Expectations need to be adjusted for two things: the modern NBL where more stock/budget is put into local players, and the 40 minute game. As you'll see below, only one import is getting numbers like the imports of old that some people are still accustomed to - actually, only one import is even topping 17 PPG.

I don't know for sure, but Ervin might be the biggest expense for the Hawks. For other sides, Australians would probably be the most expensive players (these are all guesses) - Penney/Bruton, Redhage, Loughton, Ballinger, Khazzouh, Worthington, etc. These guys all feature high on the scoring list.

Scoring output of imports:

Ervin 23.2 (1st)
Ubaka 16.8 (5th in the league)
Gruber 16.0 (one game)
Clark 16.0 (one game)
Braswell 14.7
DeVries 14.0
Devendorf 13.2
McCullough 12.8
Lisch 12.6
Wilkinson 12.3
Blalock 12.2
Campbell 11.8
Winder 10.8
Hudson 10.0 (one game)
Dorsey 10.0
Freeman 9.5
Grizzard 8.8
Maye 7.5 (two games, cut)

Most of the existing imports have taken a huge hit in the scoring department because of the shorter game.

High scoring in this league has always been due to the fast-paced offence of most teams. Guys like Ervin tend to make most of their points from scoring in the first 5-10 seconds of posession. The rest comes from spot 3's.

You also have to say to that nearly every team in the league this season has improved their defence ten-fold. Unless you get a fast break or steal, most teams are forced to use up at least 20 seconds of the shot clock running plays.

I agree with the points above.

Everyone needs to realise these days that the impact an import will have now is limited compared to how it was say 10 years ago. As a result, expectations should be down. Having said that we should still expect them to perform and to be a valuable asset to the team rather then a hindrance.

Given all I hear is the club is in a 'rebuilding' phase and have patience so we can try and have a run in at the title in 3 years time I guess our expectations should be low and hopefully they inprove each year as our best palyer (Balls) gets older and older then we will need a PF!

disappointing we have to lower expectations but so be it - a 3 - 5 year plan needs to start somewhere and idf we get structure right will reap rewards

Take into consideration some of the imports were believed to be on about $300k a season so with budgets being cut and the league monitoring salary caps better this has seen the standard of imports drop. We are probably very lucky that the Aussie dollar is so strong, imagine if it was 60c to the dollar, this would mean the salary we could offer to American's would be 40% less!

We do need 4 - 6 weeks to gel guys..

Keep in mind that Creek will be joining the squad before years end as well; so more "gelling" will be required.

Every game so far has shown one thing (same thing for the past 2 years): the team needs to be consistent in their play; that's all.

The NZ game "WAS" a win; consistency let down the team in the dying minutes. The Breakers kept consistent to take the lead.

I think with Imports its hit or miss.
The 36ers have probably been a little unlucky with their recent imports over the years.

Alot of imports that come into the league have good stats overseas and the coaches look at extreme amounts of tape etc.

Its just hit or miss as to whether those stats translate into the NBL.

Mark Tyndale averaged 19.4 ppg in his junior year at Temple, John Gilchrist averaged 15.4 points in his second year at Maryland(which is a pretty bigtime school) and they did an alright job in the NBL. Eric Devendorf tore stuff up at Syracuse and averaged 17 ppg in his junior year, and yet he has struggled this year. On the other hand, Carlos Powell averaged 16 ppg in his senior year at SC and yet he came into the league and absolutely killed it, i still remember that 50 point game. Same with Ty McKee, he averaged 18 ppg at small Coppin State Uni yet he came over here and killed it too.
I guess what im saying is that all those players I mentioned above had similar stats in College, yet their influence on the NBL varied greatly.
You can see why the 36ers staff got Gilchrist and Tyndale in..they had spectacular college careers.
They just didn't fit in or their game wasn't suited to the NBL.

Every team has signed a few bad imports over the years. It's not like coaches (namely the 36ers coaches) are going out and getting imports that have averaged 5 ppg at some small university or college.
The Winder choice IMO wasn't the best though; The dude averaged 2.2 ppg with 7.4 mpg at Texas. Good that he was from Texas, which is mostly always in the top 25 polls. But IMO why sign a guy that didn't do anything in his collegiate career.
I can live with coaches selecting guys with good stats at college or overseas and them failing or underperforming because they don't fit the system or style of play. I can't live with coaches getting imports that have proved barely anything or nothing and they are not performing.

