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ME
Last year

#39930

NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

In recent conversations I have had with certain insiders it has become clear that the CBA is hesitant to get too involved with the NBL.

What I have heard has mirrored some of the things Boti mentions in his latest blog post, but the things I have to add is that the CBA is looking for a partner to help them improve in the admin, development and promotion side of the league. And let's face it, we've done most of those things poorly leading until now, and China knows it.

So rather than be in awe of our league and wanting to sign up to our NBL TV in droves, the CBA seems content to just send half-assed development teams to our shores and allow them to be completely outmatched by our teams. Stronger links with China than that may be a bit of a pipe dream.

The fact is, other than strong pre-season competition we have little to offer the Chinese. It is a lopsided deal whereby we leverage their country's love for the game by selling our product, and at best, they send some of their lowliest players to come here in low-paying development spots.

The league needs more tangible leverage if they're going to make this happen. We need a carrot of some sort. We simply aren't a necessity to China despite our ability to outplay them.

I also think it would be naive to think growing distrust between the two nations over the South China Sea would not have some impact on the NBL and CBA working relation, just quietly.

http://botinagy.com/blog/big-trouble-in-little-china/

And if the NBL's China goals stumble, what does the NBL have as a back up plan? Have they put too many eggs in the China basket?

Has LK and the people at the NBL underestimated China and assumed that because our talent is superior that they will buy our product in droves?

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Ricky
Last year
12:40 14 Sep 16

Reply #598994

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Early days, but a lot of good points.

I'm not a big fan atm of the idea of a Chinese team in the NBL to be honest, don't think it would work yet.

As much as I would like the injection of money into the league, not sure how many people in China would care about it even if a Chinese team were to be in it.

I'd rather stick to playing them in proper pre-season tourneys only for now.

Will be interesting to see how the ABC goes and what kind of players the Chinese teams end up sending.


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Zodiac
Last year
14:28 14 Sep 16

Reply #599000

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

I think the reason you would want a chinese team in the NBL is the potential financial benefits of say a big money chinese company that wants to expand into Australia attaching their name to that of the chinese team. Then comes the possible spin-off effects of an enhanced TV deal if not from chinese money then Australian money.

The easy problem would then be worrying about making the chinese team competitive but in reality trying to expand into China is only a good thing for the NBL.


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Zodiac
Last year
14:30 14 Sep 16

Reply #599001

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Another thing to factor in is the amount of money needed to keep the NBL ticking over is hard to find here but absolute chicken feed in the chinese financial community and with such a bigger population and basketball being much popular there than here all you need is to get a little bit lucky and the NBL could be set up for a long time.


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Dave
Last year
14:40 14 Sep 16

Reply #599002

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

I think there would be a difference between the NBL putting a new team in China rather than bring an existing Chinese team into the NBL, if that makes sense.

You wouldn't want an existing Chinese team coming over because, as the Sixers showed, the talent level is vastly different.

However if they expanded as they have with Brisbane, but the location just being in China, it would have a far better chance of working IMO.


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ME
Last year
16:07 14 Sep 16

Reply #599009

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

The China team thing seems a while off. What I am more concerned about is whether we can sell NBL TV and NBL game footage to China.


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Luuuc
Last year
16:15 14 Sep 16

Reply #599011

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Would there be any interest in China for NBL basketball? I highly doubt it.


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Isaac
Last year
16:16 14 Sep 16

Reply #599012

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

They lost their guy in China who had all the relevant knowledge (Chinese market, basketball-specific, etc) and I imagine that set them back a bit. There wouldn't have been many people with that blend of specific experience. If they manage to power through despite that, it's possibly testament to LK's tenacity or willing to spend.

I think the plan would be a Chinese-branded team that had a mixture of Chinese, local and imported players. But for it to be competitive, it'd need quality Chinese players and surely the best have their primary interests in the CBA where they can make solid money?

If they had an open chequebook to start with three top-tier ex-NBA types, the spare guys like Walker, Burston, Tragardh, etc and then some capable Chinese players, then who knows. But the Australian teams are building purely to win, not make concessions in their rotation players to specific players.

There was also some sort of plan to have an NBL team in the second-tier Chinese league? I can't see how they wouldn't clean up, unless it was maybe a youth or veteran team?


