league should then have a strict rule of not expanding past that point as it's unsustainable.

Reply #786922 | Report this post


Yinka Dare  
Earlier this year

It's the largest grass roots completion but not when you take things into perspective. If you take the size of Bendigo and put it in Melbourne you have 5 associations that would be located in that area. I mean look at Knox, Kilsyth, Ringwood. Not even the size of Bendigo but combined are much larger.

Big difference sponsoring an nbl1 team than it is an nbl team. Seabl player wages would be close to 100k, while nbl is at least 1 million.

There is more population growth in the Cranbourne/pakenham area of Melbourne. Should they get a team?

Reply #786923 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

does Cranbourne/pakenham have:

Bendigo. Brand new 4000 capacity stadium. 10 courts. Largest complex in the state. Largest grass roots competition in the state. SEABL/NBL1 strong team with strong history. WNBL team. Solid sponsors e.g. Bendigo Bank.

Reply #786925 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Clubs go through good & bad times (Sydney went through this same stage 3/4 years ago), there is a few rumours going on with new ownership of the club & if it happens it can only get better.
Don't see a problem with their Australian players & the club has a vision with the younger players for the future. The more the younger players play now will make them better for the future & if the club can keep them they will have a good Australian core group.
Imports have been the issue & if the Hawks had better quality they would be so much better off
Lamelo has been good for the league but he was never going to make them championship contenders with no quality imports around him.
The crowds haven’t been that bad considering the draw that was handed to the Hawks & are now starting to appreciate the younger brigade playing more minutes.

Reply #786926 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Yeah, imagine local fans not wanting to turn up to watch a guy who wasn't ready to help his team win and was always going to be gone by the time he was. Strange.

Reply #786927 | Report this post


B-ball  
Earlier this year

1. Adelaide
2. Brisbane
3. Cairns
4. Illawarra
5. Melbourne
6. New Zealand
7. Perth
8. South East Melbourne
9. Sydney

10. Tassie are next

11. Canberra (a must)
12. 2nd NZ team

Take the Blitz to Canberra to help gauge interest. If they enter the league, they should be the Cannons, nothing else. Their 3 titles would still count too.

League could definitely be sustainable with more than 12 teams, but it needs to be a slow growth. 1 team every 2-3 years.

If the right buyers can be found and finance the team appropriately, add 4 teams from:

1. Townsville (absolutely tragic they folded, the Reptile Rumbles were awesome and the QLD region of the NBL is bare with just Brisbane and Cairns)
2. Gold Coast (if the Brendan Joyce situation didn't happen, they might still be around)
3. Newcastle (maybe, Victorian teams have had 100 chances, why not Newcastle?)

Or 2 more NZ teams

16 teams....then stop!

And don't talk to me about diluting the talent pool. More teams means more spots for locals and imports. More locals will have the motivation to get to the NBL and more imports will be tempted to move here.

Come at me!

Reply #786929 | Report this post


Isaac  
Earlier this year

For OP, LaMelo's early exit the final dagger!

Reply #786930 | Report this post


paul  
Earlier this year

"There is more population growth in the Cranbourne/pakenham area of Melbourne. Should they get a team?"

Are you asking if South East Melbourne should have a team?

Reply #786935 | Report this post


Baller#3  
Earlier this year

B-Ball, 16 teams is way too many. I think once you start getting above 12 you are really stretching it. I understand it is a bit of a boom for the NBL at the moment, but you have always got to be planning for the lower periods of interest too.

If the NBL can sustain 12 teams without losing any/moving any for say 5 years, AND there is a market knocking the door down for a license, then maybe it becomes a consideration.

Reply #786936 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year


Id be ok with the Hawks folding/relocating. They've terrible management wise, especially evident after Brooks got injured.

Reply #786937 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Hawks were in the GF a few seasons back, don't recall that being a bad thing.

Reply #786938 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Was the Hawks GF appearance uber the same ownership?

Reply #786941 | Report this post


Haz  
Earlier this year

As mentioned above, relocating the Hawks to Camberra is something that I can see happening. They are already testing the waters there by playing a couple of games and its been quite succesful.

They would probably need to change their name to Cannons for the history, retain the 3 championships won, honor the Hawks title, create a history that combines both clubs, and maybe play a couple of games in Wollongong for goodwill. Not that the folks in Wollongong really care that much anyway.

Hopefully a new owner can steer this club in the right direction whether they stay or relocate.

Reply #786945 | Report this post


PyroCross  
Earlier this year

I just wish everyone's appetite for a second NZ team would match Larry Kesselman's, who doesn't see the appeal of a city of 500k population holding a team. Wellington's been waiting for one for over a decade now.

