Club of the Captians
Wildcats members are understandably livid.
I think a couple of saturday 11.30am games through the season is OK... but three in a row is rough.
Especially when you pay for tickets ahead of time and then there's such a drastic change in fixture.
Reports are the Wildcats are also annoyed at the schedule and that it's been an NBL decision.
So with the news today every game will be shown on Fox however not all live unlike last season perhaps it's time to have a look at the TV coverage compared to last season.
2 games live on SBS (Sat evening & Sun arvo)
1 game delayed on ABC Friday nights
All games like on Fox Sports
All games live on NBL TV
2 games on 9GO (live?)
All games delayed on 9NOW (Two 9GO games live)
All games on Fox Sports but some delayed
No games on NBL TV
Pretty ordinary no matter how you spin it.
ONCE again, Fox Sports Australia will be the home of the NBL, with confirmation that every game of the 2018-19 season will be broadcast on the network.
Tip-off is less than a month away — October 11 — with Fox Sports set to deliver live, HD coverage of a league that's emerging into one of the best outside the NBA.
First 2 lines, every game will be live.
OK TM, let me help you out here.
Look under, that is directly below, the Local time column and you will see Perth has 6 x 11.30am games.
Now "am" after the time means morning
So 11.30am is in the morning and before 2.00pm ("pm"is the afternoon)
So Perth has 6 homes games stating in the morning!
Also 2.00pm is before 2.30pm and they have 2 home games starting a 2.00pm
First 2 lines, every game will be live.
It doesn't actually say that it says Fox will be delivering live coverage this season which they will be just not every game.
I suspect it will be the 9GO games they're not allowed to show live.
11.30am is a joke. Bad for families and kids who are probably still playing, bad for everyone because who doesn't have something to do sat am amd bad for those that actually make it because the arena will be bloody empty and the atmosphere crap. This will hit perths bottom line big time, i would be asking the league to foot the bill for the loss this will cause
Zodiac second paragraph of the announcement LIVE in caps!That doesn't mean every game is live, though.
I imagine the Nine games will be delayed on Fox. Not a huge concern as they'll obviously still be broadcast live, just in SD and possibly with commercials.
Will pubs be open for the Bogan Army to have their predrinks before the game starts. Need to allow for 3-4 drinks plus walk to the game time.
This decision should be one in which the clubs veto it and say back to the drawing board nbl. It's a predominately night time entertainment with a few Sunday arvo’s thrown in.
Imagine if that was Adelaide’s schedule. Joey would be serving his automatic 1 game suspension for round 1
11.30am games is rough. Cricket and golf are probably the only professional sports starting earlier than that, and they require daylight and still finish late afternoon. But the NBL will in fairness still be better entertainment for perfians than the morning session at the lawn bowls.
Seriously - that is dumb for a national sport. The Lakers and Warriors don't play at 11.30am to suit East Coast audiences.
Perth have tweeted that those are broadcast start times, not tipoff times. NZ have tweeted that all games tip off 20 minutes after the broadcast time.
Certainly strange, especially given that it wasn't long ago pre-game was cut from ten minutes to five.
This is absolutely nonsensical, didn't Nick Marvin say that Perth Wildcats need to have 12000 each game to break even on the rent at Perth Arena, no way in hell are they getting that most games.
The LK group want successful clubs that can be sustainable but Perth will be playing in front of an empty stadium that will look terrible on tv and there is nothing successful about that.
Truly needs another go this schedule, I can understand why they would want to show the Wildcats but these Saturday games should be their away games. The club has built Friday nights as almost a staple in which the fans know when to attend... this will only unravel all the hard work done by the club
So if you are in the hospitality, health or retail industry.. . You're screwed as a cats member. If you're part of a famuly that has sporting commitments including the game of basketball- you're are screwed as a cats member. That leaves whoever works 9to5 weekday jobs to fill the stadium. Cats better prepare for some demands om refunds. These times are unreasonable.
