Loughton should be ahead of Ballinger and Forman, I'd say.

Here's how Pro Stats ranks them by their own efficiency method.

That is a terrible terrible list! No way are even half of those players in the right spots!

Considering who wrote it, it's a list not worth spitting on. The amount of crap he spins is breathtaking, and it's amazing anyone takes him seriously.

Annex, let's see your list then. I would rank the players differently myself, but I appreciate Paul's efforts with the NBL and on this site, even if people are going to disagree.

Adam Gibson has a boomers jersey doesn't make the cut?

Petrie at 5?
Crosswhite in there at all?

Kidding yourself.

I agree to a point with a few selections in the list. However you have to read past some of the stat lines and see what the players actually do.

Redhage is certainly a Top-3 atm. He's well rounded in his stats, is the primary go-to guy for his team and is a fairly big scorer. Can shoot well in the clutch.

Ervin (probably everyone's No#1) is probably the most talented in the list and his stats fit the role he plays on the team.

Penney being No#2 at the moment is a joke. Re-rate the list in about 2 months and he would probably be there.

Honestly, if they're trying to do a "Power Rankings" or "MVP" rankings list like they do in the NBA, it would be preferable to rate the players on what they have done so far this year versus what they have done in PREVIOUS seasons.

Would have expected Ubaka and Loughton to be higher. Balls is still one of the best players in the league IMO, but if they're rating him on stats, he's only going to be as high as the 10-spot for now.

Anon (pick a random name if you can?) - that's an ideal world but this isn't an ideal world. A lot of those Euro guys would be getting the salary cap on their own. They're not going to be playing here in a hurry. So, no shit, we're not going to win over every fan. But you can only work with what's there.

Dragons did a lot right, but for how long until they burned through too much cash and died? Not long.

Biggest issue with Paul's list is that he needs to decide if it's a current-form power ranking, or a best-on-paper list. If former, then someone like Forman is above Ballinger. If latter, then not.

If best-on-paper, Penney, Ervin, Redhage and go from there. If on current form, Redhage, Ervin, and tough to get it perfect after those guys.

Got it in one Isaac.

I deliberately didn't decide that Isaac because heading into the rest of the season, both what players have done so far and what they are clearly capable of doing will contribute to the impact they have for their team.

I am not overly interested in power rankings because players like Martin, Petrie, Saville, Bruton and Crosswhite are super valuable for their team but don’t necessarily produce massive stats. But I am pleased to see the discussion being generated (that’s why the articles get written), would like to see some other people produce a top 15. Not easy to do in a league as even as the NBL.

As for anon, how many top 20 countries have all their best players playing in their national league? The USA and Angola are the only ones I can think of, while Spain, Greece and New Zealand are the only other ones I can think of that go remotely close. To only have 10 guys out of the league is pretty good for mine.

Agree wholeheartedly with Isaac on this one.

As for the top 15 list produced by Paul, he is contributing positively to the league (and this site as already pointed out) with his articles and comments. In a similar way to what Boti does with his written pieces, he has promoted a discussion about the NBL. That is a good thing. In fact it is a very good thing given where the NBL is coming back from.

Paul also makes some excellent points on other national leagues across the globe.

Our best players are earning serious money on some of the best teams in Europe, if not the world. Ingles at Barcelona, Maric at Panathinaikos, Nielsen at Olympiakos, Jawai at Partizan and of course Bogut at Milwaukee. All are bonafide starters and contributors on their teams right now. Most of these guys are on more than US$2 million per year.

As for 7 years from now, we have some outstanding talent coming up through the ranks, both in the NBL and overseas (NCAA). We have far more up and coming junior talent than the very few names you have listed Anon.

why is anonymous saying we need to pay more for the local talent that are playing in europe but saying the league should downgrade to a regional competition? i cant see joe ingles leaving barcelona to play for knox or dandenong.
why would other teams follow the dragons in getting 'the best coach, who got the best team. they entertained'.. that's why they weren't around the next year

Anon I'll bite

Its because of owners like the South Dragons owner that elite basketball in the country was the mess it was.