I think Winder was signed for his D-League and foreign play after that, and his pre-season showed he can contribute at this level. But twice it's come down to distribution in that fourth quarter. Needs to remember that he has quality firepower on the court with him.

I'm reading that article about the Kings imports averaging 'sub-par' numbers and wondering how many plays are drawn for them? If Khazzouh and Ryan are primary targets, of course Grizzard and McCullough will struggle to get shots up. I think Grizzard only had 9 attempts in that game - hit better than 50% and it could still only be a 10 point game. Robilliard:

Rob (Rod?) had nine shots in 27 minutes. When he took it to the hoop he looked good, but it just doesn't happen enough.

Nice post MACDUB. There is a common misconception that the imports that come to the NBL are second rate compared to other leagues, but generally they are pretty good players.

As for Winder, he had an outstanding second half in the D-League last year, one of the best shooting guards going around apparently. That is the issue though, he is a shooting guard and this is a league where there is a lot of pressure on ballhandling and decision making.

Solution is simple though, have Devries handle the ball late in games and use Winder in his natural position or even as a small forward, as he is strong enough to defend most players in that spot.

As already posted my thoughts on Winder wont bore you all again but wanted to raise that Winders resume wasnt that great anyway .
I think many posters wrote they werent excited by.
Yes know these guys to a budget but this case maybe looking for flair and didnt work with Gilchrist and he had a lot more talent than Winder

If the officiating on Friday wasn't handled by mental hospital escapees we would be sitting equal 3rd with Cairns and I daresay this would be a far different place right now.

The reaction to a loss is just getting more and more ridiculous every year.

I'm well and truly on the "keep Winder" side and think he'll improve those numbers significantly as the season progresses.

Good posts by MACDUB and Isaac.

While it's true that stats for all players are not as impressive in a 40 minute game compared to a 48 minute game, you can’t blame the shorter game on the fact both the Sixers imports are shooting well below 40% from the field. Doesn’t matter if it’s a 40 or a 48 minute game, shooting mid-30% from the field is disastrous. I agree, defense in the NBL has been much improved over the last few seasons, but let’s get real...the shooting from the imports has been putrid.

But is it them or the system? Right now only Ballinger, Johnson and Dowdell are shooting well. The rest of the 9 players in the rotation are not shooting anywhere near a respectable level.

With a 2-3 record after playing 4 of the first 5 games at home and shooting numbers as woeful as the Sixers have put up, something has to change somewhere to start turning things around.

Let's drop Winder now and replace him with Grizzard now that he's been cut from the Kings.

I'm a fan of Grizzard.

Grizzard........ Do not want!!!!!

People need a reality check after each loss. Maybe you should lock the forum for 12 hours after each loss Isaac.

The 6ers got beaten by three retards, (my sincere apologies to all retards that are offended by being compared to those three muppets who were masquerading as NBL referees) and a red hot Breakers team. Ambercrombie pull out a blinder and Braswell probably played his best game of the season to date. CJ was CJ, and has a habit of killing the 6ers.

I'm all for keeping Winder at this stage. He's shown enough to persist with. He's coming from a D League environment with a mentality where you look after yourself and your numbers first and then worry about the team second. He'll adjust to the NBL.

I am a Grizzard fan, but if we were to drop Winder we would need to replace him with a PG i would think, unless we start Carter and allow guys like Ng, Hill, DeVries to play back up pg, maybe Griz could even play 5-10 mins at pg???

Out of the names rumoured to the tigers Homocide is the only real Pg, what would people think if we got Homocide? or are we better off hanging onto Winder? or changing the balance and getting Grizard?

All Clubs want their imports to be stars, and generally this means scoreboard results. Let's face it, nothing more exciting that being 2 points down, 17 secs to go on the final play and the import swishes a 3 from the corner to seal a one point win.

The average offense is 81.8 ppg. Imports generally make up 12.9 ppg each (32% of output), the Australasians get the other 56 ppg. Teams need to be scoring at the rate of 0.409 points per man per minute to get 81.8 ppg. At the moment, imports score at the average rate of 0.465 pts/min (12.9 ppg in 27.7 mins) Sam Harris is scoring an amazing 2.143 ppg - give him 40 mins!

The leader in the imports is Ervin at 0.657 p/min and Grizzard was scoring at 0.346.

Therefore, if you look at the scoreboard as the sole criteria, any import scoring less than 12.9 ppg and/or 0.465 p/min needs to be concerned and less than 0.409 p/min needs to be worried about their spot and start shooting practice.

