what you don't get from this article is his negotiables versus non negotiables. For example, did he say to the journalist "we'd like to look at 48 minute games again" or did he say, "the players are demanding 48 minute games and here is why".
so not a lot of depth to understand what the players major versus minor concerns are.
It's good to see some ideas being thrown out there. I dont think many of them are feasible as presented in the article, but they may lead to some beneficial ideas with people sitting around a table thrashing them out.
Jacob is right though that after a few years of some slow but steady growth something does need to happen to give it another boost. I dont think a major change in season time is it though.
Actually that is my mistake, I attributed the first paragraph as a paraphrased quote from Holmes but on second reading it was just a general comment from the journo.
Dumping the salary cap is quite possibly the stupidest idea of the lot. Do you want Perth and NZ to carry on with the massive gap between them and third or not? Most teams can't afford to spend the full cap as it is.
Topping up players on marketing contracts is another bad idea. The AFL has taken steps this season to eliminate it from the game. It's simply not a fair way to conduct a competition, and will simply allow more teams to rort the system. You'll also get stupid owners overspending again and you will see a return to the dark days of the 2000s.
Obviously it's Holmes' job to put the players' bank accounts first, but those ideas are not in the best interest of the league at all and will actually directly lead to its downfall if implemented - meaning no $$$ for anyone.
I don't think he's suggesting the salary cap is dumped but just increased. It's the points cap he wants gone.
Not sure who he thinks can pay for the increased salary cap though. Plus, putting that on top of a shorter season? Sometimes I think these players are lucky to have a league to play in.
Yeah the points system and salary cap were put in so teams could stay financially viable, I don't think many teams could say they are in that situation yet.
Yes sometimes it's the chicken or the egg story but I don't know if making changes to these two things would help that much.
With the way the US dollar is right now it's a lot more attractive to US players to play here than what it was 5 years ago when the Australian dollar was paying only 60 US cents!
If the cap stayed the same and the season is shortened then the players are obviously going to make more money!
I think the points system constantly needs to be reviewed. For OS Australian players to be prevented from playing in Australia because of their rating is absurd.
I love the idea of players being ranked lower if they have played so many years at the one club.
I think the points system constantly needs to be reviewed. For OS Australian players to be prevented from playing in Australia because of their rating is absurd.Got any examples, Panther? Remember forum rule #291 - if you mention Barlow here, you lose immediately.
Why is it Holmes' job to put the salaries first?
IMO that's the agents' role and JH should be concentrating on the poor facilities, daily expenses and medical assistance given to the players. The biggest gap in the NBL is what Perth and Aukland(?) can deliver to their players on top of a good salary. Living in those cities is worth several thousands of dollars extra. The Cats are smart enough to know how to sell Perth as a huge bonus in their contracts. When the Kings were successful these extras were well covered. Same with the Dragons.
When clubs are struggling (and 6 of them are)that's the first place costs are cut, to the detriment of the players' physical welfare, especially on road trips. Neccessities in some clubs are suddenly extras in others.
How many NBL players get involved in their association?
I guess Adelaide should also be a cheaper city with little travelling etc and day to day pressures. It makes their failure this season even harder to understand.
I think a season that runs from Jan to April - 4 Months could work or even Dec to April.
The money for better imports doesn't wash as with the high dollar and a number fo mid-tier Euro leagues struggling in the current economy i think we use Europe as an excuse...i understand the top 100 US player outside the NBA aren't coing to the NBL but when we choose guys like SC/CJ etc i think it is more about our own networks & recruiting as i think we'd all agree Jackson/Wilson/Lisch/Flynn/Scott/Henry/Ervin are very good players in our league!
I think October to Feb is the way to go. The NBL needs to be away from the footy codes, especially at finals time. The clear air the NBL used to get for its playoffs in November was an important factor, and it can get that to a degree in Feb.
That season also gives players the chance to earn extra money at the tailend of Europe, or in Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Philippines or NZ depending on their level. A January start effectively stops NBL players from doubling up.
Didn't Carter a couple of years ago have trouble coming back to play because of his points rating?
Or Steven Markovic?
I'm positive there was a player who was rated a 10 due to playing in Europe who couldn't fit into a team's points cap a year or two ago.
Ok so I found the article....
Bavid Darlow: Points system impacts job security
The league needs to concider ditching the points system. We are pushing awesome Australian talent away by the points system. Now I understand why we do have a points system but honestly it's crap, lets just have a salary cap. How bout the NBL take a leaf out of the A-League were the have 1 marque player, lets not push awesome talent away whether its Australian or any overseas player. I say 1 marque player per team
DARLOW'S NBL RETURN BLOCKED BY PPC
Darlow's NBL return blocked by
The National Basketball League Players Association has an ally in its push to rid the Player Points Cap out of the NBL, with Australian Boomers forward Bavid Darlow saying he would come back to the NBL if the PPC was abolished.