Based on the references posted in this thread, I've revised Zodiac's comparison of the available screen viewing options for last NBL season and the coming season. I've focused on timing (live/delayed) and mode (free to air, pay TV, streaming):
TIMING/MODE LAST SEASON THIS SEASON
Live on FTA 2 games @ SBS 2 @ 9GO
Delayed on FTA 1 @ ABC None
Live on pay TV All @ Fox All @ Fox
Live streaming All @ NBL.TV None
Delayed streaming All @ NBL.TV All @ 9NOW
Noting this purely compares options for people wanting to watch games on screens rather than in person. It ignores NBL strategic benefits, such as additional promotion of the league by the 9 Network.
The Wildcats should be absolutely livid at the schedule. Not only have they lost their major sponsor Healthway because of the league's naming rights deal with Hungry Jacks, they now face a serious loss of gate and membership revenue with this ridiculous fixture that panders to the east coast.
As mentioned by others above, Perth held the league together during the leagues leanest recent period and this is how they are treated now? Ok they had some favourable soft schedules in the past to bring in the 12000 crowds, but you can now say goodbye to those types of attendances with this fixture.
Troy Georgiu has to step up and demand some answers - have a compromise fixture redrawn and make it a bit more fan friendly or get some financial compensation from the league to make up for the upcoming losses in revenue.
"Perth held the league together during the leagues leanest recent period"
Rubbish. If anything the dominance of the cats and breakers held the league back. why would a casual Australians fan tune in to watch one of these two teams endlessly win year after year? kudos for Perth for finding a business model that worked in the lean years, but for the league to be more widely successful things have to move on. I'm loving the fact that since LK has come in the wildcats have a far more marginal say in how the league moves forward.
CT, the Wildcats helped ensure the league maintained some kind of credibility when all the other teams were trying to survive. I also didnt really like the total dominance from Perth and NZ during that time. Dynasties of all types get boring after a while, but you cant fault Perth for the failures of Townsville, the near failure of Wollingong, the struggles from Sydney and Adelaide, and the turmoil that Melbourne were going through at the time, or that Cairns were doing their best in a small market.
One team has almost half their home games at what will be a severely effected time. The difference between 10000 and 6000 is significant compared to 6000 and 4000 in other markets. Rent on a 14000 seat venue in the centre of the city is kinda a significant factor.
"the Wildcats helped ensure the league maintained some kind of credibility when all the other teams were trying to survive.“
Get over yourself. Credibility? ten years of watching nick Marvin rort the salary cap to help a dull grubby team that nobody outside WA cared about to win is hardly credible.
They played ugly basketball - and dominating the league was getting boring even as a perth fan. I totally agree with you there. I think qe are arguing over different things. Im talking off court success and what Perth brought to the league off the court. CT, nothing to do with the on court product. Im not having an ego stoke here either. I dont like one sided dominance just like you probably dont either.
Just lamenting the fact that Cats have been given a dud schedule. No doubt fans of other teams are laughing and enjoying this. Just wish the NBL could do a bit better with fixturing so attendances grow, not decline and thats not just with Perth, however i believe their schedule will affect their attendances more than other clubs.
If anybody gets pleasure in seeing one particular club lose a lot of paying supperters because of a lousy and unfair schdule, probably aren't that interested in seeing the league grow anyway.
For one, I really hope crowds from the other 7 teams can pick up attendances significantly, because Perth won't be able to maintain their numbers this season with this schedule, therefore bringing them back to the pack.
A competitive league is what I want to see as well. If Perth miss the finals then so be it - they've had their run. But to enjoy seeing what should be a significant decline in attendence is not a good thing - even for your most hated rivals!
Perth did carry the league for a while there. It allowed the NBL to pump up its growth in attendance even though Perth was underpinning most of it. Of course, in the past couple of years Melbourne has joined the party. But for a little while there, Perth was all we had as far as strong growth
"Perth did carry the league for a while there."
How exactly? did they pump money back to the other teams before LK came in? No. Did East Coast fans tune in because they were so great to watch? No. Did they take a leadership role in steering the Nbl into growth during this period? No. Explain to me how they 'carried the league'..
"It allowed the NBL to pump up its growth in attendance even though Perth was underpinning most of it"
I cant remember the Nbl ever 'pumping up its growth in attendance'. wishful thinking from the flog army perhaps.
