annonymous
Years ago

Olynyks hold on Love - Celtics V Cavs

https://vine.co/v/eWrlZJABvh7

Hope the NBA slams Olynks for this. Pushing his right arm down on Loves Shoulder and humorus, he then reaches in with his left and grabs loves wrist with control and appears to give a quick pull and then withdraws his left arm still very controlled. I am very very suspicious this was an intentional attempt to injure. The mechanism is very specific. No matter who you follow and which team you don't like, there is no room for this despicable behaviour on court and should draw maximum penalty and time penalties. I would like to see new rules regarding grabs drawing more regular calls of high penalty rate. The rate of shoulder injuries from holds is way too high and rarely incidental.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Ridiculous to suggest this was deliberate.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

KL was holding kelly off the ball, they lock arms and it pops. Once that happens i think you can see kelly pull away towards the end when he either hears Kevin yell or Realises he is hurt.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

There is so much of this wrestling and arm tangling in basketball these days that officials allow, it is getting worse and worse. I see it at juniors from about under 16 or 18 age group onwards.

Why do officials allow players to grab hold in the first place? Why are players allowed to push and elbow from behind? The officials are wrecking this game for the skill players!

I am not saying the officials are to blame for this injury directly, I am saying the way the game is heading we had better start getting familiar with these injuries.

As for what Olynyk did at the point of injury, it looked to me like he caused it, whether intentional or reckless does not matter, there is no need to grab a player's arm like that!

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annonymous  
Years ago

55 and 62, obviously Cavs haters. You have to be completely blind or bias to not see the deliberate nature of this. We will wait and see the review as Cavs are pushing it all the way. Olynyks is no slouch in the intelligence stakes and he knows exactly what is going on and not the kind of guy who has lapses. He is very aware and always has been. Going for the ball there is no reason at all for that left hand to reach in and grab and twist when he is restraining Loves left arm with his right and pushing down. Keep arguing and trying to tell me how ridiculous I am but you will not change mine or many others minds. It's like the dot pictures where some people see the hidden picture and others don't no matter how long they look or try. It's all in the will of the brain, you either have the ability to see stuff or you don't. But you will be the ones getting angry, I am not I invite discussion not aggression so have a nice day..

Next we will be discussing if Issiah Thomas really was behind LeBron and interfered with the inbound pass that turned over. Issiah was laughing and couldn't believe he just got away with that. Hilarious and really quite ridiculous in a playoff series in the best league supposedly in the world.. Funny as..

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The dudes a basketball player not a surgeon. No way he knows the exact way to dislocate someone's arm. Sure he shouldn't have held so long but absolutely not deliberately trying to dislocate an elbow.

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Hoopster  
Years ago

Wowwww watched this a few times and saw nothing. Came onto this site to start a new thread and ask people's opinions of it. Then watched it again after reading what people have read and unfortunately I have to agree. Looks shocking when you know what you're looking for

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Bear  
Years ago

I don't like it one bit, it isn't basketball to me...

Reply #526283 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What was olynyk trying to do if he wasn't being intentional? Very cheap shot. If it was Metta World Peace he would be booted from the league.

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annonymous  
Years ago

76 - he is from a basketball family and been around it all his life. you can not tell me he has no idea about injuries, how they occur and recovery. Every player at this level knows. They are educated and experienced. The teams at college level are educated about their bodies and surrounded by professionals who help them take ownership of their bodies health and understanding. It is professional sport. Are you an Essendon fan and think Heard is innocent as well ???

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Hoopster  
Years ago

I know how to roll my own ankle but wouldn't have a clue how to grab someone's ankle and roll it for them. He definitely knows about injuries but I doubt he knows how to inflict them on someone. That being said, the shoulder is like a basketball sitting on a plate in terms of its anatomy and it's very easy to dislocate. I doubt kelly tried to do it on purpose but it did happen and he needs to be punished even if it was an accident

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I know how to roll my own ankle but wouldn't have a clue how to grab someone's ankle and roll it for them. He definitely knows about injuries but I doubt he knows how to inflict them on someone. That being said, the shoulder is like a basketball sitting on a plate in terms of its anatomy and it's very easy to dislocate. I doubt kelly tried to do it on purpose but it did happen and he needs to be punished even if it was an accident

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annonymous  
Years ago

Betting when Olynyks is charged he will then come out and apologise as there is no getting away from it and it makes him look like a bad guy. Lets hope he just did something stupid and we don't see that again from him... or have we..