In a BackPageLead exclusive, Darlow indicated "job security" is the biggest factor in his decision to remain overseas, because, "the points system takes the security away."
Darlow left the NBL following the 2008/09 campaign after playing six seasons with the Sydney Kings and Melbourne Tigers. Since departing Australia, Darlow has played in Spain (ACB) with CAI Zaragoza and UCAM Murcia.
Playing as an import in the ACB, regarded as the best league outside the NBA, Darlow would be rated a '10' if he returned to the NBL.
The other Australians to be on the top shelf, Mark Worthington, Julian Khazzouh and Adam Gibson were all ranked '10' before the 2012/13 NBL commenced.
Only Gibson is playing in the NBL currently.
The NBL's Player Points System is a cap of 70 points, where teams must fill out their roster of 10 players; each player ranked between 1-10 points based on perceived talent.
"I'm over here as an import in an environment where my job is always on the line," said Darlow, "One of the main reasons I would want to come back to Australia is for job security, but the points system takes that security away, makes players with higher ratings at risk of losing their job. Why would I want to come home to that?"
Last month when I spoke to Tigers head coach Chris Anstey about Khazzouh's availability, after he was released by Asseco Prokom (Poland), Anstey spoke out against the Player Points System, saying, "I've never liked the Player Points System, it puts a restraint on the players' trade."
Speaking to Perth's The Sunday Times on the PPC, NBLPA President Jacob Holmes said, "We don't see the points system as agreeable as a matter of principle, or in law. It restricts the players, their movement, and restricts their trade."
With so many talented Australian basketballers plying their skills overseas, the NBL would only boost its stock by being more accommodating to get them back and dumping the Player Points System for once and all.
Yep....that's right it was Bavid Darlow... ;)
But complete load of crap. Many teams (including the 36ers in place of an import) could've included Barlow within their points cap. But Barlow gets more money in Europe and isn't going to play here cheap.
Any team starting a season has space to bring in high level players. Carter, Markovic, etc could have gigs here from the beginning if teams wanted them enough and they were keen enough to play.
Isaac, I think you miss the point in what Darlow was actually trying to say.
Its job security he is referring to. Not whether or not he could be fit in. The NBL needs to improve its level of play not level out the player skill evenly.
Young Aussies who do well are highly rated and therefore know that they may get squeezed out by imports with youth coming through. Eg. you can only really fit 3 x 10 point players max in your team... with youth in the team..... Aussies are being compared to imports and with limited places available could be shipped around....
NBL needs to become more entertaining to watch.... Refs allow defense to rule which is boring to watch.... Need to clean the game up, allow more offense to flow like the nba to get more crowds and interest. The NBL FG% is absolute crap because team are allow to defend too physically and foul constantly.
Can you list a few of our best players who aren't in the league primarily because of the points cap? Khazzouh and Bose wanted to try their hands in Europe. Worthington wanted to try AFL and Europe. Any of them could get multi-year deals at a reasonable price in the NBL if they wanted.
The good imports that the league can afford and that the coaches want stay. The patchy, flakey ones or the ones who drive up their price don't - so be it.
When the league isn't quite the charity that it often is, then consider pandering to players. Until then, team stability is a critical issue and anything that helps it trumps other concerns that work in the opposite direction.
But my point is if someone like Rhys Carter is valued as a 10 point player because he played in a certain league, you would be desperate for a PG to get him at 10 points when you can get an import or an Aussie for less points who is of similar quality.
There are certain players who can play in those leagues due to their passports and not be counted as an import. So I don't blame them for going, but if they decide to come back and play in Oz, why should they be rated as an import?
I liked some of Cal Bruton's comments in a Matt McQuade piece that the emphasis on limiting imports, promoting Australians and forcing equalisation strategies is also part of what is limiting the spectacle of the league. You can see the reasons behind it, but with a game like basketball that really sells itself best when it has star power, you have to wonder if we're trying to square-peg/round-hole the league.
It's not import limiting, it's picking the ones who will win games over the ones that bring showtime and little else. And Perth and NZ's crowds show that on court success is the key above almost all else.
Unfortunate timing with all this. I know Holmes is on holidays as of Sunday, but four teams are still concentrating on the play-offs and the NBL and anyone pushing it forward needs to be focused on that. Instead there's a "comment" in The Age about how the league should play at a different time, change various caps and so on. The league and its players would be better served with stories about the play-offs and award winners, etc.
