Dome Rat
Years ago
Tai Wesley signs with NZ Breakers
Wesley moves back to NZ
Drmic re-ups in Adelaide
Dome Rat
Years ago
Wesley moves back to NZ
Drmic re-ups in Adelaide
Isaac
Years ago
Solid swap for the Breakers. Lose Vukona but get Wesley who was excellent for United in the finals.
mystro
Years ago
I think NZ won out of this especially as their Freethrow % just went up considerably.
Captain Jack
Years ago
Wesley in and Vukona (at this stage of his career) out is a big upgrade for NZ
Both as dirty as each other and with limited dribbling abilities.
https://twitter.com/mattlogue7/status/986392920608534528?s=19
Nice pick up for the breakers, big loss for United.
What's the go with his contract, is he an import or local? Has he/is he naturalized or just being allowed to play as a local for now?
Tribe
Years ago
Wesley, an American, we still play as a local next year. Seems very odd, but apparently hes in the process of gaining Aus or Kiwi citizenship
Isaac
Years ago
While the ruling has changed, he's been granted a concession period given his intention/action to naturalise.
Tornado
Years ago
Either you are or you aren't.
Are other players going to be granted a concession period if they show interest in naturalizing?
He'd still get a gig in the NBL as an import so this is really an advantage for any team that signs him...in this case, NZ.
He should not be considered a local for next season at all. Massive advantage for the Breakers now.
So now that he moves back to an NZ team he won't satsify continuous residency in either AU or NZ. So how does it help him long term? The concession can't be forever surely?
MACDUB
Years ago
Dammit - I got excited thinking we had got Tai Webster as my mind only focused in on "Tai W" on the headline.
Hahaha I made the same mistake MACDUB and though "WHOAH! :o" until I re-read it.
Tribe
Years ago
Whilst probable, there doesn't seem to be actual confirmation of the signing. Just a tweet from Matt Logue.
You would think Breakers are the one team he wouldn't go to since it doesn't help his AU residency requirements. Unless he has decided to go after NZ residency? But then the length of time resets since he is in AU right now.
LoveBroker
Years ago
If Tai has been granted an extension of the Oceanic player exemption whilst he is undergoing naturalisation process, can't that be scrapped as moving to New Zealand is not intending to or in line with Naturalising process anymore.
LV
Years ago
Not surprising, I predicted on these forums that Wesley would leave for NZ or Sydney. Teams with either money, or other connections.
Is his wife a Kiwi? Either way, he had at least his first kid while living in NZ, and it's probably a much cheaper- and potentially more family friendly- place to raise a family than Melbourne. And a place he's obviously familiar with.
Good on him. Well done on two great years at United.
I was hoping United would keep him since he'll remain a local. Puts the onus on United to find a good replacement I guess.
I guess if his wife is Kiwi it will be easier to become an NZ citizen so then it makes sense?
Isaac
Years ago
Are other players going to be granted a concession period if they show interest in naturalizing?If they played under a rule that previously meant they were a non-restricted player, maybe.
Thanks for the memories Tai. Loved watching you play up close for the last couple of seasons. A great player and an even better guy. Wish him nothing but the best.
Yes all the best to him, has a good game enjoyed watching him in Melbourne. His wife is American and so is he born there, lived Guam when his father worked there, probably had duel American / Guam passports.
Reality
Years ago
So every import will now "intend" to become an aussie?
I thought it was because he'd signed a 3 year deal and had a player option with United for next season.
If he moves to another club without becoming an Aussie he is an import.
Isaac
Years ago
Liam Santamaria for the NBL:
United have made it clear they are keen to re-sign Wesley but Stuff's Marc Hinton reported that their initial offer "fell well short" of what will be required.
Dome Rat
Years ago
Wesley has started the process, which is quite costly. NBL gave him assurance of dispensation so he could move forward with the process
LV
Years ago
As a side note to this conversation, if Wesley does end up signing elsewhere than United, doesn't that put to an end these suggestions that United is cashed up and willing to outspend everybody else?
He just won a championship with United. He's won 2 with Vickerman. United knows his value better than anybody. Yet, they're allegedly not willing to pay him what somebody else will. If true then this shows that, despite the delusions of many, United don't have some unlimited budget that they're using to just buy championships.