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Hoopster  
Years ago

Not sure how someone used my username there but wasn't me. Olynyk definitely in some trouble. Interesting to see if it affects the celtics chances of picking him up in free agency IF he leaves. Big if of course

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Anonymous  
Years ago

There's a difference between:
- Using 'illegal' (in terms of basketball) means to gain an advantage.
- Genuinely trying to hurt someone.

There's no question Olynyk wasn't legally trying to get the ball. It's quite obvious he was trying to pull Love out of the way. But to then suggest that he deliberately tried to injure him, and especially to that extent, is just absurd

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annonymous  
Years ago

In wrestling they use this hold and twist with the aim to flip the opposition. In basketball you are not going to flip them so the shoulder will rotate and pop.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It looks like he had a brain fade. He got entangled with Love and unfortunately popped his shoulder out. It wasn't like he walked up off the ball, slipped his arm through and yanked his wrist. It's similar to boxing out, trying to pop someone in the chest and breaking someone's nose by accident. So guilty for reckless play, not guilty causing harm with intent.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I think we've found some pretty handy candidates for the AFLs match review panel in this thread.

Reply #526315 | Report this post


annonymous  
Years ago

No entanglement about it, it was a hold and restraint. Yep, not AFL and I would love to be on a review panel. I would clean up the game and bring back the skill to the game.

Reply #526316 | Report this post


Hoopster  
Years ago

Let's be honest pretty much anyone could improve the current AFL review panel

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Anonymous  
Years ago

This holding habit is getting out of hand - and this is what can happen.
Go to a Big V game this year and you will see defensive players holding all the time.
Two hands are constantly placed on offensive players off the ball. When they make a move they are held.
These injuries will become more common as the offensive player moves and is held - the resulting pressure will cause more of these incidents.
When will the referees wake up and put a stop to holding off the ball - I am sick and tired of incidental contact that has no impact on the game being called as fouls when blatant holding off the ball is allowed.
There is no place for unskilled defenders illegally holding. They can't defend good offensive players legally. They turn the game into an ugly boring slog.

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annonymous  
Years ago

29 - I agree. We all need to remember that peoples lives and health is being played with and not necessary int he interest of the game. To me it doesn't enhance it either, I would rather see some great footwork and hands at work than this contact a illegal according to the rule activity.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I love how OP says "it doesn't matter who you support" then the first two people disagree with him so he questions who they support......and then rants about some other crap for a dozen posts.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

If cavs want this type of thing stamped out of the game then how about they hold the same standards for Perkins and Smith. Their acts were low blows, especially Smiths, and didn't need to happen.

So if they want they type of play dealt with why don't they suspend those two?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with the above posters about the bigger picture here and how appalling our local officiating is in the holding and pushing by defenders, especially in the paint.

When will our referees be told to stop warning defenders all game and start blowing your FREAKING WHISTLE!

You know guys, that bloody thing hanging around yer neck??

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Definitely looks like a slight second movement to yank... as the shoulder pops. Its basketball, heat of the moment stuff, but clearly its what caused the shoulder to pop.

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Hoopster  
Years ago

This ^. I didn't see it at first until I came on here and read about the second movement. Until then thought it was just holding going after the rebound and an unfortunate accident. Still don't think there was malice or the intent was to dislocate the shoulder but it doesn't look good.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Doesn't look good no matter how you look at it.

Puts a dampner on the playoffs because the West finals will be the finals. Why even bother with the East now.

GSW in 4 for a complete blowout finals.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

My pick at start of season was memphis so I'm sticking with them. They had offensive weapons and a great interior and perimeter defender.

As much as I hate to say it don't count out clippers also. Please Spurs knock them out!

