Pauly B
Years ago

VJBL VC Finals

VJBL VC Finals start this friday night. Who are the favorites in each age group, boys & girls?

Topic #32471 | Report this topic


Ashke  
Years ago

U16 Boys - Knox
Res - Kilsyth

U16 Girls - Eltham
Res - Geelong

U18 Boys - Waverley
Res - Frankston

U18 Girls - Dandenong
Res - Southern Peninsula

Reply #433790 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Geelong U/16 Reserve girls are super strong, also the Geelong U/16 Reserve boys are top of ladder and favourites for mind (smacked Kilsyth 64-43 in round 1).

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VP  
Years ago

I wouldn't rate Reserve Finals as VC - more like consolation finals. Not much better than VJL1.

Didn't the Geelong U16 Reserve Girls lose last Friday - can't be that super strong could they!

Reply #433845 | Report this post


Ashke  
Years ago

Yeah wouldn't say they are super strong, but will still get the job done

Reply #433850 | Report this post


red87  
Years ago

Would not consider Geelong U16 girls a certainty. Lost to Altona and only beat Dandy2 by 4 - who only had 7 players.

Either team could take it out.

U16 Girls VC would see Bulleen as favourites - only dropped one game this round to Dandy. Eltham, I believe, still have injury issues.

Reply #433862 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

VC was once two Divisions (Ash and Watson) from memory, major difference now is that 10 teams miss out on playing in Championship, bottom 5 in each of those old divisions now make up what they call VC reserve.

Sometimes a team might just miss out making VC by percentage, so suggesting reserve is little better than VJL1 seems harsh, not only on the teams in reserve, but also those in VJL1 IMO...

Original thread is asking about VC finals, last time I looked it was called VC and VC reserve, so fair enough to talk about both I would think.

Reply #433866 | Report this post


red87  
Years ago

Bear, you are right on the mark.

Reply #433868 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Will anybody get close to Waverley in the 18-boys?

Reply #433875 | Report this post


Alpha  
Years ago

With Deng Adel on his way to the US, it will be interesting.

Reply #433885 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Oh, I missed that news, yes if Waverley lose their top scorer it may present an opportunity come the final, is he going to college or something?

Reply #433893 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

VC Reserve "champs" is really the 11th best team.

Reply #433896 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Bear. How do they split the teams? Is it just straight top five/bottom five from each conference? Do all 20 sides play each other once before the split? seems unlikely but what i am getting at is what if one initial conference is much stronger than another?

Reply #433899 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

@anonymous, no one is denying the fact that VC is the top 10 teams of the competition here, but what is your point with such a comment?

The VC Reserve is called 'V.C.' which stands for Victorian Championship. All 20 teams start in a VC pool and play half the season against each other.

Some teams end up in a tough pool, some have injuries or other hurdles along the way and end up in 6th position so they play in reserve. They could be unlucky not to be in VC in many cases, but the structure is what it is.

If the VJBL wanted to abolish this concept they could start with the top 10 teams after grading, call it VC and have 5 VJL levels below it (no reserve)??

As I have tried to explain, it is about keeping some history and respect for the ASH/WATSON format that recognises the top 20 teams in the state, nothing wrong with that I would think...

Reply #433900 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

@HO, what happens is from grading they split into two pools of 10 each for 9 games and the top 5 from each pool ends up in VC. Then they play another 9 games and finals to determine the winner.

Not the fairest if your team is in a really tough pool I guess, but really no other way I would suggest of doing it.

Grading is long and arduous, sorts out teams for the most part, so the top 20 earn their chance IMO...

It is a way of recognising the top team in VC, whereas in the past there were two top teams in each conference, so this was the VJBL's answer I guess!

Reply #433903 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

its obvious you guys dont coach in VC and the VJBL or you would understand the ranking system and how the positions are decided. Please dont pass comment on something you dont understand or pass judgement on a comp you dont coach in.

Reply #433907 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Oh, my bad it's actually spelt ASHE & WATSON...

Draws are up for elimination finals and qualifying finals matches. There will be some cracking games, at some interesting venues!

Nice to see the VJBL are re-scheduling some games so the players heading to the AIS this Thursday can still play with their teams upon return next Sunday etc...

Reply #433908 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Please, anon', go ahead and explain the complexities of the matrix, as I have only tried to cover the post grading phase, but you seem to believe have a better handle on all things VC, so we can't wait for your complete analysis...