The league would cop back lash either way.
I was fine with him playing last year as it was a multi year contract signed before the changes. I'm not quite as fine with him signing a new contract as a local, but if he is naturalised soon I'm not too bothered.
I think its a smart move though by the league allowing him to continue. If the league said he had to sign as an import with NZ, it would be a bad look for the league after letting him play as a local for the LK owned team that won a championship. Would add to the whole conflict of interest debate.
You mean like Perth didn't re-sign Prather when his price was supposedly too high for them, but then they did re-sign a different player whose price was way higher? So no one decision in isolation doesn't prove anything yet.
Prather wanted the same money as Cotton, didn't get so left and took United’s offer which was Perth original offer. Melbourne wouldn’t have spent as much as Sydney last season with all the players Sydney went through.
LoveBroker
Years ago
LV logic.
United bought a championship in 17/18.
But was outbid for Wesley for 18/19.
Therefore United can't have bought a championship in 17/18.
Please go back to Primary school, you missed a few classes.
LV
Years ago
The reigning view around here is that United has endlessly deep pockets.
How deep can they be, if they let their championship power forward walk away?
Fact is, United is one of many teams with deep pockets.
Why did United let Blanchfield go? He got a better offer from Sydney.
"Yet, they're allegedly not willing to pay him what somebody else will. If true then this shows that, despite the delusions of many, United don't have some unlimited budget that they're using to just buy championships."
It means they have someone a lot better lined up... who probably costs more.
They let go of Blanchfield because he wasn't worth it. It doesn't mean they couldn't outbid Sydney. LV "logic" in fine form today.
LV
Years ago
"Could" has nothing to do with it. It's about what they're willing to pay.
LK is worth $750 million or whatever it is- United could've sign Ben Simmons if they wanted to- as an Aussie Marquee player, they could've paid him $70 million a year and gone over the soft cap?
The group who owns Sydney has deep pockets too. Shawn Marion part owns NZ- same story.
Cram
Years ago
Absolute joke that United was able to have 4 imports last season. Farcical that New Zealand will next season
Calm down Cram.
Neither team is breaching the rules, I bet you would be happy if Wesley signed with your club.
UseTaHoop
Years ago
United could still safely OFFER Ben Simmons $100 mill to play next season. It wouldn't break the bank because he’d turn it down. Just as he would’ve turned down any NBL offer.
It’s not just deep pockets that count. It’s about how the league and working in Australia is seen by players from Australia and beyond. We will never poach current NBA players, but we can recruit potential and fringe NBA types.
The NBL needs to market itself to the public and to potential players. Judging by import quality and returning locals, as well as ticket sales and corporate sponsorship, things are looking up.
Perth and NZ had the best rosters for years and spent more $$ than all and no body said jack, every team had the chance to sign who they like, Melbourne took chance on Hooley, Moller, even Barlow was a punt as did not play for two previous season due to injuries. Prather was out half the season and they still kept rolling. They won it fair and square.
Wesley is a huge loss but as with blanchfield before and now Wesley Melbourne set there limit on players and stick to it. Good luck to Tia.
"Prather wanted the same money as Cotton, didn't get so left and took United's offer which was Perth original offer."
That is not true at all.
Zodiac
Years ago
I'm pretty sure Perth asked Prather to take a pay cut to come back this season he refused and ended up signing with Melbourne for less than Perth paid him the year before.
Cram
Years ago
Neither team may be breaking the rules, but they're certainly being allowed to take advantage of the rules being broken specifically for this one player.
No, if I had a team I would not be happy with said team taking advantage of a rule to sign a 4th American.
Cram, why do you bother coming back to this site? You'd make a perfect Adelaide supporter with all the whinging you constantly do. No one wants to hear it. Move on and enjoy A-League.
Cram
Years ago
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise that discussion was limited only to those of the opinion that everything is rosey?
Not sure you understand what a discussion board is all about
D2
Years ago
There will always be the possibility of confusion when players come from "multinational" backgrounds.
But with Wesley, its actually a little clearer than most. his father is an islander, and clearly Tai identifies with his father's heritage. he spent time in Guam growing up, and has adopted that as his nationality for sports purposes, playing for their national team.