Dragons, Kings, Bullets ... all used your model of spend big. Won championships, but no fans, no loyalty, no long term survival. All gone.

36ers did it as well won a few championships, destroyed a State Association and have had 3 owners in 6 years.

May win Championships but makes a mockery of the League, League rules and the sport in the process. Tigers did it and survived but barely and look at them now. Playing out of a 3,000 seat Netball stadium, charging $50+ per ticket.

Basketballers play in Europe because that's how the mind of an athlete works. They want to play at the highest standard they can against the best players they can. NBA is #1, Europe is #2. There is no way Australia can compete with that.

Comparing basketball to Rugby in this country was also interesting. Union, how many of Australia's best are going overseas these days? Union doesn't even have a National League. Isn't played in 4 states of Australia. Internationally is played by Commonwealth countries and France. Countries that play Union total maybe 5% of the world's population.

Basketball is played in over 250 countries around the world. Including all the biggest populated countries apart from India (who play Cricket, and that's it).

Are you surprised that there's more competition and therefore more options for basketball's best when looking at those numbers? But yet Australia is somehow failing for producing basketballers whom can compete with the best in the world.

NRL (NSW & Qld) and AFL (Southern States) totally and completely dominate the sporting market. There is little room for any other sport. Count the number of pages, even in their off seasons dedicated to AFL and NRL. Cricket (which gets little interest outside the Ashes), Tennis (gets minimal support except during January) and Netball (large participation numbers, almost no media/corporate support) are all traditional "Aussie" sports that are struggling to hold their ground in the sports market.

AFL will soon sign a $1 billion TV rights Deal. That deal will go back into its AFL clubs, State Associations and more importantly Marketing, Corporate Relation building, Media Buying and most importantly Grassroots Programs. No sport, none, can compete with that. NRL are frightened of the AFL's money and power and its push further into NRL strong states. Participation numbers are low but the AFL's money will increase its corporate dollar share in those states. That in turn will hurt the NRL. Even the NRL can't compete with the AFL but somehow you expect basketball to compete.

Basketball's problem was it did things very well in the late 80's and 90's. But with no long term plan and with a limited management and budget. AFL, Netball, Soccer, NRL, Cricket have all implimented programs first introduced in Asutralia by the NBL and Basketball Australia. Why do you think Cricket chased and secured Mal Speed for example?

All of those sports have more money, both government and self created then basketball could dream of. So basketball got pushed to the background while the power of the dollar pushed AFL and Co to the front page of every paper and their school programs became the standard in every primary school across the country.

Last of all is soccer. The current media and government darling of the major sports. One man, Frank Lowry has delivered soccer a platform in this country that no one else can. But wait ...

A-League soccer has jumped on board with your model. Private greedy win at all cost owners, Clubs losing millions of dollars a year, no sustainability, big spending on player salaries. And the result? 100s of Aussie's still play in Europe and one weathly benefactor is using his own money and power as well as the money and power of his company to support an entire competition.

How's that working out for soccer? No FTA Deal. 2nd Smallest indiviudal game crowd in 5 years of the League was last weeekend. NBL clubs wouldn't accept figures as low as Gold Coast and North Queensland get in the A-League. And the Gold Coast Club owner is one of the richest and powerful men in the country.

Once the Media is bored with soccer, which may happen sooner rather than later based on the World Cup bid result, and the AFL and NRL start to seriously fight back, soccer in Australia will have to deal with the same issues basketball has for the past 10 years. A slow regression back to second class citizen.


You're model doesn't work. We tried, it nearly destroyed men's elite basketball in this country.

There's a lot more I could respond with in particular NBA vs NBL and the fact no one outside the 15-30 year old males care about the differences but I've said plenty already.