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Anonymous
Last year
22:59 14 Sep 16

Reply #599046

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Chinese basketball is crap. I have said for a long time why is the NBL obsessed with Brisbane and secondly China. Another Kestleman fail. Let's see how long Bullets, Taipans and Hawks last. Plus the Chinese experiment.


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Juan
Last year
23:32 14 Sep 16

Reply #599048

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Exactly what are the other "Kestelman fails" btw?


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Anonymous
Last year
07:10 15 Sep 16

Reply #599051

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Townsville, no long term commitment to the ownership of the NBL. Effectively no salary cap, the loss of Aussie spots, the impending loss of probably Cairns and Illawarra 3 imports aren't needed. the China experiment, wasting his money on Brisbane to the detriment of Townsville.
Good luck to him and let's hope he doesn't simply walk at the end of next season.


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Juan
Last year
09:38 15 Sep 16

Reply #599059

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

You're kidding right?


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Isaac
Last year
10:17 15 Sep 16

Reply #599066

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Townsville, no long term commitment to the ownership of the NBL. Effectively no salary cap, the loss of Aussie spots, the impending loss of probably Cairns and Illawarra 3 imports aren't needed. the China experiment, wasting his money on Brisbane to the detriment of Townsville.
Good luck to him and let's hope he doesn't simply walk at the end of next season.

Townsville's issues predate LK.
Flexible salary cap predates LK.
Loss of Aussie spots? They added an import spot to each team, plus a formal 11th man spot. Townsville out, Brisbane in.
You can't count Cairns and Illawarra just because you think they might be shaky. And Wollongong were having trouble well before LK.
What China experiment?
Why is money wasted in Brisbane but not in Townsville where the fans barely cared?


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Juan
Last year
10:34 15 Sep 16

Reply #599067

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

There probably wouldn't even be an NBL right now if it wasn't for him. Not one in such a promising state as it is now.

His stated goal was to bring the NBL back to prime time. So far, I've been confident in what he's done and said to assure us he won't be leaving at the end of next season or until he achieves this goal, which then I'd expect he'll be staying on if it's making money.

Not sure about the impending loss of Cairns and Illawara, if they can afford to bring back Jawai and Rotnei respectively, I think the funds are ok and crowds and support will follow. I think support for both clubs have been quite decent already.

With the extra import came an extra roster spot, so no, not a loss of Aussie spots. If they are good enough, they'll be in a team and a team can go with 2 imports only.

Brisbane is a major city and a sporting one at that. Had to be done.

The salary cap is similar to the NBA's, if anyone wants to go over the cap, they'll be paying back to the teams that don't. How well this will be enforced does remain to be seen.

The China experiment is a bit weird to me as far as having a team in the next couple of years goes, but let's be honest, a lot of us have been proven wrong in a lot of things since he took over not only the NBL, but Melbourne United.

It's easy to forget with so much that has happened that's its only been one season and he's probably done more for the league that anything/anyone else has in the last 16 or so years.


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Anonymous
Last year
11:10 15 Sep 16

Reply #599070

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Sydney will have 3 imports, a chinese dev player and naturalised Lisch. Just sayin


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Anonymous
Last year
11:21 15 Sep 16

Reply #599071

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

And to think just a couple years ago everyone was up in arms about the Wildcats signing Earnest Ross as an Aus player.


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ME
Last year
12:36 15 Sep 16

Reply #599078

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

I don't get what the hell you're complaining about? There's always going to be some muppet moaning when things are perfectly fine, and today that moron seems to be you.

Why are you complaining that no one was funding Townsville, when the crowd stopped caring about the team, and the NBL had spent 5+ years propping them up to no avail?

Why are you complaining about the loss of Aussie spots when more good rookies have come into the league than have for years, and the AUssies that are out of a spot aren't that great anyway or are at the tail end of their career? Newsflash - you don't get to always choose when your career is over.


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Kingpodge
Last year
15:37 15 Sep 16

Reply #599089

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Clint Dogg would have had this sorted years ago..................


I think the march into China is more about eyeballs on the TV product, that adds a hell of a lot more value to advertisers/broadcasters.
That's why the NBA has done so much work there. China aint getting a franchise and it's hardly a breeding ground for NBA quality players, but the eyeballs are vast and that's where the value is.


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ME
Last year
16:09 15 Sep 16

Reply #599091

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Yeah, but Podge, some of this is about giving the Chinese a reason to tune in and Chinese broadcasters a reaosn to sign on.


