I disagree. Would you say Karl Malone or Charles Barkley isn't a legended because they haven't won a championship?

Would you think Allen, Garnett and Pierce would have ever won a championship if they weren't on the same team?

These days are different. Teams have to have great chemistry. Also it doesn't matter if you are one of the best players in the league, the league is so competitive now that to say he must win a title now without shaq is unfair due to the competitive nature of the league. They might possibly win it this year but if doesn't it wont be no huge shock.

I disagree but sure another one would be nice ;)

i can see where your coming from though

If you think back though, what was the last championship team to win with only one legit superstar? Probably back to the 1994 Houston Rockets with Olajuwon. Jordan had Pippen, Duncan had Parker, Shaq had Kobe, Wade had Shaq, Kareem had Magic/Worthy/Wilkes...

Some guys like Malone had Stockton and Hornacek, and STILL couldn't win.

IMO, Kobe doesn't need to win on his own. Hell, Michael never did.

Chamberlain did hmm

"Also it doesn't matter if you are one of the best players in the league, the league is so competitive now that to say he must win a title now without shaq is unfair due to the competitive nature of the league. They might possibly win it this year but if doesn't it wont be no huge shock."

That seals it for me then really.

The league is competitive every year.

Would Jordan, Russell etc accept the 'its a competitive league' cop-out? Hell no, they won time again.

Shaq won time again.

Magic, Kareem, Bird.

For me, Kobe will be on the sub list along with the Malones, the Barkleys and the Pippens, the Thomas's the Hakeems and the Wests.

Not bad company ffs! But not a full blown legend of the game. I think he would definately need to win another title, probably two since he has stumbled onto another chock a block roster...

"For me, Kobe will be on the sub list along with the Malones, the Barkleys and the Pippens, the Thomas's the Hakeems and the Wests.

Not bad company ffs! But not a full blown legend of the game. I think he would definately need to win another title, probably two since he has stumbled onto another chock a block roster..."

Does that make Robert Horry 'King of the sub list' for all his rings?

Quagmire, I don't think that Shaq was the catalyst in Miami - Wade was the one.

It's interesting to see that Shaq is struggling in Phoenix, the question is would Shaq have won in LA if Kobe wasn't there? In 2004 when the Pistons took them 4-1, Why didn't Shaq step up his game? He couldn't out muscle Sheed and Big Ben?

Bizzy, he didn't take over because they didn't give him the ball often enough. I remember watching that series and thinking what are they doing, in every set offense he should touch the ball at least once but often he would go several trips down the floor without touching the ball. Kobe wanted to win it all by himself.

Bizzy, you're a complete gimp. Allow me if you will to set you straight. Shaq being the catalyst for the Heat's title is arguable. What we do know is that Wade never came close to a title before he got there or since he's left and Shaq did guarantee a title when he first arrived in Miami.

Shaq is not struggling in Phoenix by any stretch of the Kobe-induced imagination. He averaged 13 and 11 last season at 61% with the Suns and this season is putting up 17 and 9 at 60% and looks like he will be an all-star again this season for the 15th time.

How dare you try and put any blame on Shaq for the debacle of the '04 Finals loss against Detroit. Kobe was refusing to pass the ball to him or anyone else and shot the Lakers out of that series. Here's the facts champ:

Kobe 22.6ppg, 2.8rpg, 4.4apg, 3.6topg 38.1% FG, 17.4% 3pts

Shaq 26.6ppg, 10.8rpg 63.1% FG

This is why I hate Kobe homers. On top of being complete retards they're also deceitful and will do and say anything to try and gloss over Kobe's failings even by attacking the best player in that series and the very reason why Kobe has those three championships.

Its a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' question i think.

Having shaq on your team means the wing player (Hardaway, Kobe, D-wade) can cruise and flourish in the fourth. He also creates the space for these guys to operate.

Just look at what happens when he leaves- Hardaway couldn't bare the load, injuries robbing us of a star. Kobe floundered until getting his Gsaol of life. (there is your side-kick Mutley) and Wade succombed last season to the weight of the load.

My thinking is any dude that can be the man on three differen't teams that make the finals, is a player to be feared.

Bizzy- don't blame Shaq for the suns this season, dude is still averaging 20/10 lately on old knees carrying 350 pounds in limited minutes, blame Amare. (you had to know that was coming!)

By the way, i have a cyber crush on Chuck Nevitt's point of view re Kobe.

1, last year wasde of injured for a large majority (resulting in a bad miami record) ..just see what his doing this year

2, 81 points isnt floundering

Here is a prediction- D-wade cannot sustain this level all season without wearing down and getting injuries. So many top wing players eventualy wear down over the entire season and end up injured or too weak to carry the load into the post-season. Especially slashers.