Under the previous rule, that allowed him to play as a local. he wasn't the first, and won't be the last.
(only it has now changed from Oceania to Asia.)
I have absolutely no problem with the NBL grandfathering the rule.
As for a move back to NZ, obviously it should still apply. Wouldn't be very fair if the league said "you can play as a local for any team except the Breakers."
I suspect somebody else hit it on the head when they suggested that Welsey didn't get along with Henare, but presumably likes the new guy.
And wtf any of this has to do with Prather I don't know.
Maybe I'm missing something but there’s no confirmation that Wesley has gone to NZ.
All I’m seeing is a random tweet.
koberulz
Years ago
As for a move back to NZ, obviously it should still apply. Wouldn't be very fair if the league said "you can play as a local for any team except the Breakers."He was granted an exception only because he was seeking citizenship. If he can't get citizenship, the reason for him being granted the exception no longer exists.
"I'm pretty sure Perth asked Prather to take a pay cut to come back this season he refused and ended up signing with Melbourne for less than Perth paid him the year before."
Zodiac, no.
Prather left the club to pursue his NBA goals. The Cats could either wait to see how that panned out (and potentially miss out) or pounce on another available player. The chose option B - Devondrick Walker.
A few weeks later, Prather didn't make the NBA and thats when an offer came from Melbourne, and it was a better offer than he was getting anywhere else so he took it.
^^^
Two differing opinions on this, I'm in the Perth let him go over money. If he stayed at Perth could’ve they won it?
UseTaHoop
Years ago
Tai Wesley was able to begin his career in the NBL as a local due to his status as a Guamian American.
The NBL then decided to change the "local" classification from Oceania citizens to citizens of Aus, NZ and selected Asian countries.
If the NBL had not allowed him to play, and his earning capacity was adversely effected (which is highly likely) Wesley may have had legal recourse under restraint of trade and adverse action in employment laws. As a “local”, Wesley's career will also be extended.
By playing for NZ, he is not necessarily jeopardising his chances of gaining Aus citizenship. Is he maintaining his residence of Australia and acting as a “seasonal worker” in NZ? What are the restrictions on citizenship applicants travelling outside Aus for seasonal work?
All of the above would best be answered by experts in citizenship, mployment law and immigration. For the NBL there is only a single instance, so it’s probably best not to open up a can of legal worms just to stop one player who has been good for the league anyway.
"If the NBL had not allowed him to play, and his earning capacity was adversely effected (which is highly likely) Wesley may have had legal recourse under restraint of trade and adverse action in employment laws."
He would have to demonstrate he actually lost earnings. Which teams wouldn't have signed an all NBL second team FA if given the opportunity?
As it stands, NZ are the ones who benefit here. Its a massive advantage for them.
The rule that Wesley was recruited under was a BA initiative and not an NBL rule. Wesley wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on if the NBL hadn't been accomodating
Perth low balled Prather. End of story. This thread isn't about Perth or Prather anyway, so why is it here? Good luck Tai, he is great for the league, regardless of which team he is on.
"Perth low balled Prather. End of story."
They did not. Stop discussing it then.
"By playing for NZ, he is not necessarily jeopardising his chances of gaining Aus citizenship. Is he maintaining his residence of Australia and acting as a "seasonal worker" in NZ? What are the restrictions on citizenship applicants travelling outside Aus for seasonal work?
All of the above would best be answered by experts in citizenship, mployment law and immigration. For the NBL there is only a single instance, so it's probably best not to open up a can of legal worms just to stop one player who has been good for the league anyway."
I don't know the exact details, but I know to maintain your eligibly you need to be in Aus for X amount of days a year. Considering the breakers will be playing in Aus a lot, and if he bases himself out of Australia as much as possible in the off season, he might still in the country enough to maintain eligibilty
No idea if thats how it would work though, but seems kind of logical to me.
I have it on good authority that the Wildcats did in fact low ball Casey. He was insulted by the offer and they refused to budge. Melbourne paid unders
I have it on better authority that Perth had nothing to do with it, but United's offer was too good to pass up.