Basketball in this country can do everything better. There's room for improvement in every aspect of this sport and how it's managed in Australia. But it has to be done realistically and not as you would suggest or have us believe it should be.

Geez Nix 30, that was an almost perfect post.

Anon, you talk about sponsors like the NBL is in a position to choose who they attract.I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond. The AFL gets top-tier sponsors because they get huge amounts of attention. NBL gets Hummer or Phillips briefly because they can't be all that picky in comparison.

You might as well be complaining about the AFL teams not having the same salary cap as NBA teams, that's how much sense you're talking.

Our U19s came fourth in the world last year. That fact paints a very different picture to what you are painting.

Soccer is dying in Australia at the moment, it is going through what basketball went through not so long ago, dwindling crowds, clubs being bailed out at the last minute, massive overspending.

BA is about building stability and with that comes credibility. A big spending approach could work but it could also spell the end for the sport. That is too big a risk to take.

The NBL currently has one of the highest average attendances of any pro league in the world, is in the minority with a FTA tv deal, and is a quality product where players move in and out of this comp to quality Euro comps and perform at the same level.

Yes there are things to improve, but the way to do that is steadily, not through grandiose schemes that are most likely boom or bust.

Almost three quarters of the NBL is 27 or under, and the Tall Blacks showed that talent from this league is more than competitive on the world stage.

Let's keep the steady progress going.

I think paul has done a great job at even attempting something like this knowing that it would only be criticized by so many anonymous posters. But like he said, and I agree, it has sparked a great discussion and debate, which can only be good for the game.

We would all have slightly different picks for whatever reasoning (myself, i tend to agree almost exactly with Isaacs changes) But it is no different than having a little niggle with mates about why your favourite player is better than his favourite player and so on. It can only be good for the game, and i think it's a great piece, and he has done well to get so much talk about it.

For me; Penney, Ervin, then redhage my top 3.

That is going with the current+past form formula.

Anon do you also believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?

Did you not understand the point?

You compare Collingwood with its 50,000+ members, $100m+ turnover, 80,000 attendance per game, Eddy McGuire as President, history, its place it the Melbourne marketplace, its media power etc etc to basketball. Really? And you wonder why I had a go at you?

You simply live in fantasy land.

We can't just create an NCAA style competition and have it succeed. Where are the fans going to come from? Where's the money to start it up coming from? Why would a NAB or Westpac or BHP or whatever put money into a sport with a very small supporter base?

Of course we'd love to be the equal of Collingwood/the AFL but even if Bill Gates funded the NBL, WNBL all State Associations and BA as well as employed the best sports management people in the world we would still not get close to the power of the AFL.

The South Dragons did do a great job of intergrating with grass root levels associations and promoting the game in Melbourne. However the business model they used meant they lost millions and were not able to remain financially viable. Not exactly a great overall example and certainly far from a perfect model. If it was perfect they would still be with us today.

Crowds of 3000 compare very well with European crowds including the prestigious Euroleague competition. even then they usually max out at around 6000-7000.

Soccer is facing major issues right here and right now. This is a fact. Their crowds are dwindling and teams are struggling financially. Same situation the NBL was in - and I repeat was.

Nothing wrong with Andrew Gaze looking after himself financially either - he has a family and has every right to make a living. However he continues to be the face of basketball in this country. He coaches juniors, he commentates the NBL and is now joining Overtime on OneHD. He is on the BA board, is on Melbourne's SEN radio virtually every morning ensuring basketball gets a mention...the list probably goes on. Personally, I think he does a great job of promoting the sport IMO.

Out juniors continue to do well on the world stage as Paul pointed out. And for a country of our size we bat well above our weight.

And whilst there are plenty of things the NBL can improve on as everyone has pointed out, I think they have far fewer holes that need plugging than those that can be found in your flawed argument...

Anon, your reading comprehension is poor. Everyone agrees that the Dragons got out there, had a great brand and did some things right. But you continually overlook the issue with some of the things they did costing them millions of dollars. Any team in the league could lose money and get 9,000 crowds but take a shortcut by paying people to be there!

