Lunacy.

Great news a call out to the local ACT govt show us the money and we'll bring the Cannons back for you like we just did in Tassie.

How many teams make money or don't lose a decent amount (perth aside)? Or is it more of a passion project for an owner and they'll have to be prepared to cop a loss?

Has to be Cannons.

I think the business behind the NBL is a bit different to what us laymen would imagine. I mean just on the logic of it, millionaires aren't millionaires for giving away money so in as much as a team may run at a loss, there has to be a financial incentive to running a team that makes the invesment worth it - tax write off, a way to get other businesses together for other projects. For Governments it also stimulates business around the arena and employment so we've seen some governments put some money in (Tasmania, now they're asking Canberra etc)/

That makes sense ME thanks

It's not a tax write-off.

Bad idea

I seriously doubt that the nbl is a financially viable product.
Problem is they average crowds of 5000. Pre covid 7000. Those numbers are artificially boosted by the amount of free tickets given to local clubs to take kids.
Tv Ratings are difficult to find. Which means reach is small.
Its biggest strength is its biggest weakness. Because all owned by businessman (or hardly successful ex nba stars) they are prepared to put money in on the promise that the league will be second best in the world.
If the economy turns or individuals take a financial hit the club will be sold or left to fold.
And the market won't be there for buyers. The greatest success nbl has had in viewership was when ball played against Hampton (all online so not monetised). But with improvement to G league and the changes to college hoops players now don't need to leave the US. Why come to nbl?
You can see the warning signs. Players are leaving here to go to better/more lucrative markets. Dyson Daniel's chose G league over nbl. Goorgian choosing coaching in the new s e Asian league. Allen and ezi in womens league choosing to play in Europe rather than wnbl. What happened to the future stars program attracting players like ball etc?
Nbl1 has the potential to turn south as well. It's a product made for tv content and when you watch some of the games it's standard is so poor with blowouts or u18 fill ins. Ratings won't follow and without that no moola.
And the moola some of these clubs are spending on players is crazy.
The economy is turning and this will be a critical time for nbl owners. Crocmedia being an example, sen ratings in Melbourne are poor. The underlying business is not strong.
I admire kestleman because he has built the potential of a good product. But as he says the nbl is owned by businessman and they will make a business decision not a best interest of the sport decision.
For the sport to truly grow in australia needs to cut costs. Grow membership/community ownership. Private ownership doesn't work in australia because we are to small a market.

"I seriously doubt that the nbl is a financially viable product."

The actual league itself ran a profit last season.

"Because all owned by businessman (or hardly successful ex nba stars) they are prepared to put money in on the promise that the league will be second best in the world."

So you think the NBL is basically running as a ponzi scheme? If that's the case, how did teams get investors during the dark ages when there was no promise?

Businessmen dont tend to be stupid and they didn't sign on for some pie-in-the-sky dream that maybe the NBL will be the second best league in the world. There isnt a billionaire buying into a new Sydney team because he drank the Koolaid. I think he knows how to not be swindled. The reasons why they buy in would be closer to the ones I cited than the one you are.

"But with improvement to G league and the changes to college hoops players now don't need to leave the US. Why come to nbl?"

Well that's why they've been getting European players, and the NBL pays Next Stars better than the G League does.

"What happened to the future stars program attracting players like ball etc?"

Well... there's been a pandemic.

"Nbl1 has the potential to turn south as well. It's a product made for tv content and when you watch some of the games it's standard is so poor with blowouts or u18 fill ins. Ratings won't follow and without that no moola."

Do you think SEABL ever got ratings? TV content? It's not actually on TV? The NBL simply shows these games. That's it. That league basically existed before the NBL was involved and making profit isn't the purpose of it being there.

"Dyson Daniel's chose G league over nbl. Goorgian choosing coaching in the new s e Asian league"

There are always going to be players and coaches coming and going, and at the same time there has also been Australian talent coming and not going. You dont think most of the leagues best players couldn't be playing elsewhere?

I am not going to feed anyone fake hopium or pretend the league doesn't have challenges, but the NBL isn't fielding offers from around the country because it's this frail, dying product and businessmen don't buy into things to lose money.

The teams collectively had a 20 million dollar loss.

Private ownership has had an interesting history in Australian sport, afl Edelsten, willisee, Cronin, NRL Seattle tinkled, a league - pretty much all owners the league is in its worse position for years. These are all examples were the private ownership model has collapsed and caused heart ache for fans. These were successful businessmen who bought in without the intent of losing money but did!
Remember over this "successful" period it's been underwritten by LK. To his absolute credit. However he has lost money on this so it's in his interest to present a bright future.