Manu Fieldel
Years ago
I have it on best authority that Prather woke up one morning and said to himself 'wtf am I, a self-respecting professional basketball player, doing working for this shit organisation in this shithole with these shit people?'
Then he left.
UseTaHoop
Years ago
Plenty of good authorities known by our anons.
"Respect my authoritie" (South Park).
So United's offer was too good to pass up, after Perth had passed? Thus, United's offer was the only offer, even though it was less than Perth's, so it was either that or another country, and being that he wanted to stay in Australia it was too good to pass up because it was that or nothing? Okay, understood. Perth still passed. Melbourne still signed. Prather still a current champion.
Prather ended up with the threepeat. Wildcats struck out.
Even with prather they would not have likely won. Their aging core was worse than the previous year. Hence why if they dont refresh you can have Cotton and Prather on the same team, will still likely come up short.
I also have question marks on Gleeson ability to adjust to the faster tempo game we see today.
Correct. Gleeson seems to be untouchable though, especially on here.
Correct, gleeson is a bad coach. Doesn't mean the Cats lowballed Prather.
Proud
Years ago
I liked when an import played what was it 3 or 4 seasons in the NBL all of a sudden they were a local back in the 90s... if that were true now then Wesley has been here long enough to be a local and Rotnei and Prather are on the verge of becoming locals too aren't they ?
Isn't this the rule that allowed Geelong Supercats to have a starting 5 full of imports?
Dome Rat
Years ago
Players have only ever been local through citizenship
Proud
Years ago
I stand corrected then Dome Rat but why was it that say Perth Wildcats had naturalized Fisher, Grace and Crawford. I thought they needed to be here 3-4 seasons to be eligible for citizenship. Has there been a change in our laws that has changed that but I'm surprised we aren't hearing any "Rotnei/Prather/Childress have been here 3 seasons can they become naturalized soon" type conversation that you'd hear back in the 90s with imports like Rucker, Copeland, D-Mac, Rose etc
Fisher and Crawford played for Giants and Supercats before becoming Wildcats which may make you think they were here for a short time before becoming locals when in fact they weren't. Although good question maybe it's longer/more red tape now.
Dome Rat
Years ago
I believe it is harder to gain citizenship these days. Back then lots of guys even in SEABL ( Eric Cooks, Willie Jeanette) where naturalising. I think you could leave and come back where as now you have to stay in Australia for a solid 3 years.
FIBA also stepped in at one point to stop the Becky Hamon and Chris Kaman situations of the past
The rub for 36ers fans is of course that Kelvin Henderson wasn't allowed to play for the 36ers by the NBL despite being an Australian citizen.
Personally I think it is smart strategy for imports as their value increases and their career can be prolonged ala Dusty Rychart
koberulz
Years ago
I stand corrected then Dome Rat but why was it that say Perth Wildcats had naturalized Fisher, Grace and Crawford.Fisher debuted in the NBL in 1987 and was naturalised in 1996.
paul
Years ago
"FIBA also stepped in at one point to stop the Becky Hamon and Chris Kaman situations of the past."
I think FIBA abides by the laws of each individual country. Plenty of international teams pay an American a good whack and give them a passport to play for their national team.
That's how you end up with EJ Rowland playing for Bulgaria and Jerome Randle playing for Ukraine at the Eurobasket. Dontaye Draper played for Croatia but at least he played there for a couple of years first!
Dome Rat
Years ago
True Paul. Kaman and Hammond hadn't ever stepped foot in "their" country before representing them on court. That was my point.
PeterJohn
Years ago
Proud - the citizenship laws were changed 5 years ago, to make it possible to fast track citizenship for elite athletes. The change was made to allow Fahwad Ahmed to represent Australia in cricket, in time for an upcoming Ashes series at the time.
I don't know if this fast track process has been used for anyone else (e.g., Lisch) nor whether it's part of Wesley's process.
As posted above, NBL imports have always had to naturalise in order to be able to play as a local. What I'm not sure about is whether there used to be a further requirement to have been a citizen for 3 years before you could play as a local. I believe that used to be a requirement under FIBA rules for representation in national teams (but it isn't today)/. I don't know if the NBL used that requirement as well. Anyone else know?