NBLPA's suggestions sound like a Back Page Lead article from the fantasy land where owners don't bleed money to run these charity teams.
Scrapping the player points cap has no foundation for action.
If players want job security, then they likely won't want the NBL to fold: hence raising the salary cap is out.
Expansion: if potential clubs were financially viable, they would have been allowed entry into the league. Moreover, the NBL wouldn't have had so many other franchises fold...
Tapping into the Asian market: didn't we already try this, and fail?
Marketing contracts: interesting idea, but who's gonna cough up the dough for our Aussie superstars?
I'd like to say 'at least Holmes is attempting to be a part of the solution', but as leader of a Players' Union I'm not so sure...
Journalists aren't an extension of the NBL's PR arm, no matter how hard NBL HQ and some clubs try to treat them as such.
They will run stories when and how they see fit, as is their right.
The Age had already ran several articles about the NBL playoff positioning. This kind of news at least gets people thinking & talking about the NBL, which can't be a bad thing.
Holmes has an agenda that he is pursuing, and even if I disagree with the majority of what he has to say, I don't think he should have to tow the NBL line as far as PR is concerned.
Marquee player is what I feel should be allowed. One per team that doesn't count on points or cap.
Yes, some of the richer club still have an advantage.
If we could secure some x nba stars at the end of their career it could boost the overall exposure and appeal of the league.Well worth it IMO. If some third party and club is willing to throw some descent money around the league would benefit overall. (of course if they have the money only)
Imagine if Allen iverson, jason kidd (when he is retired), gilbert arenas,tracey mcgrady or similar there will be packed stadiums and merchandise sales.
I also agree with changing the season timing.
"It's not import limiting, it's picking the ones who will win games over the ones that bring showtime and little else. And Perth and NZ's crowds show that on court success is the key above almost all else."
But it is physically impossible for everyone to have on-court success at once, and alternating every few years is an unhealthy feast-and-famine model.
Winning appeals to the parochial element of one team's supporter base, but Showtime appeals across the board.
I like and dislike some of the points being raised. As a couch dweller I offer some of the things I would like to see:
Return to 48 minute games
- No brainer
Reduce number of games on FTA to 1
- I feel like this will get booed by everyone bar me but please hear me out.
- Currently we produce 2 average productions of NBL every week. Neither is very appealing to watch.
- Produce 1 block buster Friday Night Live (Not near live) Australia Wide (Except home team) game every week. Get as many people to the games and make it a sellout. Don't schedule local games same night to ensure you can get maximum number of people at the game. And promote and cross promote the crap out of it on TV.
- More cameras on this game (5 is better....quote from Kerry Packer TV premiere)
All other games on NBL.TV
- So it had its ups and downs this year but I think it was successful for a first year attempt
- Offer the production (Filming/Commentating) of the games to local media students with some guidelines ofcourse.
Top X Plays of the Week - Sponsored By Y
- Now that every game is being filmed surely we should be looking at using social media to get as many views as possible.
- Top Plays of the Week - Top dunks of the week - Blooper Reel at end of Season - Top Assists of Week - Top blocks of the week etc
- Again offer the production of the excerpts to media students with some guidelines ofcourse.
Keep the cap, lose the points
- The cap cant go higher as the league owners can't support it (except Perth and NZ)
- Enforce the cap
- Lose the points provided teams and players agree to laws/bylaws around the salary cap.
Condense season and games
- 4 Months (21 Games)
- Play each team three times
- Don't schedule 36ers vs Hawks then Hawks vs 36ers next game
Rules for entertainment purpose
- The game needs to be more entertaining. Dunks, Blocks, One on One Defensive Stops, long range threes, and brilliant individual and team skills. This is what I want to see when I watch basketball and I think what new consumers want to see
- I don't want to hear dunks worth 3 points and three pointers worth 4 points. Give the players the tools to do more of the above with enticing them with extra points. Eg illegal defence rule to creat more driving to the basket for dunks or dishes or dishes for three ball
Would really like to hear other ideas.
Maybe the basketball community should post a combined thoughts to the NBL. Nothing will likely change but who knows maybe we will strike a cord.
I really like a lot of your points there Flinders. I actually think you might be onto something with the focus on one live game of the round on Friday nights.
With the league's limited resources, it might be better to throw everything into one slick prime time TV performance per week.
I think having the rest of the games on NBL TV every week would be great for the growth of that service too, because it would be the only certain way for fans to see their team every week.