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Tornado  
Years ago

Nothing in it. Both fighting for a loose ball and locking arms...remember we are watching it in slow motion

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Tornado, if that was the case why did the NBA just suspend him for 1 match? Nothing in it my arse!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Love pushed off then you see Kelly tries to grapple but his arm slips down and the grab goes onto the lower arm creating the weird angle, unfortunate incident.

Could nearly argue love was fending off illegally, just a basketball incident. Dont let them grapple so much and the issue is gone.

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Big V  
Years ago

This was very intentional. Maybe not to dislocate but to injure. Should get 20 weeks.

Reply #526396 | Report this post


Good Ol Days  
Years ago

intentional my ass....honestly....whoever thinks that Kelly Olynk purposefully meant to dislocate K Loves arm, is a lunatic....or hasnt watched KO play before , ever. KO is constantly rebuked among Celtics fans for being too soft etc etc...Context is everything, Love clearly had KO in an arm hold at the start of the play. Love does this all the time to secure rebounds. KO tried the same thing and when the ball go loose KO (stupidly) tried to pull Love away from the ball. Accident , end of story.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Not the end of the story, the story is that players are allowed to hold, grapple and push. Where the hell do you find that in the rule book?!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Grappling etc is all part of the game. You obv have only just started to watch basketball recently. Have you ever played basketball? If you had either watched or played basketball at a reasonable level, ever cut through the key, or if you had ever defended a post player, you would know that this grappling takes place all the time. Have you watched the play from beginning to end? If you had you would see that Love had KO in an arm lock at the start, Ko did the exact same thing but decided to tug on loves arm to prevent him from getting possession. Again, accident end of story. If you Think there was any malice in that play what so ever you might as well go live with tinker bell in never never land.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon^ please find the rule that allows grappling in the FIBA rules for Basketball or in fact the NBA hybrid, when you do your argument will be vindicated.

Until then please give my regards to Alice in your little wonderland!

No one is challenging what happens on court and the way the game is being played, what some are saying is that the rules are not being officiated accordingly and this is the result.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

499 who said this - Have you ever played basketball? If you had either watched or played basketball at a reasonable level, ever cut through the key, or if you had ever defended a post player, you would know that this grappling takes place all the time.

You must be either an official or a guard, you have no idea mate! Everyone know what is going on, the point here is should it be going on?

Reply #526503 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#503 - I agree with you - we all know that grappling/holding goes on - but my question is - when did the FIBA rule come through that allows holding?
Referees need to stamp out this blight on the game that allows sub standard defenders to hold and hamper offensive players that they can't guard within the rules.
How many times have you heard a referee warn a defensive player - you hear them time and time again saying "Don't hold! Don't hold!"
Just blow the damn whistle and make the call - you don't hear them warn players with "Don't charge, Don't block, Don't travel, Don't double dribble, Don't carry" - no they just blow the whistle and make the call.
Blow your whistle referees - when you see a hold - just like any other indescretion that you blow your whistle for!!! - guarentee that you will only need to do it a maximum 2 times before the cheating defender changes his/her illegal behaviour

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Holds are more dangerous and risk of creating injury in moving situations than most other indiscretions so should also draw special attention as intentional on the drive to the basket in air time. Put the bans and costs upfront and make them big to make a statement that from here on in, holds will be penalised heavily. This is peoples health and safety and with kids role modelling off these stars of the nba it filters through to those who are young or can not afford an injury so devastating financially and physically as they need to secure paid work in the future. Holds and slicing players down on the drive are seen regularly at junior level and should be stamped out. This is not footy and players chose basketball and part of that is the supposed clean game it should be.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm struggling to think of other instances where holding someone resulted in serious injury. Fair bit of over-reacting going on in this thread.

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Bear  
Years ago

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/injuries/nba/all/

Many injuries in the NBA anon^, I am not saying I know how many are caused by holding but read the list and it becomes evident that some of the injuries must have come from contact.

Fair contact is fine, we all live with this, also accidental injury and sports related injuries will always exist.

How can we defend injuries or potential injuries caused by or at the risk of being caused by illegal play such as holding as an example.