1. Perth had a great business model and were very successful exploiting a large fan base when there was limited other competition within basketball (or within WA fro other sporting franchises for that matter)
2. they had no interest in furthering the wider interests of the league. it took LK coming in to do this
3. they deserve respect for being one of the few teams who put together a solid business model during the pre LK years and for retaining/growing their membership and fanbase
4. they got a shit deal with the scheduling this year no doubt
5. the league is far better off with a Perth team that is competitive with other teams but isn't dominant.
For the league to grow and become a more compelling prospect for the average fan, perth need to get pulled back into the pack. screwing with Perth's home games isn't the best way to. achieve this but lets not pretend for a second that Perth has somehow kept the league afloat for the last ten years. that's utterly ridiculous.
Good response CT, agree with most of that except for the perception that its Perths responsibility to help the rest of the league just because they've got their shit sorted out. What they did do is significantly raise their profile in WA to become the club thay they have, henceforth improve interest in basketball in WA. Means bugger all to NSW, Vic, qld and anywhere else in the country, but thats not the Cats problem.
By 'carry the league' they were largly responsible for increaing league attendance averages. Did they help the other clubs out? No. Nor should they have. Did the rest of the country give two shits about them? No. Nor should they have. Did they keep the league afloat? Doubtful. But they didnt hurt the league or make it worse. They certainly helped improve it and i would be confident in suggesting that Perth were a big player in the league's revival.
"How exactly? did they pump money back to the other teams before LK came in?"
Um yes they did. Their success helped the league make a profit, but that money was spent on the Crocs and the Hawks.
It obviously wasn't LK money but at the time the league was trying to be sustainable. Things are different under LK but at the time, the Cats success was one of the few things keeping the league going. Stop being so ignorant just because you hate the Wildcats.
When LK offered to buy the NBL Marvin tried to veto it like he had done with many issues before that would've helped the other teams. Once asked "who do you think you will play against in future?" and realising the grim future Perth yielded. Sire look after your own backyard but they tried to F everyone else in the process. Arrogance.
CT Perth did help the league, how? Well they ran a successful and profitable team, this meant they didn't need a handout and league support, therby leaving more money to keep other poorly managed and not profitable teams afloat. They were the first team to move into a 14000 seat stadium and achieve 10000 members, this was a huge financial risk amd took lots of hard work and marketing to make it a success, how anyone could be so dismissive of this is hard to understand. No league in the world in their right mind would destabilise one of its largest fanbases and most consistent and well run organisations (despite how you feel about the in court product the viability of the club and the league high membership numbers spell major success) which begs the question, why do it to Perth for 6 home games? They could have at least moved the two sunday games up meaning there were a couple more evening games. Whether you lile it or not perth is are the lakers of the nbl, even if the on court product is not desirable, its the place to be and people pay alot for the privilege. You don't see the nba scheduling their games before brunch finishes
When I said "carrying the league", this was with a bit of exaggeration rather than literal meaning of funding the league.
I stand by the comment though, NBL always trots out that they have had X years of growth in attendance, and they said this back in the day as well when the Melbournes, Adelaides and Sydneys of the world weren't yet chipping in to this growth.
Put simply, seeing a Perth-NZ grand final series allowed the league to look respectable to outsiders, when they see a full stadium and great atmosphere and overall product. It allowed others to visualise what could happen in other stadiums around Australia, if other clubs were run a bit better. That's what is now happening.
"seeing a Perth-NZ grand final series allowed the league to look respectable to outsiders, when they see a full stadium and great atmosphere and overall product"
i think I've addressed this. watching Perth and NZ dominate year after year made the league like a badly run joke, which it largely was until LK came in. let's agree to disagree.
"CT thinks because he supports a basket case team then all other teams should be brought down to their level."
Ha. the Taipans have 5% of the local population at their home games. they've been in the black every year they rebooted as a community owned club 10 years ago. they've posted a small profit year on year without a cashed up owner throughout this period and the 5000 seat local stadium has largely been at 80% capacity or higher during this period. they are constantly on the back page of the local paper or the first sports story on the local news channels. they have huge local community engagement and are at every local school multiple times throughout the year and attend absolutely everything in town they can. they are rooted in all levels of the local basketball community and the qbl. they've just signed a huge contract integrating tertiary sports science and fitness programs from Cqu into their programs and have negotiated and completed a massive expansion of their training facilities that ties in with this deal in conjunction with the local and state governments. all the while remaining competitive with teams from far bigger markets. they are a model of how to run a successful sports franchise in a small market. idiot.