It generally works better when overseen by a sporting body ie melb storm.

Private ownership can be a blessing but not in the Australian market.

The nbl1 is shown on tv through Kayo. I'm not referencing sebl because it is two different situations. The problem with nbl1 is you have a lot of clubs throwing a lot of money at players that the clubs can't afford. The only way they will sustain this money is to get a tv rights deal and have a distribution of funds. But the product is not worth watching or more accurately are enough people going to watch nbl1 in preference to afl, rugby,
It is clear the nbl1 strategy was to make a secondary league to run in winter and sell the content. But they can't sell it unless people are watching. They have to give it away.
ESPN signed a deal of 20 mill for nbl rights for three years. They get to pay a distribution to owners but it's not enough when teams are losing 20 million (collectively) a year.

The other major issue with the league is that grass roots is not a priority for these owners. AFL returns money to the game and they struggle to help. Basketball is no different with a real issue unfolding of females leaving the sport to play footy.

The league is going to be in competition with Asian leagues and the money there to attract players. G league will out grow nbl and offer better pay and college finally is enabling players to profit from their likeness. These are all reasons why talent will go elsewhere.

"The nbl1 is shown on tv through Kayo" It maybe but all games (live) are via the NBL1 app.

The Asian leagues are a concern for sure but I think the NBL has done a good job adapting and pivoting where it needs to. Of course we are incredibly lucky to have LK bankrolling this whole thing, and seemingly happy to keep doing so. Without him there is no NBL in the current form. But as the NBL keeps pivoting and trying new things, doing so quicker and with little red tape, I feel like they will continue to find new ways to strike a balance and grow. Let's take a moment to appreciate the TV deal, which is worth 45 million - not 20. The fact that crowds have not been quite as scared away from the NBL as other sports, and the fact that grassroots basketball continues to grow in participation. From everything I've seen so far, and with the admission that the issues you cite do exist, I still trust the NBL's current leadership to find new ways to make a niche for itself, and it looks like other people are buying into that. And as for the failings of the A League - they did just sign a 200 million dollar broadcasting deal. It's not like they're dead in the water either. Things can sometimes sound bad when really, it's standard operating procedure in the sporting world. I'd like to know more about the inner workings of clubs and ownerships but from the conversations I've had, the owners aren't really losing money when all things are considered. A business may lose money but the owners are not. That might sound like an oxymoron but that is how I understand it from the people I have spoken to.

Anyone that uses pivotting twice and trying to sound credible has lost me.

"The teams collectively had a 20 million dollar loss."

In a season significantly impacted by COVID. That's hardly indicative of the health of the league.

The nbl1 is shown on tv through Kayo.

The problem with nbl1 is you have a lot of clubs throwing a lot of money at players that the clubs can't afford. The only way they will sustain this money is to get a tv rights deal

A business may lose money but the owners are not. That might sound like an oxymoron but that is how I understand it from the people I have spoken to.

Koberulz

Purpose of nbl1 has been to remove a lot of smaller associations out of the competition.
The idea being that they can create a second tier competition that runs in the winter and keeps fans interested.
Problem and relevance is the money these clubs are spending is unsustainable without some sort of broadcast deal.
If this doesn't happen It won't be long before nbl1 clubs begin to cut costs. Either they will be periannal cellar dwellers or leave.
It's already happening with teams padding out with players who aren't nbl1 standard.

"Anyone that uses pivotting twice and trying to sound credible has lost me."

I am not even going to outline how dumb that statement is. I thought I might just reshare because it speaks for itself.

I'm not familiar with the Asian leagues. Are they spending money they actually earn through TV deals, ticket sales , etc? Or have they found businessmen to throw money at it in the Hope of growing their leagues? If so, they would have similar problems to the NBL, potentially worse?

East Asian super league is expecting 230 million viewers in its first season.

Purpose of nbl1 has been to remove a lot of smaller associations out of the competition.

The idea being that they can create a second tier competition that runs in the winter and keeps fans interested.

Problem and relevance is the money these clubs are spending is unsustainable without some sort of broadcast deal.

It's already happening with teams padding out with players who aren't nbl1 standard.

"East Asian super league is expecting 230 million viewers in its first season."

Where do you get that from?