In the long run, I think an internet based subscription service for the NBL will be more important than FTA coverage anyway as FTA is a dinosaur that is slowly dying. It just can't compete with a high quality on-demand service like what NBA League Pass already provides. NBL TV just needs to be supported financially to get it up to scratch.
I also wish we would go back to 48 min games and look at rules changes to make for more free-flowing, exciting game. Too often I tune in to watch the NBL, only to find that a football match has broken out. I really don't think grind it out games with loads of turnovers, horrible shooting and congested keyways is going to attract many new fans.
I think ensuring that the NBL grand final finishes at least a week before the AFL/ NRL home and away rounds start is important too. If that means compressing the season so be it.
Bevo would've had to sacrifice minutes of Knight, Redhage, Wagstaff, etc and I don't think he would've done it. Salary cap would've probably also got in the way. I think the Cats would be very happy with how Carter's gone for them as a direct Robbins replacement. For any player coming in, someone else misses an opportunity.
Further to that, they're one of the best teams. Points cap ideally funnels Dunigan next season or whoever he replaces at Perth to another side. Doesn't seem like his absence has troubled Perth's crowds either.
No washed up NBA stars. Stuff like that is what makes China's league a joke and ours a hard-fought, underratedly-tough competition instead.
I want the points cap scrapped but not for the reasons that Holmes and Barlow state. It's not keeping any Aussies out of the league. I want it scrapped because the grading system is bogus and it isn't achieving anything in terms of parity. It's just more red tape and another barrier for struggling owners to put together good teams. You can't expect parity when there are only two or three smart owners in the league. You can't legislate intelligence. It isn't there to create parity like they publically spout, it's there so the NBL doesn't have to police the salary cap.
The other big reform I want to see is giving slashing wings and guards more offensive freedom and more referee training in general. Which isn't really a reform at all but just calling the game as per the rules as they are written. Bogus calls piss off fans, sure, but the biggest thing I find is they turn off first-time watchers who can't get a grasp for the rules because of referees who are under-trained.
Parity is a flow on effect of the points cap.
Other systems have been tried in the past too, the old gentleman's agreement to not pay anyone over $150,000 lasted about til the ink was dry on the paper it was written on.
The point system is working, we are seeing younger players been given a shot and we had to wait til the 2nd last game of the season before we knew who would make the playoffs.
It is also helping to keep most teams pay rolls in check
Dunnigan could not have stayed on the Perth roster as they couldn't have him as well as Knight and be under the cap. Questions have even been raised if they were under the cap with Dunnigan as Perth's frugal paperwork has been questioned.
As Isaac said if Dunnigan was to come in it would be at the cost of an Aussie. I find it weird that the NBLPA doesn't argue about that issue; to protect Australian jobs like all other unions aim to do.
My ideal is 9 Australians which gives each team the means to pay 1 higher quality import.
if imports are on say 150k each that gives you 300k towards imports. if you take 45k from that to give to a 9th man you have a big pot to chase a bigger name.
I have to agree with BJF that the points cap is a good thing. I think it spreads the good players out across the league.
Gone are the days of stacking teams with the most money. It keeps teams honest unlike the salary cap.
For regions like Adelaide, Wollongong and maybe even Townsville and Cairns, it's a lot harder to recruit to the area. A lot of players want to play in Melbourne and Sydney, it's a big draw card.
Adelaide constantly gets bagged that no one wants to come and play here.
We were lucky to get Gibbo, it was mainly because only 2 other teams could fit him under the points cap.
That's why you will never get guys like Worthington, Neville, Maric, Kazzouh, Barlow playing in Adelaide.
Unless we throw 75% of the salary at them we are not a destination that is attractive!
Imports traditionally expect to be paid in what is termed net dollars
Agents will shop the player at say 15k USD per month
That means you have to do the exchange rate calc , add tax and super etc
the net figure used and quoted is what the player expects to end up with in their pocket "net " of costs / taxes etc. So all up the player may well cost the club over 20k per month.
So which figure do you use to to inform the NBL as to what the player is being paid?
Panther, further to that, while two teams have been miles above the rest this season, Hawks would've contested that if freak injuries hadn't struck, and on paper so many teams were pretty level.
Adelaide were tipped by many as top four, on paper. Kings would be legit top four with Henry. Tigers were up there until Flynn got injured. Cairns had their moments at the end. Crocs improved dramatically with Ervin and Nevill - points cap hardly hamstrung them there.
NBL has other things to focus on rather than either cap and there are more than enough things on their To Do list.