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koberulz
Last year
16:12 15 Sep 16

Reply #599092

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

wasting his money on Brisbane
You realise Fox was going to walk away if Brisbane weren't in this season, right?

Good luck to him and let's hope he doesn't simply walk at the end of next season.
I've seen this sentiment from several people, and I don't understand it. Where is everyone getting the idea he's going to walk? After pouring a ton of time and money into the league, it would make no sense for him to move on after next season. Certainly not any more than it would to move on now, or after this coming season.


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KET
Last year
16:38 15 Sep 16

Reply #599093

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Brisbane is absolutely necessary, you can't just have a major capital city market like Brisbane out of the competition.


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Anonymous
Last year
17:55 15 Sep 16

Reply #599099

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

So what has Fox got to do with anything now $5pm from Telstra is available? That's a massive slap in the face to Fox after the last few seasons.

Kestleman has only committed for 3 years. Season 2 about to start so it's time for a recommitment IMO.


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KET
Last year
18:01 15 Sep 16

Reply #599100

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

I suspect given the NBL is paying for production costs, the relationship is "we've got a product that will cost you nothing if you want to show it on one of your many channels you need to fill"


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koberulz
Last year
18:36 15 Sep 16

Reply #599103

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

So what has Fox got to do with anything now $5pm from Telstra is available?
Nothing, if you're happy with keeping the same 15,000 or so fans and nobody else.


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koberulz
Last year
18:36 15 Sep 16

Reply #599104

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Kestleman has only committed for 3 years
[citation needed]


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Anonymous
Last year
20:47 15 Sep 16

Reply #599117

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

You seem to know it all KR. Another person how has an opinion on everything here and elsewhere. As to the Fox stuff you have totally contradicted your own argument about Brisbane and Fox.
Citation. Boti. You find it. Then apologise.
You don't know it all. From the same article. Shame that he let the Crocs go. "$1m in interest-free loans for distribution to struggling clubs"
Guess that didn't occur either.


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Anonymous
Last year
20:49 15 Sep 16

Reply #599118

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Oh and "In Kestelman's original proposal, he promised expansion in the second year and best of all, if league revenue hadn’t increased to more than $10m per annum and it wasn’t profitable within three full seasons, he would hand control back to the clubs."
So expansion is the 2nd year has happened?


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koberulz
Last year
20:52 15 Sep 16

Reply #599119

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

As to the Fox stuff you have totally contradicted your own argument about Brisbane and Fox.
No?

Citation. Boti. You find it. Then apologise.
That's not how citing works.

The original deal had a clause whereby the club owners could purchase the league back after three seasons if it wasn't profitable. That wasn't Kestleman only committing for three years, that was him trying to convince them to give him the chance. No way they were going to give up that power permanently.

Shame that he let the Crocs go. "$1m in interest-free loans for distribution to struggling clubs"
I don't know what article you're referring to because you didn't bother to provide a link. Is this the first offer that was rejected, or the second offer that went through?

Not to mention the possibility that the million simply wasn't enough. Townsville wouldn't have got all of it. What they were given may simply have got them through last season.


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koberulz
Last year
20:53 15 Sep 16

Reply #599120

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

So expansion is the 2nd year has happened?
You think everyone just hallucinated the Brisbane team?


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Anonymous
Last year
20:54 15 Sep 16

Reply #599121

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

You can find it. Outta here


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koberulz
Last year
20:56 15 Sep 16

Reply #599122

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Just did, and every single thing you've quoted is from the original, rejected, proposal according to the very article you've been citing.


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koberulz
Last year
20:58 15 Sep 16

Reply #599123

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Melbourne businessman in $7m bid to take over NBL as league struggles for new direction

The proposal is believed to be a watered-down version of one he submitted in September last year which promised to write off club debts of up to $150,000, with $1.5m towards a national marketing campaign across all markets, $1.5m to underwrite new clubs, $1m in interest-free loans for distribution to struggling clubs and a goal of expanded television coverage and TV revenue sharing.


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ME
Last year
21:28 15 Sep 16

Reply #599126

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Kestleman can give it back if the league wants him to after three years, but I think they prefer the survival Kestleman has provided more than the alternative.


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Isaac
Last year
21:37 15 Sep 16

Reply #599128

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Anon, there was a second proposal after the first one didn't go ahead.

Also, money was already put into Townsville and Adelaide (I believe).