Reply #786946 | Report this post


Aussie Kids  
Earlier this year

If we want to see young Aussies in the NBL we need more, not less, teams.

It's been good to see some younger Aussies playing for the Hawks.

Reply #786947 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

No its not time. Hope this helps.

Reply #786948 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I would love to have a 10th team and Wellington seems a great choice to me. Or would Christchurch be better? I don't know NZ well but having some kind of rivalry within NZ would be beneficial to both teams and would make sense for aussie teams doing road doubles too.

Reply #786950 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Also I don't want the Hawks to die in order to have a 2nd NZ team

Reply #786951 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

B-ball the first person to talk some sense on here, exactly right and nbl1 can fill in the gaps.

Reply #786953 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I think it's quite clear that the NBL is trying building itself into a mini-NBA. They're trying to make themselves appealing in the international market and to international owners/investors.

In an ideal world all NBL team owners would be like LK. Independently wealthy. Happy to invest money into their team as their toy/play-thing, unconcerned about losses that are minor in comparison with their general wealth/investments.

If they can find owners who simply want a professional sports team as a status symbol, then expansion into markets like Canberra, back into Townsville, a second Sydney team, could be viable.


Reply #786954 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Canberra is already being looked at as team 11.

Walsh I'm not sure has sole rights to all of nz, but Wellington should be team 11-12. The Breakers becoming Auckland.

Reply #786956 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

How much cash did the OP lose on betting Illawarra would win a certain number of games this year?

Reply #786957 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

FWIW, I think the NBL should tread very slowly.

9 teams is enough for another year or two.

10 should be the max, and let's take another year or two to make the right decision on where number 10 should be.

Reply #786959 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

There's got to be some sort of plan in respect of the Hawks. Spending is only going to increase, expenses are only going to increase.

When we talk about "critical" locations to have a team, we're talking the major capitals. If you don't have a team in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide, you're not a legitimate league (One of many reasons people took the piss out of the NBL, the years without Sydney or Brissy).

10-12 teams is ideal, 8 lacks variety. 9,11 is acceptable for a few years but the lack of even numbers pains humanity.

I suspect there's going to be a bit of a rule of thumb: Over the next 1-2 years teams should achieve 7k average; 3-4 years 9-10k average. If you're getting 5-6k average in a few years you've got work to do, if you're getting 3-5k average you're in trouble.

Only exception I can imagine to this is Cairns with how well they are run which excuses the limitation of infrastructure. Hopefully in a few years some money will open up to expand it to 7k capacity.

To that extent, what are our expectations for 3-4 years time?

Adelaide: Average 9-10k
Sydney: Average 12-13k
SEM: Average 7k (given a few years to establish base)
NZ: Average 8-10k
Wellington: Average 3-4k initially, a few years later 5-6k
Tasmania: 4-5k intially, 6-7k after a few years
Perth: They're fine
Melbourne: They're fine - average 9-10k?
Brisbane: 5.5-7k
Cairns: Hope for CCC expansion to 7k? Average 5.5-6k?
Illawarra/Canberra: 5-6k if they are to survive

Reply #786961 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

LV: I think we are all expecting Tassie is numero 10 mate.

Reply #786962 | Report this post


Yinka Dare  
Earlier this year

I'd put Tasmania next if government is commuters long term
Possible second nz team

Maybe Geelong. Basketball would no longer conflict with afl and could see big crowds

Reply #786963 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Essentially in 3-4 years, we'd be hoping for major capital city teams to average around the 10k mark (Perth, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane [Bullets won't get there]), second team to a major market (SEM) around that 7k mark and regional teams around the 5-6k mark (cairns/illawarra/canberra/hobart [perhaps tassie expectations a bit higher]).

Reply #786965 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Geelong are good at supporting their team - so many pay for Cats memberships, would they have money for an NBL membership?

Regional teams are an issue in respect of crowd numbers, sponsorship and infrastructure generally. There just isn't the money there. Even Cairns have had a fair bit of local government assistance.

Reply #786967 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Geelong is one of the few places where an AFL/NBL partnership could really work. I would suggest if there was any inclination towards putting a team in Geelong they would need to involve the Cats (and build a new stadium).

Reply #786973 | Report this post


Baller#3  
Earlier this year

Regional teams are sustainable with the 4-5k average crowds, only if there is a legitimate luxury tax system. My major concern with the current NBL is the difference in talent between the top and bottom. Very few fans are going to want to support a regional team which cannot compete at all (hawks). Not necessarily for titles, but you would want to be winning the majority of home games and making playoffs fairly often. This gives the illusion that the team has a shot.