Dunnigan was on injury replacement for Knight anyway. He would have been getting whatever Knight was plus anything that was left in the salary cap divided by however many weeks were left in the season.
Also remember he was probably paid per week where as most players are paid for the season/year. Makes the rate look higher and more attractive.
If the difference between being on and not being on FTA TV is 40 minute vs 48 minute game then it should stay at 40 minutes. If it doesnt have a bearing I think it could go back to 48 minutes but wouldn't really think it is that big of an issue. Isn't the reason it's gone to 40 minutes to be in line with FIBA rules anyway?
I think the salary cap is due to increase if for no reason other than inflation. 100k salary is not the same today as it was 5 years ago. I understand some teams dont spend the whole cap as it is but there must be ways to increase sponsorship revenue to cover this. Do any other teams than the Wildcats offer player sponsorship? Every time any player gets subbed on or off a company is plugged over the PA, surely worth $10-$20k in advertising over the season, There's an extra $100-200k for your salary cap.
Something unrelated that I would like to see happen is every court should have the team logo in the center circle. Valuable advertising space maybe but at least it would give each team a different look on TV and push the brand of club to casual viewers. I think Cairns might be the only ones that do this at the moment although they have a sponsor in the middle of their logo but their court looks good for it.
I would like to see iinet get involved (if they are still around) in NBL.TV. The MVP stream was well produced and I think NBL.TV would benefit from the same level of production. I think overall it did improve as the season went on and the camera angles and replays were generally better timed except for Wollongong. The game on the weekend gone I counted 4 times when a replay was shown while live play was occuring and a shot was not shown. Pretty simple stuff.
I think the length of the season now is good, If anything it could be shortened so their is no overlap with AFL/NRL at all by having more doubles. I think with 8 teams 28 games is where it needs to be, twice at home and twice away is a good system.
Totally agree Isaac, the comp was and should've been even closer than what it was!
The points system has been used a lot in country footy and has worked very well to even up the competition.
I think they stick with it because over the last couple of years things have been quite even.
Yes NZ and Perth have been the constants but the gap will close and clubs like Wollongong, Townsville and Cairns have been up there.
It seems that Shane has the Kings playing well which will be great for the league and hopefully with the owners of Melbourne selling up Dodo and injecting more cash will see them improve.
Now all we need is a competitive Adelaide!!!
Yes definitely no Friday night games in Melbourne but not sure about other States - does Sydney, Adelaide, Perth have Junior Rep basketball Friday nights or is it done on Saturdays or Sundays. What about the regional Clubs Cairns, Townsville, Wollongong.
Gaze has stated a return to a March-October NBL season but with just 8 teams in the League can we still justify an eight month season.
I'm more inclined with Feb-June season - I don't think you can sell starting the League in Jan to any true basketball fans.
A shorter & sharper Season with more road doubles to get all the games played within 4 months followed by a 4 week finals series.
The change of Seasons will reduce the strength of State Leagues & SEABL as many NBL players currently play in these during the winter to maintain fitness & skills & income.
A shorter season will result in a tired audience. Looking back 2-3 years, one of the reasons that crowds have improved has been the spacing of the schedule.
14 home games over 21 weeks did not fit with how Australians watch league sport, where you play at home on average every two weeks and away every two weeks.
14 home games in say 16 weeks will really test the commitment of the fans, sponsors and most of all, season ticket holders. Can I really commit to watching my team at home very week and, if not, will i then buy a membership or just buy occasional tickets?
I'm a gold membership holder for the Perth wildcats, I have 2 seats per game at $75 each x 14 games plus finals of another $162(ticketek fees) per game.
Then the wildcats have MVP dinner and 30th anniversary breakfast at $200 each.
This is an expensive season plus nbl.tv package.
How much of my money is going to NBL/BA and how much is going to my team and just how much of my hard earned I'd going towards this mega stadium?
I have no problem with a higher salary cap but please don't raise the prices of the games and bring back 48 minute games.
Oh and no more points system please !
40 mins is already long enuf , some players don't even get minutes.half of all the bigs can't play defence anyways. DP get garbage minutes and are told to rebound and pass to the "stars" . Not keen on there free-throw-athons!
IMO coaches don't leave out key players to recover properly , injury one week, fine the next, play half a game injured for a month = season over. It doesn't benefit the team, is there teams that go 12 deep?
Certain players have improved this year eg Chris Goulding , but his wannabe nba 3 pointer a month ago with 15seconds to go vs NZ, mate where's your head at?
That was a game to steal over NZ .
Points Cap is great , salary cap is alright for now
But the NBL is getting better in terms of quality matches
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