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KET
Last year
22:26 15 Sep 16

Reply #599130

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

We heard a lot about the original proposal but not much about the one that was actually accepted.

I'd imagine despite the near death state of the NBL, it would have been tough for NBL owners - particularly Perth - to give up 51% of the NBL to LK. A deal for 3 years with a requirement of profit may still have been on the table.

If that's the case, I wonder how close the NBL is to doing that...3 years seems too little to achieve that without serious accounting magic.

Given the genuine improvement we've been seeing in the NBL and no obvious taking advantage of potential Melb Utd conflict of interest, the NBL clubs would be foolish to take back the league at the moment.


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Anonymous
Last year
06:56 16 Sep 16

Reply #599132

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

AFAIK the only diff between the 1st and the 2nd deal was an extra $1mill to secure it. No reason to assume any of the other conditions had changed.
Time for some recommitment and clarification as well.


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Ricky
Last year
09:54 16 Sep 16

Reply #599136

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Just don't see the clubs wanting to take back control.. exactly who is going to put in the money and management of it? They'd be stupid too with the success so far.

Things are going very well at the moment, just let LK and team do their magic.

LK and JL like to space their big announcements and right now, it's the build up for NBL TV.

Any recommitment or change in agreement(s) with the clubs will be a long time away, likely late in season 3 or after, when the figures have been confirmed.


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Isaac
Last year
10:27 16 Sep 16

Reply #599137

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Time for some recommitment and clarification as well.
Isn't that the business of club owners? For fans, there's vastly improved marketing, a strong streaming announcement, what looks to be an entertaining season coming up, decent partnerships, etc. The difficult stuff isn't going to change immediately: improving perceptions, fixing relationships with media, and working on the TV deal.


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Manu Feildel
Last year
10:29 16 Sep 16

Reply #599138

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

I feel like informative discussion can take place without snarkiness


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swish
Last year
11:34 16 Sep 16

Reply #599141

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Looks like the future of the NBL / LK relationship will be THE big topic for forums etc as we head towards the halfway mark of the current deal.

Hopefully by the end of this season they can make major announcements to give some stability and clarity to all stake holders beyond this time next year.

As fans we can see the improvements but we have no real idea about the financial's - are the improvements paying for themselves or is LK still putting his hand in his pocket while he tries to get other businesses to see the same value he can see in this product.
Its still hard to imagine club owners wanting to take back control if LK has got the league to a point where it is generating profit for everyone and possibly harder to see them taking back control if it is still losing money, unless they have got better ideas on how to make this thing work and think they can do it without LK's financial back up.


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swish
Last year
11:34 16 Sep 16

Reply #599142

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

Looks like the future of the NBL / LK relationship will be THE big topic for forums etc as we head towards the halfway mark of the current deal.

Hopefully by the end of this season they can make major announcements to give some stability and clarity to all stake holders beyond this time next year.

As fans we can see the improvements but we have no real idea about the financial's - are the improvements paying for themselves or is LK still putting his hand in his pocket while he tries to get other businesses to see the same value he can see in this product.
Its still hard to imagine club owners wanting to take back control if LK has got the league to a point where it is generating profit for everyone and possibly harder to see them taking back control if it is still losing money, unless they have got better ideas on how to make this thing work and think they can do it without LK's financial back up.


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Dazz
Last year
19:25 17 Sep 16

Reply #599236

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

People need to remember that this isn't the AFL. There is basically no money in basketball in Australia.
The TV deal is worth billions to the AFL. It not only allows them to fund their expansion teams, and prop up others, it actually makes it profitable.
The bailed out Port Adelaide, because the Adelaide TV revenue relies on two teams. Same reason reason they plonked for extra teams in Sydney and GC.

NBL doesn't work like that. We can't even give a FTA product away.

So NO team (Chinese, Japanese, etc) is going to suddenly bring in wads of cash.
The only way they make money from "China" is if somehow we can sell the TV product to a Chinese provider.
It's not impossible, there would be sports channels looking for fill, and the market is huge. But I imagine there's also a lot of product available on the international market


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Anonymous
Last year
20:26 17 Sep 16

Reply #599238

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

You need to have a champions league type competition between Chinese NBL, Philippines and south Korea league. This will get them interested


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ME
Last year
22:41 17 Sep 16

Reply #599243

re: NBL march into China seems to have stalled.

You could probably sell the rights to the NBL to China as it stands, especially seeing as the NBL is already paying production costs.


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