Reply #786975 | Report this post


ME  
Earlier this year

I don't think the Hawks should fold but I've said to Hawks fans for years, if you want a team, YOU HAVE TO TURN UP.

In answer to that I hear a lot of excuses. It's like they want to just watch their team online for free and feel like they have a team to follow that way. Well, there might come a day when that option isn't open to them and they'll blame everyone else.

Reply #786977 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

While basketball has a big junior sport in the Illawarra, most parents watch rugby league during the winter over basketball in the summer. It's about balancing their budgets and so many outside activities out side in summer cost zilch.

Reply #786979 | Report this post


Go Dees  
Earlier this year

Time to close the doors!

Reply #786983 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Would be great to have a team in Geelong. Whilst I wouldn't normally praise the A-League, the idea of Western United being a club of Melbourne's West+Geelong was sensible and helped increase build their support base/catchment area.

No doubt a Geelong based club could position themselves that way, and take supporters from Melbournes West, which is a huge growth area and has a big basketball base.

The challenge for Geelong is that they don't have a suitable venue. The Arena is their largest venue. And whilst it's a cool court and excellent for NBL1, it's only got a capacity of 2,000. Would need a major investment to either expand that venue to at least 6,000 or to build a new arena.

Reply #786986 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

AFAIK Geelong basketball has said they will never have another NBL team. Currently true? You would have to ask them.

Reply #786988 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

If Geelong come back, they can have the prodigal son Joey wright back. Please, take him.

Reply #786990 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Well, that's the Geelong Basketball Association/Geelong United. Nothing to say the league wouldn't want a team out there, with an owner who has nothing to go with Geelong Basketball.

Reply #786991 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

"AFAIK Geelong basketball has said they will never have another NBL team. Currently true? You would have to ask them."

"Well, that's the Geelong Basketball Association/Geelong United. Nothing to say the league wouldn't want a team out there, with an owner who has nothing to go with Geelong Basketball."

That's exactly right. If another group/person decided they wanted to have a team in Geelong, and had a partnership with the AFL club, you'd think it woulnd't matter what the local association had to say (though you'd want to get them onside eventually)

Reply #787002 | Report this post


Robbo  
Earlier this year

Second Perth team??

Reply #787004 | Report this post


Senator11  
Earlier this year

I still think with a healthy Aaron Brooks and a bit more time to get used to the NBL would've made the Hawks push for playoffs. Unfortunate injury that derailed their season. Positively they've gotten more playing time into their younger guys and with another preseason to look at imports to fit their system for next season they can give it another crack.

Reply #787005 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Tassie seems as good an option as any for team number 10.

If there's a suitable owner with a suitable plan then go for it.

Then stop at 10- 10 is enough.

If the league is seriously booming and still growing rapidly in 5 years once there's 10 teams, then I'd take a serious look at relocating or replacing Illawarra before I go to an 11 team comp.

Reply #787006 | Report this post


Perthworld's big brother  
Earlier this year

No way Robbo.

Reply #787008 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

It would be hard to establish a fanbase for a 2nd Perth team
Half the city doesn't hate the wildcats and their fans the way they did with the eagles in the AFL

Reply #787013 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Someone left Melo in their fantasy team

Reply #787021 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"Half the city doesn't hate the wildcats and their fans"

no but the rest of the country does so they'd have a lot of interstate members.

Reply #787022 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Earlier this year

I don't want the Hawks to fold. They have a proud and gutsy history.

But the Hawks under Matt Campbell have been utter trash.

1) People don't attend, how hard is it to fill a small stadium?

2) Their teams have been trash. Even when gifted the possible next #1 Draft pick they still F'd it up as spooners and don't even fill the stadium, more people (opposition supporters) attend their road games to see their players than Hawks' fans. Because of the focus on Ball, Naar and Grida have regressed, the only actual player development happened when Ball went down and Naar and Dech stood up.

3) Matt Campbell has come out to state that player development is their priority NOT actually winning. This organisation doesn't even want to win. They just exist to exist and hopefully make a name of churning out a few players with decent stats because they get more minutes.

4) Import choices of washed up Boone, washed up Cedric Jackson, Prime Jordair Jett which is washed up anyway. Their choices are trash.

I don't want to see Hawks fold but they need changes top down.

Reply #787060 | Report this post


Cool Howie  
Earlier this year

LOL at the Bendigo suggestion. Come on bro! Nowhere near good enough.

Hobart, Canberra, Newcastle, Wellington, Christchurch and Western Sydney would all be better options.

Where are the corporate sponsors coming from for Bendigo?