Reply #433909 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#433907

I love attitudes like yours. Completely stupid. I bet you like all of the following statements as well:

- don't have an opinion on whether Gary Ablett is the best footballer in the AFL because you have never played league football
- don't have a view on climate change because you were never here when the climate was not changing
- you can't support gay marriage because you have never been an unmarried gay person

Do you get this? Bear and others are explaining a system - Bear is not trying to be a smart arse or slam anyone... what he has written seems reasonable.

You do not have to be "in the system" to have an understanding of it. I presume you will not vote on September 7 because you cannot possibly understand the intricacies of every issue in the election because you are not an economist or can never become a pregnant? Why not contribute to the discussion in a sensible way?

Reply #433918 | Report this post


Alpha  
Years ago

Adel received a scholarship to attend one of the high schools in the States. He left this morning.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/melbourne-teenager-deng-adel-lands-us-basketball-scholarship/story-fni0fit3-1226703071382



Bear summed it up nicely. The only thing that is fairly vague is how these 20 teams are divided after the grading - I guess there should be a system for this too. And yes there is a possibility that one conference may be tougher than the other like what happened this year with top three teams going into the finals coming from the same conference.

Reply #433921 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Thanks for the article @Alpha, I hope he goes well at High School over there, I'm sure he will impress a few scouts.

I believe after the grading phase the teams are placed into either pool of VC according to their record and win/loss ratio from grading matches.

Not sure of the exact process, however it appears the teams to first qualify are split evenly and the following teams also split evenly between the two pools until we get the final number in each.

Hope that makes sense...

Reply #433925 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"The VC Reserve is called 'V.C.' which stands for Victorian Championship"

No it's not called "VC" - it's called "VC Reserve", which you indicate in your sentence! VC is the top grade, and the top grade only. It's like the ridiculous "gold medals" given out for the team that comes 13th at 14 nationals. It's pandering to 2nd tier teams/clubs who aren't at the upper end of the elite.
VicMet basketball has gone downhill severely since it's top grade went from (I think from memory) 12 teams out to 20. It's not like Ashe/Watson has been around forever! Went from tough games every week to blowouts. The current system is good, it reduces it - the 2nd round for the top 10 is pretty ruthless and extremely competitive - every game means something.

Reply #433933 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

VC 16boys- Melbourne
Reserve - Kilsyth
VC18-boys- Waverley but Melbourne and even Dandy on a good night have a sniff with Deng Adel now out of the picture.
Reserve- Frankston Maffra or Sandringham if at full strength have had very few games with decent numbers due to injuries.

Reply #433943 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Well, thanks for clearing all that up anon' it is much appreciated.

VC 16 boys will be a shoot-out between Knox and Melbourne I think, wait and see on that one.

VC Res 16 boys may prove to be between three teams, Kilsyth, Coburg and Geelong as each of these teams have held their own during the season. Geelong being the stand out, defeating both of the other two who struggle to cope with the combination in height and run of the Supercats...

Reply #433945 | Report this post


Pauly B  
Years ago

I think the VJBL need to have a look at how they determine the 2 pools of 10 after grading. Last year's U16 girls and this years U12 girls were both heavily lopsided coming out of grading. I'm sure there's plenty of other examples as well.

Reply #434010 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

My kids have played in VC comps over the last 5 or so years. I often hear people mounting cases about the strength or otherwise of the two VC pools but they always seem marginal to me. The top teams make it though to the championship, never seen one miss out.

Reply #434014 | Report this post


Pauly B  
Years ago

My concern with the lopsided pools is more to do with the teams that get through at the bottom of the weaker pool. They usually go through and proceed to get spanked every week. The idea of splitting the pools after the classic was to try to have more competitive matches with the better teams playing each other and less spankings. I also can't imagine it's much fun for the team getting spanked to have to go through that for the next 9 weeks either.

Reply #434018 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Good point, seen plenty of that!

Reply #434019 | Report this post


Ashke  
Years ago

Agree with last years U16 Girls example, only really Melbourne in pool 1 and then pool 2 had Bulleen, Knox, Diamond Valley, Eltham and Southern Pen who all finished in the top 6. Pool 1 didnt really provide any other strong teams other than Melbourne.

You then had Bulleen 2 who missed out as they competed in Pool 2 with the stronger teams, but would have been more competitive than most others from Pool 1 who made it through.

I am sure it happens plenty, not sure about how you would go about fixing it though???