"i think I've addressed this. watching Perth and NZ dominate year after year made the league like a badly run joke, which it largely was until LK came in. let's agree to disagree. "
I don't mean the teams involved, it could've been anyone. I just mean the perception of seeing a full stadium and the "NBA-like" atmosphere that the NBL touts.
Remember last year when people questioned the NBL when they 'left' the Wildcats out of the pre-season games with the NBA, Everyone jumped on the NBL with the blame and then it was later revealed that it was actually Perth themselves that made the decision saying that it would interfere with their season too much.
Don't be surprised when you find out a similar story here. It was not the NBL but the Wildcats that decided on the 11:30 starts to get on commercial TV. They knew all along.
"Don't be surprised when you find out a similar story here. It was not the NBL but the Wildcats that decided on the 11:30 starts to get on commercial TV. They knew all along."
If by "the Wildcats decided" you mean they were offered 11:30AM games or no TV games at all, sure it may have been their decision, but it wouldn't change what a horrible choice they were presented with based on a deal that wasn't well constructed.
Sunday 11.30 games are fine, rather get home early and recharge for the coming working week. Saturday 11.30 games are appalling, Cats will definitely lose members and won't fill the stadium for any of those games. Perth day time in summer is for the beach, not sitting in a stadium on a 40 degree day.
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK???
Is this what happens when you let a petulant wanker like Kestleman run the league like his personal play thing?
Of course there are THOSE who will come back with insightful posts such as "haha sux to be Perf/ Gleeson is a flog" but anybody with a shred of decency and common sense has to see that this is insane.
More than half our games are crap.
SIX games at 11:30pm, and at another 2 at 2:00pm on a Sunday.
No Saturday night games.
And you can't even justify this on the basis of television. Even with a 3 hr time difference, who wants to watch their basketball at 2:30 in the afternoon.
The Wildcats are the only team to have demonstrated that you can make high quality NBL viable, if you have the success, the following, and the right venue. For that we have now been completely fucked in the arse.
I'm in two minds.
I don't know whether to just keep my membership and not go to half the games, in the hopes that eventually Kestleman will get bored and piss off.
Or just give up my seats to somebody that wants to go to NBL on a Saturday morning?
That the Wildcats asked for the Saturday and Sunday games to be on TV is credible. That they knew it would involve tipping off this early is significantly less so.
"Wildcats are refusing refunds, reportedly."But nobody buying a membership could reasonably have expected Saturday and Sunday tipoffs to be earlier than 2pm. Perth have only ever played one morning game, and it was announced as such before tickets went on sale.
I'd say they are within their rights to do this. Even they wouldn't have known the tip-off times when they were selling memberships because the channel 9 deal wasn't struck at the time.
I don't think it's as outrageous as everyone is making out. Earlier than what you would've expected, yes. But not so earth shattering that you can't move on from it. If you've got other commitments, you could sell the tickets, you could move the commitment, you could miss the other commitment or you could miss a game. You've got a month to figure it out.
"But nobody buying a membership could reasonably have expected Saturday and Sunday tipoffs to be earlier than 2pm. Perth have only ever played one morning game, and it was announced as such before tickets went on sale."
It didn't say anywhere on the membership what time the games would be. If you've assumed this, then that's fair enough but not in and of itself a grounds for a refund, in my view.
reading the comments on twitter it's not just the start time, it's the sense of betrayal that a lot of cats fans are reeling from.. there are a few guys there who are acting like their wife's been cheating o them... "WE the Red Army have spoken and this is not good enough.. we BUILT this club.." blah blah blah
it's a privately held sports franchise, you didn't think this was all for fun did you?
It didn't say anywhere on the membership what time the games would be.True, but the club's been around for 35 years and played precisely one morning game, and that was a special circumstance. Half a dozen regular-season morning games is in no way a reasonable expectation.