It is what separates the MJ's from the rest- he carried teams to 72 wins while managing his health and never pushing too hard.

LBJ is Jordan like in this regard, he will sustain this level and be ready for the play-offs.

(have i just put a huge reverse mocker on the cavs?)

Quagmire - "For me, Kobe will be on the sub list along with the Malones, the Barkleys and the Pippens, the Thomas's the HAKEEMS and the Wests."

Hakeem won a title or two at Houston...

I was with you until you mentioned Hakeem as well. WHAT THE!?

Hakeem is the greatest centre ever! (In my opinion, but certainly one of)

I hate this Kobe must win to be a legend thing, its a joke. Why can't it be for 3 rings, an MVP, all-star appaerances, being the most lethal scorer in the game for the last 10 years...having ridiculous 50 and 40 point game tallys and streaks, being on the most clutch players EVER

And I'm still yet to find someone to name me ONE 'legend' that did it without a great supporting cast.

Shaq can never win without Kobe either, and Wade carried his ass in Miami. Bird had arguably the best team in NBA history, Magic had the leagues leading point scorer...MJ had a hall of famer in Scottie Pippen...I could go on, but someone name a lonesome star that won a ring without significant help.

Case could be made for Hakeem AND Duncan to be on the list. But i think you start to split hairs a bit.

Actually no, they both deserve to be there i guess.

I really think that when his career is over, if Kobe doesn't win another ring, he will never be mentined among the legends of the game.

For the record, my ultimate legends of NBA list, no particular order;

Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Hakeem and the walking poo.

Kobe needs to win two more rings for me to put him in this group.

Your only saying that because hes an active player. This is a case of the history of the game being glorified. Kobe makes plays that I've only seen the likes of Jordan make...

You didn't answer me about not ONE ring winner having significant help (maybe besides Wade)

And PLEASE tell me you were joking about Duncan....pleeeeeease

does quagmire even no nba? ;)

Quagmire- you're talking as if Kobe's 3 rings don't count, that's crazy as hell man. This post should be

"Lebron must win to become true champion"

why the hell talk about Kobe

I don't get it, Kobe has already won 3 times, why does he need to win again to be classed as a 'champion'? I think some people severly underestimate the current generation of players when comparing them to mythical names like Jordan, Bird, Wilt and so on. Is Bird any less of a champion because he played with the likes of McHale, Parish, DJ etc? Going to put an asterix next to his titles?

I played with Bird? hehehehe

Kove-for-MVP yes i think Quagmire does KNOW NBA and brings some good discussion to the board on a board that has far to little NBA chat. Just because we don't all agree with his opinions it does bring up some good debate.

I think I agree Kobe is great but yet to reach LEGEND status. But there are very few players who do reach LEGEND status whilst still playing, this is normally something that cames about when people are reflecting on their careers and what they have achieved.


It has been mentioned that perhaps people will forget Kobe and that his titles will always be remebered as Shaq's. Or will Kobe be remebered as a great individual with the ball who seems to be trying his hardest to become more and more of a team man to win a championship. Will he be remembered for his crazy scoring games and as a side note three championships (or more) I feel in time he will be remembered as one of the LEGENDS of the game.

Quag..seriously mate.......lets go to the playoff stats for all 3 rings

1999-2000 title

Shaq - 30.7pts, 15.4 reb, 3.1 assists, 2.39blks
Kobe - 21.1pts, 4.5 reb 4.4 assists, 1.45 st & Blks

The rest of the team

Glen Rice, 12.4pts, Ron Harper 8.6, Horry 7.6, Brian Shaw 5.4, Fisher 4.7, Fox 4.4, AC Green 3.9, George 2.4, Travis Knight 1.3, Salley .9

2000-2001

Shaq - 30.4pts, 15.4 reb, 3.2 assists, 2.38blks
Kobe - 29.4pts, 7.3 reb 6.1 assists, 1.56st & .75Blks

The Rest

Fisher 13.4, Fox 10, Horace Grant 6, horry 5.9, shaw 4.4, harper 2.2, george 2.0, Ty Lue 1.9, Mad Dog Madsen .4, Greg Foster 0

2001-2002

Shaq - 28.5pts, 12.6 reb, 2.8 assists, 2.53blks
Kobe - 26.6pts, 5.8 reb 4.6 assists, 1.42st & .89Blks

Next best....Fisher with 10ppg....wont go through the rest

Yes Shaq dominated, but Kobe put up some decent numbers in all 3 title wins

Now

"Shaq was the alpha dog and the catalyst for the championships. That was proved when he won in Miami"

Shaq - 18.4pts, 9.8reb, 1.7ass 1.48blks - 37% ft's
Wade - 28.4pts, 5.9reb, 5.7ass, 2.22st, 1.13blk

IMO....Wade carried the Heat to that one......Shaq just went along for the ride!!