Reply #434101 | Report this post


BB  
Years ago

Girls u12 VC will be out of 4 teams - Knox, Bulleen, Nunawading and Dandenong. All 4 teams have beaten each other at least once. It's a real close comp. My tip though is Knox. They have by far the tallest team I have seen and will be very hard to beat because they can also play.

Girls u14 VC will be out of Dandenong and Knox, with Altona as the roughy. Altona don't have any height but they have the best 2 guards in the competition.

Reply #434108 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Good to see we are back on topic.

U14 Girls VC is wide open, any of the top 6 could easily win, depends who turns up on the night so should be interesting.

Reply #434111 | Report this post


Alpha  
Years ago

First two games played

U18 Men Melbourne def Dandenong by 18
Knox def Diamond Valley by 25

still unconfirmed.
Knox doing fairly well considering a very short bench.

Reply #434201 | Report this post


Worker  
Years ago

VC Champ:
12 girls - Knox
12 boys - Melbourne

14 girls - Knox but wouldn't count out Altona, Dandenong, Bellarine
14 boys - Melbourne

16 girls - Eltham or Bulleen
16 boys - Knox over Melbourne in the GF

18 boys - Waverley or Melbourne, can go either way
18 girls - DV on a hunch, could go any way with multiple teams

VC Reserve:
12 girls - Broadmeadows
12 boys - Eltham or Mornington

14 girls - Either Bulleen team or Ballarat
14 boys - Eltham or Knox

16 girls - Geelong
16 boys - Kilsyth, Geelong or possibly Coburg depending on the night

18 girls - Southern Pen
18 boys - Dandenong 2, Melbourne 2 or Sandringham

Reply #434451 | Report this post


Go for it  
Years ago

Agree with most of them except u/18 boys VC Reserve. Framkston should be in the mix

Reply #434452 | Report this post


Worker  
Years ago

Whoops

You're right Go for it. Frankston is definitely in the mix for 18 boys reserve. Very interesting mixed results between the top 4 of 18 boys reserve as well. Will be interesting to see who comes out on top

Reply #434463 | Report this post


Ashke  
Years ago

Melbourne knocked out in the first round of finals in the U16 Girls, did they have injuries? Or just beaten by a better team on the night?

Reply #434491 | Report this post


VP  
Years ago

Very few major upsets - most higher ranked teams got the win on friday.

Reply #434497 | Report this post


Go for it  
Years ago

Bulleen out of U/18 girls, a bit of an upset?

Reply #434520 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Ballarat 16 VC Res boys got home by 5 against Geelong with the help of a tech and an unsportsmanlike in the last 30 seconds. Referees should not determine the result of finals very poor reffing and very soft calls at that time of the game at Werribee. Totally ruined it for both teams what could have been a great game.

Reply #434543 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sounds more to me like Geelong were undisciplined.

Reply #434555 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Here's what actually happened, you can make up your own mind based on the fact that it was intense and scores were level with 30 or so seconds left in a final.

Geelong player makes a spin move and gets a travel call so he bends over a slaps the court in frustration. Previously several worse things let go but this was called a tech and 2 points plus possession gifted by refs. No swearing or anything just frustration, is a warning enough here?

Geel now need ball so refs should know they will foul on inbound to put player on the line. Player goes to opponent with ball and no heavy contact is made, more like arms out in bearhug motion to make suer foul is called.

Foul is called an unsportsmanlike when so many heavier fouls were ignored including one where a player was pushed in the back out of bounds earlier in game.

Another 2 points gifted to Ballarat and the ball back with only seconds remaining, how is that in the spirit of the game?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

1) Slap court = Tech according to points of emphasis, Refs have to go by instructions they're given if they want to get a good evaluation.

2)If there was no genuine play for the ball and it was a bear hug as you described then sorry but that's an USF, weather its the first min of the game or the last.

Its important as a coach or player, especially at junior level that everyone understands even in the last few play phases if you are going to foul you make sure you're making a genuine play FOR THE BALL.

Reply #434574 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What is a push in the back anaon, player has ball and is just shoved out of court with no play FOR THE BALL as you put it?

3rd qtr 7 fouls to nil before one is made the other way!! Easy calls missed too.

Consistency would be nice. It isnt about the refs it is about the game and maby some bleeding comon sense.

Reply #434575 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You sound like a disgruntled parent of the losing team.
As you already know blatantly shoving someone in the back is an USF.
No where in the rule book does it state the foul count needs to be equal both ways.