I don't think people want the game over officiated, just call the obvious stuff and clean up the game a bit, not rocket science is it?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

While it doesnt have the same levels of physicality that football does, basketball is still a contact sport.

I think people are over reacting because Love got injured on the play. If he didnt get injured , we are not even talking about this. like i said above holding happens all the time. If you called every bit of physical contact that happens in a game of bball a foul (like you prob are supposed to in the rule book) then you would be playing netball not basketball.

to the above, in league play yep i would play guard or SF. Pick up , i play all over the court. Guard big men etc. When you are guarding some one in the paint, guess what , grappling takes place. No one trying to hurt anyone, just jockeying for position. whether it "should" be allowed or shouldnt be allowed, is not up to me. The fact of the matter is that it DOES take place.

Again, im not sure if anyone here can name another time in history where a play like this has occurred and some ones arm got pulled from the socket....should players not be able to contest a loose ball with there arms up, because Conley got a facial fracture...how about all the things that lead to injuries to players, should there be a rule against running because so and so a player blew there Achilles....no....shit happens...

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Bear  
Years ago

Anon#568^ you appear to be a very ordinary fellow with somewhat of an average IQ.

You are saying that things just happen and it isn't up to you as to what calls are made. You say that every call of contact should be made, according to the rule book and that basketball would be like netball if the right calls were made, according to those rules.

You also tell us you are a player who can play all over the court and that holding in the key is just part of the game, to get position on your opponent and that if there was no injury to LOVE we wouldn't even be talking about grappling as an issue.

My word, you have a massive grasp of the obvious and the underwhelming.

Do you honestly suppose others posting here are unaware of these facts and that this is news to us all? No one is disputing the facts here, such as the fact that basketball does have contact. Legal contact is exactly that, no one wants changes accordingly.

What is in dispute is that these types of injuries are not necessary and the action which caused this injury is not within the spirit of the game, nor is it in the rules. Injuries will always occur in all manner of sports, we don't however need additional risk due to reckless or unsportsmanlike behaviour.

You say you are a player, fine then, go an play hard, play tough, defend in your cylinder and pressure your opponent, enjoy the game and shoot the ball! If you want to grapple, please take up Judo or wrestling, it may be just the sport for you!

Enjoy...



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Anonymous  
Years ago

"You say that every call of contact should be made, according to the rule book "

No he didn't.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Aaargh, yeah, he did in context.

'If you called every bit of physical contact that happens in a game of bball a foul (like you prob are supposed to in the rule book) then you would be playing netball not basketball.'

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Anonymous  
Years ago

He said IF, not that it should be.

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Messy  
Years ago

He does appear in slow motion to push down on shoulder joint and then lock hard at elbow and pull forcefully at same time. It wasn't grapple for the ball he knew he wasn't winning it.

Intentionally trying to dislocate shoulder? No intention usually indicates premeditation.

Reactionary dirty move yes, he gripped and yanked if you call that grappling what ever!
Basketball not MMA - grabbing and wrestling to allow players free movement on court is the whole reason for the call illegal screen. etc off ball blocking fouls. NBL worst for it. Rules are offensive charge No? Blocking foul Yes am I wrong?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

thanks for the attempted insults bear.

i did say that things happen and it isnt up to me what is called in a game. thats true. I cant control what a ref calls in a game that i play in. I definately cant control what refs call in an NBA game.

The arguments you and some others above are making about contact and "doing something about grappling" etc make it clear to me that, no ,you dont understand what takes place as far as grappling goes in a basketball game. Hence my need to spell it out.

If grappling wasnt in the rules then it would be called, wouldnt it? maybe its under establishing position or something. All i am saying is it happens. People generally dont get injured by it.

This was an accident.

No it prob wasnt in the spirit of the game for KO to pull Love away from the ball.

However the grappling part prob is in the spirit of the game. Just goes with the territory. its never with the intent to hurt anybody or do "judo". just to get position.

Like i said if you want to stop everything that will lead to an injury in sport it would be a pretty boring activity to play and or watch.



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Anonymous  
Years ago

That is the point anon^, it was illegal contact. Why can't you see that?

face palm

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Anonymous  
Years ago

i can see that him pulling the arm was "illegal contact"

but the grappling part i cant see a problem with.