Currently, De Vries is 0.446 and Winder is 0.400 points per minute. Reckon "Silky" is travelling OK at the moment, but should be over 14.6 ppg.

The "Sidewinder" should be averaging over 12.6 ppg and might need to book a consult with the Shooting Doctor to work on his 3 pointers if he wants to spend Christmas with the Coopers.

I don't see why the shorter game should impact on an Import's score. If they are as good as an import should be, there is no reason why they still can't play the same minutes they were in the longer game unless off course they were already playing 48 minutes. It would take minutes away from the rest of the team but they are paid the big bucks to take the lion's share of the work.

The style of game has changed EC. Look at the import contributions to the last two championship teams.

Winder Groves and Grizzard's 36ers stats are similar.
DeVries stats - I imagine make him sixers best player this season ( other than shooting % - but, you'd think that will improve - which he said it should do.)

Junga, good point about shooting percentages. All need to lift and it won't get any easier on the road.

I'm curious as to why Ballinger and DeVries both turned down open threes last game. In DeVries case, he could've got off a shot over Bruton and the resulting shot on that play was Holmes' baseline airball. I'd rather DeVries taking the three in that case.

Anons gonna anon.

Isaac,

I think the play you are talking about was a set play (after a time out?) and DeVries made a conscious effort to run the play rather than shoot the three. Why it ended up with Holmes I dont know - surely that wasn't the play Clarke drew up?

Ballinger's long-range attempts are down to a third of what they've been in previous seasons. I guess some of that might come down to his change in position, but he still seems to have turned down some of the opportunities he's had.

DeVries is getting a decent number up, but I can't recall how many of them have been 'open'.

I'm so excited... Our coach basically promised us that he will improve the Sixers by five spots over three years. Wow. Amazing. In a nine team league. And only three years.

Great three year plan coach. Just ask Scotty about the dangers of a three year plan....

ineedmore, where did you get that from?

All this talk about development of a team in a professional league - I don't get it? Only 10 players on the roster, so shouldn't they be good enough to be there?

I can't imagine that any NBA team would be looking at a 3 or 5 year plan to make finals. Yes, that is a different world altogether, but you get my point?!

Do the fans of any team go to the games to watch a 3 year development plan unfold and hope that they have a win or two in the mean time?

Solution - raise the cap. Enable better quality players to be attracted to NBL which will surely have the flow on effect in terms of support and revenue. If the team owners aren't getting a return on their investment straight away...……be patient and wait 3 to 5 years!!!!

I understand that all the NBL clubs are doing money, between 350 and 800K.
By my calculations as an example.
Raise the cap by 500K to attract the players.

Average ticket price 20.00 if you average adault and child
14 home games

That will reqire 1,785 extra spectators / game just to cover the increased cap, not including any current loss.

Cant see how that will work

From what I see the clubs need an extra 1500 spectators / game now, just to break even.

If this forum is any indication with the negative attitude towards the clubs and players, I cannot see that result being acheived. So there is no way anyone would invest in players only for a long term plan.
I think it has to be a combination of the two

ITK: It was story that ran in the Sunday Mail

Spinner, NBA teams absolutely do plan for the future like that. There would be a lot of teams building young talent, watching for trade opportunities and planning for a serious run in the future.

In fact, I'd say it happens more in the NBA than here!

You hear talk of championship windows where a core of players are at their peak (the NBL equivalent is probably New Zealand who can't keep Bruton and Boucher there forever). The Celtics are in that position with Allen, Pierce and Garnett. Perhaps the Spurs too with Duncan. Lakers have a bit more time on their hands while Miami have made unprecedented moves to try and set themselves up for the decade to come.

There's less cap flexibility in the NBL so making drastic moves is a lot harder. e.g., you couldn't put together a Bullets-type championship team in two seasons with the current salary cap. Things like holding Corletto and DMac for under the real points value helped Melbourne. Building a young core of Australians helped the Kings under Goorjian. The Breakers loaded up when the cap was "flexible" and have held on to their studs while nurturing Abercrombie, Pledger and Webster and bringing back Vukona.

Beveridge realistically did his ground work at West Sydney with Martin and Knight before combining them with a rookie Wagstaff, plus Redhage and a solid import Lisch in Perth.

Like your comment spinner, although I'm not sure about raising the salary cap.

But the NBL is not the NBA, you don't get to rebuild via a draft or trades over time.