I do not disagree with many of the said NBL top 15 positions, but, it has also been stated that no one can stop Gary Ervin, and not to take anything away from his playing ability, but if you had watched the Hawks V Taipans game then you would have noticed that DD did actually take Gary out of the game most of the time ... hence helping with the end result. DD definately held him down in the first half ... refer to stats ... and only when DD left the court for some reason, did Gary score big in that third quarter, DD came back on court and Gary was held again in the last quarter. DD scoring stats are not so big because he is always sharing the ball, he is an incredible player to watch, and very disciplined, and he can shoot a big three and I mean big. I saw him a few years ago playing for the dragons and he came off the bench as a development player and blew the game apart. I am looking forward to seeing what the rest of the year turns out for him .. well done DD.

I was flicking through a very old magazine the other day, they had the Mazda Cannons, Mitsubishi Wildcats, Converse Saints etc. They were/are big companies that wanted to be associated with basketball back in the day.

I was scratching my head wondering where they had gone, but there is just so much competetion for the corporate dollar its not funny. It's all about exposure.

Then have a look at the top 15 players as recently mentioned and it's a bit like a vicious circle, no sponsorhsip money to afford the players, can't get the players can't get the coverage, can't get the coverage can't get the sponrorship money....

We're in a horrible state but not as bad as two or three years ago. Give Sengstock a bit of due, we're back on free to air tv. Maybe it's the organised and responsible re-start we had to have.

Umm... just to get back to the original topic. Here's mine based on current ability (eg not just 2010 form).

1. K.Penney
2. J.Khazzouh
3. G.Ervin
4. S.Redhage
5. A.Ballinger
6. M.Worthington

The rest: Nevill, Ubaka, Martin, Loughton, Homicide, Saville, Forman, Petrie, Schenscher.

Close: Bruton, Gibson, Freeman(with the right coach/refs), Knight, Davidson, Abercrombie.

You lost me at "Mike Sheahan", Paul. That list may stir up some controversy (for those who even read it any more), but it makes him look like a complete idiot every year.

Not sure that many would join you in putting Freeman even near that list.

I don't think so either. That's why I clarified it. I'd say his numbers per minute would already nearly be worthy of a top 15 spot. Get him in the right situation with refs that don't want him dead and he'd be up there IMO.

I know you have high hopes for him, but he hasn't scored in double figures for five games. 11% from 3P. More TO than assists. 6th in scoring on his own team. He'd hang his hat on his rebounding but even that is 18th in the league. Fouls are part of the game and something dealt with by every player in the league.

I'd include him in the "NBL's Top 15 players needing to adjust to the refs" thread, but not here even with the fouls caveat. With 9 teams, a top 15 is not even the top two per team. Once you've taken out the elite tier (Penney, Ervin, Redhage, Khazzouh) you still have some strong names (Bruton, Worthington, C Williams) to get through before it gets difficult with Loughton, Ubaka, Petrie, Ballinger, Schenscher, etc.

"Fouls are part of the game and something dealt with by every player in the league."

Come on now, don't tell me Gary Ervin gets this treatment. There is no doubt in my mind that the refs have their favourites and those who have obviously pissed them off somewhere along the line.

When I put him close to the top 15, that's just my perception of his ability, he certainly hasn't done anything to prove he is a top 15 player to this point.

I think the expectations on Freeman from fans were unrealistic. I dont think he has ever played in a league as good as the NBL, so he was only ever likely to be an energetic role player.

As for this earlier comment by anon - "No other sport has gone through what Basketball has and is about to.
3000 people to a national league game is woeful. Pick soccer come to an Adel game or Victory or heart game.
A lot more than 3000 people."

The latest Heart crowd was 2700. Soccer blitzed when the A-League started behind very expensive promotion and a great ride from the media. Right now though, I'd prefer to be in the NBL's shoes.