ME
https://www.sportico.com/business/finance/2021/easl-basketball-league-1234647545/amp/

Koberulz
Your opinion.
Look at what has happened to big v competition and that's all the evidence you need. The next batch of teams who will be accepted into nbl1 will include Wyndham bulleen and maybe McKinnon. They will then probably create a two division competition out of nbl1 leaving big v as a third level completion. Very few of the remaining clubs will have capacity to enter nbl1.
Plenty of meaningful differences and shows you don't understand what has occurred but that's ok.
Citation - watch the games. Look at the crowd numbers. Then ask around about player payments. There is not the interest in these competitions.
Look at some stat sheets.
Good on players who are making coin but it is unsustainable.

Victoria is not the world.

If anyone can find raw data on tv ratings for nbl it would be great.
I found a reference to a wildcat vs hawks game which said it had 10000 viewers.
A reference to nbl on 10 peach having an audience of 12000.
I found one reference to a wnbl game on Bathurst weekend having a 40000 viewership
A league in comparison had 85000 viewers.
Netball pulls in 60000
Figures for AFLW had 168000 on FTA and another 58000 on Fox.

So the relevance of this is that:
Firstly the nbl/wnbl product is currently totally dependent on deep pockets to keep it alive.
Secondly introducing new teams may look good but Cinderella story like jackjumpers don't equate to people watching. Grand final of nbl did not make top 20 shows on fox tell. Number 20 had audience of 28000.
Introducing teams into small market places is just going to add costs. There is a reason these clubs didn't survive the first time around.
Watch the exodus accelerate from basketball to football. Already aflw has increased its pay for women (doubling amount).

The paradox here is that at grass roots (participation rates) it is healthy. And my point: the model for the nbl is wrong for long term sustainability.

Koberulz
No Vic is not the world. But it shows what one of the purposes of nbl1 was/is. Rationalisation of clubs/associations.
Fewer clubs better.
And while it may not be the world take Victoria out of Australian basketball and you wouldn't have basketball in australia.

If you think the WNBL, up against Bathurst, was quadrupling the NBL viewership figures, I have some nice waterfront property in Arizona to sell you.

But it shows what one of the purposes of nbl1 was/is.

Fewer clubs better.

Koberulz
I think we will have to agree to disagree old chap.
I made no connection between Bathurst and wnbl figures. It was just a set of figures I could find at the higher level.
And yes nbl1 is a process of rationalisation, the fewer clubs the better refers to the clubs on the outer. The big v clubs are being slowly moved to one side leaving just big clubs associations left.
How about this you provide some facts to the debate.

I've heard of player payment figures in the high $200000 for women side only. How do clubs sustain that kind of cost when crowds are lucky to be 50?

Okay, you're definitely high.

I must say, this has been quite an entertaining thread.

BTW - Can't wait for Canberra to re-join the league.

The future of nbl1?
If NBL1 loses some of its low budget, low achievement clubs, maybe its standards would rise appreciably.
Qld, my state, as an eg., reduced from 15 teams to 5 or 6 (nbl1) "super" teams would be a more attractive competiion and a much easier conversion to actual national status. Reducing 76 teams nationally to around 20 to 25 top teams would be a better winter comp to televise too.
The other 7 or 8 teams could easily become an NBL2 comp, and could concievably include a promo-tion/relegation system with NBL1.

I've heard of [NBL1] player payment figures in the high $200000 for women side only. How do clubs sustain that kind of cost when crowds are lucky to be 50?

Truth Rob T

Fox no way Bulleen are going to NBL1, they're not even in State Champ in Big V

I've heard of player payment figures in the high $200000 for women side only"'

So theyre paid more than WNBA stars you think? hahaha

WNBA salary cap is $1,379,200

Would there be much of a reason for a gender pay disparity at NBL1 level? They're all getting the same ticket income, the same broadcast deal, etc. so a lot of the factors that cause the disparity at the national level don't really apply.

I hope the Buccaneers aren't splitting their ticket revenue evenly between the men & women

"Would there be much of a reason for a gender pay disparity at NBL1 level?"

Two factors that will play a big factor are sponsorship and what the market value is for players.

Often at the local level like NBL1, if a business owner puts money in and wants it to go to recruiting talent for the club's top team that's where it will go.

But if a sponsor is about supporting the women's team then that will pump up what the club can pay. Then the other factor is what's required to recruit talent in the two comps.

A rather random article that just popped up in my news feed. The end bit is kinda sorta related to this thread (strange choice of title because it's very much about Canberra).

The uncertain future and rocky history of the NBL in Australia