Consistency is the ultimate wish but as everyone knows mistakes are made. At U16 level the players make plenty of mistakes, id imagine the officiating would be of a standard no too dissimilar to what the game warranted, you wont get SEABL std refs on U16 VC reserve.

Reply #434580 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think the point was that officials should let the players decide the outcome anon.

Reply #434583 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So throw the whistles away and let them do as they please?
The players did decide the outcome, nobody made them break the rules.

Reply #434590 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gee, didn't know Geelong has such sooks!

Reply #434597 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The problem with officials in your case anon is your inability to accept that they can get it so wrong that they spoil a good game, for both teams.

It doesn't matter which teams are involved as this is just an example of a situation, what matters is that your referees and their supervisors think they can continue to justify their lack of awareness for what is happening in a game by hiding behind the fact that they can't be criticised by anyone. How precious!

Kids deserve better, the result is irrelevant, it is the way it was decided that is the issue so if you have a comment about the post stick to the point it is trying to make.

Reply #434655 | Report this post


Worker  
Years ago

It's finals. Slapping the court in frustration to a call should not be a tech foul as long as the player doesn't follow up on arguing the call. Of course the Geelong player wouldn't have been happy but what else was he supposed to do? Passion of the game right there in my opinion but I do acknowledge the fact that in the way he did it may have constituted a tech but I really don't see it as one if there is no follow up argument, seen it many times in U/18s

A play for the ball is a must to get a normal personal foul....It's not the pros where simply grabbing them will do the trick. End of story.

I agree 100% with anon ^ I have witnessed very good games over the years but to only be ruined by calls made which dictate the end of the game. It's a shame to see because both teams know someone has to lose but when their fate is dictated by the refs, of course they don't like it. The kids really deserve better

Back on topic.

It seems Melbourne 2 and Maffra (18 boys Reserves) played on Sunday with Melb 2 coming out on top by 11. It will be interesting how things play out there. Frankston v Sandy will be a treat to watch and Maffra shouldnt have a hard time with Kilsyth.

Keilor in 18 boys Champ could be in a bit of trouble should Knox come out guns blazing.

Sandringham in 14 girls Champ have been knocked out alongside Melb. Sandy was a shock to see go down to LaTrobe. Could be anyone's game right now for semis. Altona shouldn't have too much trouble with DV and Dandenong could be in for a surprise with LaTrobe.

Reply #434660 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Semi Finals time:

U16 age group:

Boys VC

Hawthorn v Sandringham
Eltham v Diamond Valley

Boys VC Res

Geelong v Knox2
Coburg v Werribee

Girls VC

Dandenong v Knox
Sandringham v Southern Peninsula

Girls VC Res

Dandenong2 v Nunawading
Hawthorn v Bendigo

U18 age group:

Boys VC

Keilor v Knox
Dandenong v Eltham

Boys VC Res

Frankston v Sandringham
Maffra v Kilsyth

Girls VC

Diamond Valley v Nunawading
Melbourne v Frankston

Girls VC Res

Nunawading2 v Sandringham
Broadmeadows v Diamond Valley2








Reply #434981 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Semi finals continued:

U12 age group

Boys VC
Dandenong v Bulleen
Hawthorn v Nunawading

Boys VC Res
Hawthorn2 v Werribee
Altona v Broadmeadows

Girls VC
Bulleen v Melbourne
Dandenong v Hawthorn

Girls VC Res
Eltham v Collingwood
Broadmeadows v Nunawading2

U14 age group:

Boys VC
Kilsyth v Bulleen
Hawthorn v Altona

Boys VC Res
Blackburn v Ballarat
Warrandyte v Werribee

Girls VC
Dandenong v Latrobe
Altona v Diamond Valley

Girls VC Res
Frankston V Geelong
Bulleen v Nunawading

Reply #434983 | Report this post


Worker  
Years ago

My tips for semis.
Finals time is always interesting! Never know what happens in these games with seasons on the line! Good luck to everyone playing tonight.

U 12

Boys Champ
Dandenong
Nunawading

Boys Res
Hawthorn
Altona

Girls Champ
Bulleen
Dandenong

Girls Res
Eltham
Nunawading 2

U 14

Boys Champ
Kilsyth
Altona

Boys Res
Ballarat
Werribee

Girls Champ
Dandenong
Altona

Girls Res
Frankston
Bulleen

U 16

Boys Champ
Hawthorn
Diamond Valley
It's a shame that Altona weren't able to step up to defend their U 14 Champ title.