Nor was the play intended to hurt Love.

Some people above have a problem with the grappling and are also saying that it was intended to injure. i am saying it wasnt.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

#674 above - you just don't get it. What is the difference between grappling and a holding foul? Where is the line drawn? Grappling is holding so the referees should make the call. Doesn't grappling impede a player from going where he/she wants to go on the court - just like holding does!

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Bear  
Years ago

The NBA has just released news on Kevin Love's injury. His surgery was successful and he should only miss 4-6 months.

Yeah, let's let then grapple all game at the risk of surgery and a 6 month stay from the game, great idea, not!

My problem is and always will be that the officials allow holding far too often. Yes anon^^ we all know it goes on but the common theme here is that most people don't want it to go on and when it is illegal or dangerous it needs an appropriate response.

Olynyk gets one week, where is the parity?

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annonymous  
Years ago

Olynyks - i didn't do it I surrender arms say it all.. 1 week is not parity and he should be penalised heavily. Love now has a long term shoulder issue to manage as well as the immediate recovery. If he had not pushed down and pulled the arm with his other then it would have been grappling and no injury would have occurred. That is the point. The 2 actions have caused injury. Olynyks was never going to get the ball and pulled Love away from it. Not within the tule or spirit of the game. His stupidity bell went off in his head and he reacted by pulling the arm. Intentional yes, preplanned no, but he did it, despite his best Bart impression...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Those of us who have played know how hard it is to employ the skills necessary to catch the ball and dribble it while attempting to make some move to score or create play. Even those of us who have coached or watch the game closely understand the level of balance and skill required.

This is not an easy skill and with the pressure of a defender covering your point of attack or reaching out and upwards with hands to block the ball it makes it harder still. Secondary help will also make it harder again.

In the key you have limited time and officials will sometimes be reminded by your opponents that you are taking more than the usual 3 seconds to do something with or without the ball, especially if you tend to dominate games due to your size and or skill.

Defenders don't have to worry about travelling as they can move any which way and the ball isn't hindering them as they don't have to worry about it. They are not however permitted to push, grab, hold or slap you as far as the rule book is concerned.

Defenders should slide, hold their ground and play in a vertical cylinder to apply pressure and if they have the chance or the athleticism they can block your shot attempt or even try to strip you of the ball. All this can be done legally, within the rules.

Unfortunately I see too many times, here and on the TV that a defender can in fact lock arms, they can push from behind, they block the run of the player making a cut in the key and they can pull a player out of the way or hold them hindering opportunity and breaking their balance.

(I am not even going to expand on other illegal tactics and the issues created by continuous elbow throwing, standing on toes or jabbing into a player's lower back).

What all this does is not seen immediately, it is not deemed to be problematic to officials or anyone who doesn't know what the end result will be over time. Players become frustrated and do something that eventually may be called as a tech' foul or unsportsmanlike. Games can get out of hand and of course injury is a risk!

It shouldn't get to this stage and the officiating is largely to blame, unfortunately. I have spoken to officials here in Australia about this behaviour and even some referee coaches who monitor and teach officials during games.

Unfortunately their opinion sometimes includes comments like, 'they are big boys and they like it rough.' or 'They are big enough to take a hit or two.'

What a shame this attitude exists and we can't clean the game up to a point where we can all enjoy the skill and ability young kids are being taught, but by about 16 years of age start to become frustrated and disillusioned by.

Of course some contact is necessary, I would never advocate no contact or over officiating. There is obvious illegal contact however that seems to just go by without being addressed and it is destroying the game, making kids leave the game and injuring players over long term battering or through accidental or reckless acts like the one being discussed here.

I don't know the answer or how this can be rectified, I just know what is causing the problem, why can't our referee advisors and those in power to do something about it? Why can't they see what I see, bugger if I know!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Well put above - I agree - the answer is very simple - referees make the call as soon as it starts - the defence will adjust and the illegal tactics will fade from the game. Refs - Just make the call"!!!

Reply #526751 | Report this post




 

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