To me it sounds like we're just putting a team on the floor to make up the numbers, and we don't expect to win anything ... and everyone should be ok with that.

If the only other alternative is that there is no Sixer team at all, I'n not sure what I would choose.

The frustration I feel as a fan over the past few years is pretty hard to describe, or maybe it isn't, it's just depressing actually.

You spend half the year waiting for the season to start only to be dished up Cortez Groves, Craig Winder (please don't tell me he can shoot), Scott Ninnis, Marty Clarke, Darren Ng, Brad Hill....

When someone exciting like Daniel Johnson comes along what do you do? Anchor him to the bench! (Tom Garlepp anyone?) As a bonus this also allows you to slaughter your franchise player by playing him out of position.

But like everyone else I have the choice of voting with my wallet, and I vote to stay away.

Why are so afraid of making changes once we realise we have something that doesn't work?

I can only guess it's because we can't afford to. But if that's the case as a fan I'd like to know that. Instead of leaving me to assume it's incompetence.

Numbers, the NBL does need to increase crowd numbers. The fact the NBL is on One HD is helping IMO.

FTO TV helps drive up excitement, and gives the sport the promotion is needs. Free promotion is so important. The sport needs a few snake oil salesmen in the PR department to get some coverage.

Let's pick on Channel 7 for instance. Have a look at the news sports reports. OMG, we are not even playing aussie rules at the moment and there is a news story every day. Draft picks, someone's knee injury, a good news story on some player's mum who make potpurri, "let's go fishing with some random has been".

7 has the broadcast rights to AFL so it needs to drum up interest so it can sell advertising space. I would suggest that C7 places emphasis on AFL as a result so there needs to be lots of news stories (all positive) on AFL, and get players, former players, coaches etc to go on the "lifestyle" programmes. Why don't these programmes do a "fishing with Balls" segment?

Personally, a "Julius swims with the white pointers" would be a favourite for me.

More than that, it's because making changes too frequently sets you back as much as you might gain. Considering there is a cap at play and that the big money goes to Ballinger and DeVries, why be so sure that there is dynamite out there to replace Winder? Aside from Ervin and Braswell (not cheap), much of the rest of the current import contingent is not miles off the pace. Blalock, Freeman, Campbell, Devendorf, Grizzard, McCullough - they're all in a similar boat. I wouldn't swap Winder for any of those guys in a hurry.

Marty Clarke is a highly respected coach with a solid future ahead of him and you're nuts to write him off like that so early in his NBL career.

It's a so-so start, and you have every right to vote with your wallet, but try to have realistic expectations and look for some positives out there.

ineedmore
Listen to yourself
As a fan you demand more, and demand to be told what is going on, then you choose to vote no with your wallet and stay away.
You are not a fan, people like you contribute nothing other than complaining.
The ticket holders that turn up and support each week are the heart and sole, and will be the key to success.

Go away now!

Jack,
I agree 100% with you on the One HD.
Best marketing decision the NBL has ever made.
Will take a few years me thinks

I doubt that he would go on record and say "I will win the title this year"

Isaac, trust me I trawl for positives with the Sixers, I really do.

I think one of the things I was trying to say is if money is tight and there aren't great imports out there - don't get one. Let someone like Carter run the point the entire year.

Save money on the import spot and BE SEEN to be devleoping young Australian talent.

Id love to see Carter playing the point next year after having a year under his belt of running the point for 30 minutes a game in 2010.

I would be more than happy to take the lumps that came with that process.

If it didn't come off, fair enough, at least you could see there was a direction and they were aiming for a goal.

But I get riled up when we are stuck with imports - professional/career basketball players - who aren't up to scratch and we hold onto them for too long.

Numbers, sorry to upset you but I don't think I was demanding anything, just putting forward a fan view point.

And if I may say so, "people like me" helped create this league.

But like me, you are entitled to your opinion.

Ineedmore, you might be able to handle Carter running the point (I wouldn't mind it either and think they may consider it next season) and the team playing without imports but I guarantee you that after the very first loss or even average performance from any player, that countless fans would be whining about the lack of imports. And then people would start talking about Ere, Smith and so on. You can just imagine it, can't you?

Yes I could imagine it, but what's the worst that could happen? We finish last?

You could probably even justify it - we have an eye to the future, we are rebuilding etc. (we have a three year plan?)

Here's hoping.