Reply #787065 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Bendigo Bank

Reply #787093 | Report this post


Perthworld's big brother  
Earlier this year

In the words of Gretel Killeen it's time to go Illawarra.

Reply #787097 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

How big is Perthworlds family?

Reply #787129 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Earlier this year

"Yeah, imagine local fans not wanting to turn up to watch a guy who wasn't ready to help his team win and was always going to be gone by the time he was. Strange. "

Crowd numbers for this season are consistent with the idea behind this comment from Cram. Since Ball stopped playing with the Hawks, their average home crowd is up 14% - to 3,522 per game. Prior to that, it was 3,078 per game.

That post Ball average is boosted by the large crowd for the Sydney game but even setting that game aside, crowds are up on average since Ball has gone. And four of their five best attended home games this season have been since Ball finished.

Might be a coincidence, linked to when different teams have played them at home, but interesting nonetheless.

Another Sydney game next weekend should boost their season crowd figure again. Anyone know what they averaged last year?

Reply #787132 | Report this post


Perthworld's big brother  
Earlier this year

Not that big.
There is Perthworld, myself and our little bro.
Our step mother has appeared a few times.
And yes you can tell by the way we post that we are all munters..

Reply #787134 | Report this post


Three to Make Two  
Earlier this year

"They have been an embarrassment for years"

A bit harsh?

Looking at ladders for last 10 years, Hawks finished last once (as have Cairns and Townsville). Adelaide have finished last 3 times, Sydney twice and Brisbane twice. Sydney have also finished 2nd last 3 times.

Hawks have made semi finals 5 times and went on to GF twice.

So, yes, this year hasn't been the best for the Hawks. A huge spotlight was thrown on them with Lamelo. There is a lot of gossip around with his injury. and, as a fan, I would've loved to see him play more. But que sera sera.

It hurt when they lost their leading point scorer who came to the Hawks with less fanfare but has good credentials (Brooks). And who was starting to find his straps. Other injuries didn't help. The (eventual) replacements weren't the golden salvation people were hoping for (well, Hawks fans - I don't know how many other teams would've been happy if the Hawks were beating them all on their way to another finals series.).

And speaking about the results: there were several games where the Hawks were within a few points with minutes left. Sure, they had a couple of blowout losses but most clubs do. And they beat the league leaders. So despite their lowly position on the ladder, they have the ability to push other teams. And they "own" the current 3rd-placed team!).

Next year? Maybe a lot depends on how much Matt Flinn has learnt (if he is the Coach next year). I know from experience that it's a bit of a quantum leap going from Asst Coach to Head Coach, even just running subs (never mind plays ect. And nowhere did they prep me for how to deal with pretty tough, fiesty 15yo boys getting teary when they lost a close semi-final - the emotional investment!). And that was just juniors. So, if Matty can reflect and improve, that will help. Then there are the players...

As to why fans don't turn up? I dunno. I do turn up. And I pay for pretty good seats. People say it's expensive, especially for families. But a lot of that could be down to the monopoly WEC has in Wollongong. However, the WEC is well-located: near the beach, restaurants ect. But it is eccy. And public transport isn't good (which affects a potential population that is spread up and down the coast - I know quite a few people come up from Kiama and Nowra. Nowra is over an hour away and public transport is non-existent). And the food is eccy and their coffee sucks!

Reply #787139 | Report this post


Perth world cousin  
Earlier this year

Hello go nbl

Reply #787141 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

yes

Reply #787154 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

No it isn't. They can house the future next stars and draw in the social media Clicks and views. That's important in the modern day model, it's not all about fans in the stands

Reply #787270 | Report this post


Perthworld's big brother  
Earlier this year

I don't think the Hawks should always get a next star.

Reply #787277 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Great idea. Get clicks and views and next to no one in the stands.

Reply #787318 | Report this post


Three to make two  
Earlier this year

The OP is still baseless, but for all the vultures, circling about, wringing their talons in glee:

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/6592643/hawks-owner-on-shaky-ground-after-nbl-ultimatum/

Reply #788228 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

It's got nothing to do with circling with glee.

Article just proves I was right in my assessment.

It would be sad for a club like the Hawks to fold. But at the end of the day, whilst it takes a rich owner to run an NBL Franchise, the fans need to turn and show that it's worth while.

This is not a new team trying to build a fan base. They should have a die-hard loyal fanbase. But they just don't.
They failed to support the team as a community model, they failed to support it with a moderately wealthy owner, and they have failed with a broke-ass owner.

You can't just keep sitting at home moaning, saying "if a billionaire comes along and rescues the club", and "if the club becomes successful..."

Reply #788266 | Report this post




 

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