Here's the requirement for naturalisation:
"People who became permanent residents from 1 July 2007 must have been lawfully resident in Australia for four years before applying for naturalization. The "lawfully resident" test could be satisfied by a student visa or tourist visa or 457 visa, but the applicant must:
- have been in Australia for 12 months as a permanent resident,
- have had absences from Australia of no more than twelve months (total) in the previous four years, including no more than three months (total) in the 12 months before applying,
- have not been unlawfully in Australia at any time in the four years preceding application,
- understand the responsibilities and privileges of Australian citizenship (except for applicants aged 60 or over),
- be able to speak and understand basic English (except for applicants aged 60 or over),
- understand the nature of the application, and intend to reside in Australia or to maintain a close and continuing association with Australia."
My layman's reading of those requirements suggest spending some time training and playing in NZ may not prevent Wesley from becoming an Australian citizen. Anyone know otherwise?
Dome Rat
Years ago
That sounds familiar Peter John. I think Davis/ Grace etc were like that and that was the rule that kept Henderson off the 36ers team
I think Perth used the law you refer to for Redhage
"The rub for 36ers fans is of course that Kelvin Henderson wasn't allowed to play for the 36ers by the NBL despite being an Australian citizen."
Why?
"Fisher debuted in the NBL in 1987 and was naturalised in 1996.
Grace debuted 1990, naturalised 1996.
Crawford debuted 1982, naturalised 1990."
and there you have it.
Wesley will probably naturalise as a New Zealander. He has spent more time in nz
mystro
Years ago
Since Wesley left the Breakers he has still played NZNBL every offseason. 1st season I think he was with Henare/Flavell & the Southland Sharks the first season and then the last couple with Braswell & the Saints.
I'm not sure if that will help him naturalize as a Kiwi being that he didn't move to Australia full time.
Very Old
Years ago
"What I'm not sure about is whether there used to be a further requirement to have been a citizen for 3 years before you could play as a local. I believe that used to be a requirement under FIBA rules for representation in national teams "
As I remember, the NBL rule to play as an Australian in the NBL ( at that time) , was that you had to be eligible to represent Australia under Fiba rules.
The NBL owners essentially colluded under an informal agreement to never support any club/player who ( as a naturalised Australian citizen) tried to challenge that rule in an australian court, either as a restraint of trade , or as a discrimination against an Australian citizen.
I cannot remember if the rule was changed because legal action had been taken, or because a legal determination had been made, or if the owners NBL board simply say the writing on the wall, or if the fiba rule had changed.
In anycase it was seen as a rule against a chequebook championship bid by the wealthier owners.
There was all sorts of rorts, a least one naturalised American played as an Australian in the NBL, while still retaining their American citizenship - through getting dual citizenship. Thius is not hearsay, They played in the 1980's and were still able to travel under their US passport in the last two years.
Cheers
Dome Rat
Years ago
As far as I remember
Coach Don Shipway took the NBL to court over discriminatory rules saying that how can Henderson become an Australian citizen yet not be allowed to play basketball in the NBL as an Australian.
The premise being that you can't be a conditional citizen, you either are or your aren't . if you are then you should enjoy the same rights and privileges as all other citizens. Still cant believe the judge upheld the NBL rule actually thinking about it.
There was a rule alluded to previously that meant that even after you naturalised you retained your import status for 3 years.
The 36ers lost and Henderson never played for the 36ers
"They played in the 1980's and were still able to travel under their US passport in the last two years."
Who? and was dual citizenship a no no back then?
Dome Rat
Years ago
at Very Old that was also a key point raised by the 36ers. Others had taken dual citizenship and been allowed to play as Australians whilst Henderson had renounced his USA passport so was only an Australian
What season was this in? So at Bankstown Bruins in he played as an import I assume?
Dome Rat
Years ago
I think it was around 1990. Shipway only coaches for 2 seasons I think and 1 of this saw the team hit by massive long term injuries meaning the needed to reach out to guys like Henderson to try make a competitive roster
You need to be a registered user to post from this location. Register here.
Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.
An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 11:02 am, Thu 12 Dec 2024 | Posts: 968,026 | Last 7 days: 754