Boys Res
Geelong
Werribee

Girls Champ
Knox
Sandringham

Girls Res
Nunawading
Hawthorn

U 18

Boys Champ
Keilor
Dandenong

Boys Res
Frankston
Maffra

Girls Champ
Diamond Valley
Melbourne

Girls Res
Sandringham
Diamond Valley 2



Reply #435083 | Report this post


Alpha  
Years ago

Getting closer to the end of the season. The preliminary finals games were played last night. I watched U18 VC boys, huge upset by Eltham over Waverly and almost the same by Knox against Melbourne - lost it in the last minute.

Anyway, the GF pairs:

U12 boys VC - Hawthorn : Melbourne
VC(r) - Eltham : Mornington

U12 girls VC - Melbourne : Dandenong
VC(r) - Nunawading 2 : Dandenong 2

U14 boys VC - Melbourne : Dandenong
VC(r) - Eltham : Knox/Blackburn

U14 girls VC - Altona : Bellarine
VC(r) - Bulleen : Geelong

U16 boys VC - Melbourne : Knox/Hawthorn
VC(r) - Coburg : Geelong

U16 girls VC - Bulleen/Knox : Eltham
VC(r) - Altona : Nunawading

U18 boys VC - Melbourne : Eltham
VC(r) - Frankston : Dandenong 2

U14 girls VC - Melbourne : Dandenong
VC(r) - Southern Peninsula : Geelong

Reply #436084 | Report this post


Alpha  
Years ago

By trying to make it easier for me, made a mistake, the last pairs are U18

U18 girls VC - Melbourne : Dandenong
VC(r) - Southern Peninsula : Geelong

Reply #436085 | Report this post


Go for it  
Years ago

Gee, Melbourne in 6 out of 8 VC finals.

Reply #436086 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Melbourne have done a fantastic job over the years recruiting everyone else's talent.

Reply #436087 | Report this post


Worker  
Years ago

Melbourne providing very good representation in VC grand finals as usual, kudos to them. Melbourne 18 girls had a scrappy win against Knox despite being the much bigger team and Melbourne 2 18 boys lost a tough one to Frankston 1 down at the State Centre, some very interesting calls made throughout.

Anon, what can you do about Melbourne's 'recruiting' strategy? I mean this all started with the 14 boys group in 2010 where Melb 2 comprised of the majority of the original U/12 VC team. They are in 18s now and look how well Melb 2 did, lost the prelim in VC Res, if anything credit to them for that. It's all competition now so rather than criticise the past, just let the teams battle it out with the teams they have.

Reply #436093 | Report this post


hogwash61  
Years ago

Worker - incorrect. Get your facts right.

Melbourne U14-2 of 2010 had 4 kids from their U12 VC team of 2008. There were 3 that made it to the U14-1's. This can and does happen at other clubs as well, especially at that age group with some kids maturing early.

One player of the U12 VC 2008 team stopped playing.

Of that original U12VC 2008 team:

4 remain at Melbourne
1 moved clubs
3 have stopped playing basketball

I doubt that these figures would be vastly different for other clubs. Kids change, some improve, some plateau, some fall out of love with the game, some parents get tired of the politics, expense, travel, etc. All experienced at other clubs also.

Of that 2010 U14VC team:
7 remain at Melbourne
2 stopped playing
1 changed clubs

Again, probably not a lot different to other clubs.

The VJBL rule implemented at the end of 2010 (2 new players per team) supposedly to prevent super teams and Melbourne's dominance looks like it has failed.

Melbourne are still strong and this is 3 years later??

Reply #436239 | Report this post


Worker  
Years ago

@hogwash61

Do understand that I was not attacking Melbourne's actions over the past few years, in fact I agree 100% with what you have said. I apologise for not making myself clear with my previous post.

To answer your question about that particular Melbourne group being so strong 3 years later, simply put, those players want it. The majority of them clearly want to be the best players they can be. Many of them still being there 3 years later, 3 of which have been with Tigers since under 12s mind you, shows their dedication to the sport. With all the talent in that group having been earned opportunities to represent at State and National levels have been the factor to the vast improvement of their team mates. You could almost send that group to represent the State and you'd still get great representation from them. As you said, the same can be said for other clubs with the plateau of some, the loss of interests of others, etc. I am a big fan of that tigers group who haven't made a State team but still show their dominance in their age group. They have earned the respect of many.

To get back on topic, there is another post regarding the Grand Finals this week, let's all just enjoy some great match ups.

Reply #436335 | Report this post




 

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