Yea, Winder isnt too bad comparing to many others as was said above, but at this stage is no star, I think the cap is finally being policed properly meaning clubs are not able to get the read big dollar imports, or atleast making it alot harder.

What would people prefer, running say Carter at the point, signing a back up pg like a lindsay tait and using the remainder of Winders salary and Devries salary and signing 1 absolute stud import eg Donta Smith or Ebe Ere, or running with two ok imports like we have no with DeVries and Winder?

Personally i cant make my mind up, for one id love to see a stud import and they could potentially have a greater impact than 2 average imports and also like the idea of giving a guy like Carter a good go and developing young aussie talent,

but on the other hand it would be a risk if the one import didnt turn out as expected and it may be better to have two good imports than one high priced stud import

Real fan: I would love to hear the coach/management say "We will be doing everything we can to win the title this year.'

If not, come out, be honest and say we are rebuilding...and then justify the payroll for a few of underacheivers with, arguably, not a lot of upside.

I accept that DeVries doing better than last years 2 imports and way in front of Winder but Isaac would hate to think we paid too much money for him as certainly no Balls or Brett or rate in top 12 imports in league currently.

Well I'd be happy to watch Mitch Creek, Carter and Johnson play significant minutes/roles and at crunch time, and just live with the "rebuilding" losses. I could even enjoy watching Stilt Man backing up Johnson.
I thought that's how you did it, by investing QUALITY minutes on those with possible upsides to see if they are up to it.

bretts, DeVries is in the top 12 imports in the league.

Ineedmore, they are trying to win but at the same time they have an eye on the future and building a culture at the club.

Anon from Sydney - are you a remote fan or just here to stir shit and complain about everything in every 36ers thread? You could try the Kings if the 36ers just aren't doing it for you?

You cant rebuild by getting flogged every game. We are being competitive each week then we go back to training and work on more.

I think Troy brings a lot of stability to a team which is a young group. He has been solid in every game. If he isn't scoring he increases his contributions elsewhere.

I think the coaches took a bet each way on the imports.
Troy was a know quantity who knows the NBL, Winder like Gilchrist was tha gamble, obviously very talented, but unknown.
From last season I think we are definately in front on the Troy/Cortez, as for John/ Craig time will tell.

Isaac - Yes,the NBA recruits for the future....and then sends them off to another league to develop!!

Perhaps NBL teams should have a squad of 20. That would be 10 players in the first team and the other 10 playing SEABL or similar. A bit like AFL teams having seconds.

Would that work?

Well put Real Fan, they went for a steady player (Devries) and a more spectacular player (Winder). If you sack an import there is no guarantee the next guy will be any better, and you have to give him a month before you can make a judgement.

If the team likes what they see from the imports at training they should stick with them and find better ways to utilise their talents in games.

The big thing for the Sixers is to pinch one of these two road games this weekend. Defensive intensity will be the key, as will hitting more than a quarter of their three point shots. Establishing Ballinger and Winder in the low block will help create better looks.

Spinner, the D-League helps, but the NBA also have lengthy primary rosters - Mills is one of 15 players on the Blazers roster and it is common for teams to suit 12 for a game and play 10 (or more?). But I'm talking about a team like the Thunder - for the last few years they and their fans have had no real intentions of challenging for the championship immediately, but are building towards it with young players like Durant (22 yo, co-captain), Westbrook (22), Ibaka (21) in their current starting line-up, Harden (21) off the bench and Green (24, co-captain) sitting out games injured but usually starting or in primary rotation.

The Thunder are considered a rising force - went 23-59 when they started rebuilding, then 50-32 last season. I think they're about 6-2 so far this season.

I don't know that the NBL could afford to do what you've suggested, at least not with paid positions. Free training bait helps, but a lot of these are local long-shots. The best younger players will be at the AIS or US colleges.

Is it interesting that every club below (or equal) to the 36ers on the premiership table have now added a new import(s)?
They see something isn't working and realise you actually don't have half a season to get things right in this league.

In the past Adelaide has shown plenty of patience with imports with the results in black and white for all to see and draw your own conclusions. I wonder if this will be the case again this year.

Crikey, what I'd give to have a positive thought about the sixers. Can't wait to see Mitch Creek bounce a ball in uniform.

Maybe the road trip prove us wrong but key with Winder is that if dont replace him take him out of PG spot as wrecking any resemblance of co- ordination within group and making wrong decisions under pressure. And every game so far the PG has killed us as well even Cooper did until injured