Dont get me wrong...Kobe or Wade wouldnt have won titles without Shaq, but the Diesel needed both those wingmen just as much

Quag .....do ur research before you post mate

I love it how the discussion is when do superstars become legends? I think the difference between this terminology has been played up in this thread, why wouldnt you just agree that all these guys were amazingly successful and talented ballers? Incidentally I agree with the rest of the Quag bashing, respect ya for putting your opinion out mate, but anyone who wins scoring titles, mvp, and 3 championships is legendary by my standards.

BTW agree completely with you Fez

shaq would'nt have won in miami without wade. And he wouldn't have won anything in LA without kobe. When shaq wins a title without a superstar guard then come talk to me.

Baller ...he wont

Came to the Suns promising a ring...and sorry to say....He wont deliver

Shaq.....if u want another ring.....come back to LA

Im sure you would fit in nicely backing up Bynum..lol

Backing up Bynum, yeah good one lol

This thread has gone a bit too pear shaped with all the kids Kobe talk. Now we all know Kobe goes belly up in the heat of the Finals but I thought I'd put up the Finals series numbers together for Shaq and the rapist:

2000 NBA Finals:

Shaq 38ppg, 16.7rpg, 2.7bpg, 2.3apg 61.1% FG
Kobe 15.6ppg, 4.6rpg, 4.2apg 36.7% FG, 20% 3pts

2001:

Shaq 33ppg, 15.8rpg, 4.8apg, 3.4bpg 57.3% FG
Kobe 24.6ppg, 7.8rpg, 5.8apg, 3.6topg 41.5% FG 33.3% 3pts

2002:

Shaq 36.3ppg, 12.3rpg, 3.8apg, 2.8bpg 59.5% FG
Kobe 26.8ppg, 5.8rpg, 5.3apg, 3.8topg 51.4% FG 54.5% 3pts

2004:

Shaq 26.6ppg, 10.8rpg, 1.6apg, 0.6bpg 63.1% FG
Kobe 22.6ppg, 4.4apg, 2.8rpg, 3.6topg 38.1% FG, 17.4% 3pts

I'll never forgive Kobe for costing Shaq a 5th ring and a 4th Finals MVP because he wanted to try and be the hero in '04 and wound up with egg all over that smug face of his. How much did he have to pay that poor girl in Colorado again?

Pure scum.

yo, you're comparing a 21/21yo, 2yr NBA vet kid to somebody who was in his prime...Kobe hasn't done too shabby at all considering MJ wasn't even playing in the league at that age

Kobe has already won gold. Who gives a shite who it was with.

"Kobe must win to become true champion."?

So anyone that can't win a title on their merit alone isn't a champion? That makes Paul Pierce happy but KG and Ray Ray aren't going to be too happy when you tell them that The Truth is the only true champion on the team and the rest are tag-alongs like Kobe.

Feel free to talk to David Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu and say the same thing while you're at it.

"Sorry guys, but Big Timmy was the man; I'm afraid you're merely saps along for the ride".

Chuck....cmon mate....do u need to head down that track?

He was never convicted of rape......pretty uncalled for mate

That was a bit low Chuck.

I am by no means a Kobe lover, and have been watching NBA for over 20 years now, and IMO Shaq needs a sidekick to help carry the load. The advantage Shaq has as jules mentioned is with his size either teams have to double Shaq and leave his guards open or they don't double Shaq and he scores. If Shaq doesn't have a quality guard IMO it won't work.

Shaq Does need a good wing player, no doubt.

But in his prime years, he would of won on any team that had a 20ppg wing player on it. Or pg for that matter.

Guys, Kobe is an awesome talent, and a winner in a lot of respects, but my point is when all is said and done, and his career is 5-10 years over, will we be saying things like;

' legends of the game like Jordan, Magic, Bird and Kobe'


Does he make that list if he doesn't win a title without a dominant player like Shaq.

Fez- your point about having a player alongside doesn't hold weight because when you say Jordan and Pippen, or Magic and Kareem, or Bird and McHale, the fact is you put the main guys name first.

Like Shaq and Kobe.

If Kobe wins another title it will be Kobe and Gasol.

Then we can talk about maybe Kobe being on the Jordan, Magic Bird realm. I just don't think he is there yet.

So if you adopt that theory then Quag

Wade is already a legend of the game....coz he carried the Heat to a title and not Shaq

Kobe will when he retires go down as one of the greatest, unless injury gets the better of him...regardless of another title or not

Statistically he is up there with the greats