I'm a Perth member, and the worst part in my opinion is the sheer volume of 11:30 games. I could handle one or two at that time, but to have all three of our only Saturday games at that time is a real kick in the teeth. Saturday night games are easily the most popular time slot, and we get precisely zero this season. Zero. The three on Sunday are much less painful to deal with though.
They need to either reschedule some Sunday games to Saturday night, or the crowds are going to suffer. We already have to deal with the early 6:30pm Friday night time for TV audiences as it is.
It's really disappointing. The Wildcats haven't even sent their final schedule to members via email yet, so that's when I expect the blowback to really kick off.
1, if you are a member call the club so they can record yoir frustration and share it with the league, tje mkre members they have that are upset, the more validated their complaint, and yes they are in discussions with the league.
2. Those saying its no big deal, it is basically half the home games, it is the sheer volume. Kids play sport, umpire, coach, parents coach, take their kids, people work days, its not missing one game or one of your commitments, it is 6, that doesn't look good
3. The wildcats have built the game night experience around nights in the city, and its epic. 12000 people in the city on a friday sat night, after the game fans everywehere celebrating or comiserating. There is nothing better than heading into town on friday after a long week, having a couple cheeky ones then getting into a game of ball infront of a packed house. It's a basketball fams dream, forget the teams, its just epic.
4. Midday on a saturday is just not
5. The only question you need to ask is do ibwant to go watch my team at midday? Will the atmosphere be any good when no one else comes? Will we get good players if we lose money this year? Its a loss for basketball fans
Just a thought .....how would people respond if some Victorian AFL games were scheduled to start at 8 am or 10 am to suit a TV broadcast agreement?
I won't wait for an answer - that would NEVER happen.
West Australians are regularly shafted by the Eastern States, and everybody "knows" that basketball is not as “important” as AFL.
Out of curiosity I broke down the schedule into teams vs times:
I think that's a pretty poor schedule for everyone really. Perth, Melbourne & Sydney with zero Saturday nights between them? Insanity. Melbourne's schedule is arguably the worst of the lot... They have one home game on Friday & Saturday combined!
What happened to the Saturday arvo/night triple headers of recent seasons? They were great for a basketball fan.
"The three on Sunday are much less painful to deal with though"
The two Sunday arvo games are bad enough, but morning games are a freakin joke.
The NBL is an evening sport, yet the majority of our games are not.
The Arena works great as an evening venue. You can head there straight from work, catch an early meal, or have dinner after the game, head into one of the nearby bars for a few drinks. WTF am I supposed to do on Saturday morning.
The Wildcats (like most teams I imagine) are very family friendly and there are a lot of kids at the games. Evening games are still great because they're not too late.
But guess when most Kids sport is run. Yeah, Saturday and Sunday mornings.
Don't get me wrong, if I could choose we'd have zero 11:30am games. It's clear we were always going to have to eat a couple though, and they'd go down easier being on the Sunday. The real problem is force feeding us six of them, and having zero Saturday nights.
Perth membership T&Cs state refunds only considered in exceptional circumstances or where Australian Consumer Law applies. Australian Consumer Law says you can ask for a refund if there is a 'major' problem. 'Major' problems include there is a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they'd known about it. Pretty sure if 6x 11.30 games were known about a few months ago, there wouldv'e been a lot less renewals!
Wildcats seem to have been getting bombed with complaints and hopefully are discussing re-sale/pro-rated refund options with the NBL.
The other fans that got shonky schedules should be talking to their clubs as well. (WTF, No Fri or Sat night games in Melb in the AFL/NRL offseason).
Anyone who thinks 6 of 14 home games tipping off before midday is ok are just being asses cos it fell on Perth. As stated, how many members have kids sports, sports themselves let alone work days on weekends... 1-2 matches fine, not EIGHT including the 2x 2:00pm Sunday matches.
The game experience at the Arena is built to be family friendly but also cater to the after work / night out crowd. It gets them say 2,000+ walk in ticket sales... Those are gone with 11:30 games, plus members pulling out (hehe pulling out), so does the TV deal cover that financial loss?
East Coast 2:30pm Saturdays on 9 obviously isn't worth anything to advertisers, if it's filled with kids cartoons or movie/reality re-runs.
"True, but the club's been around for 35 years and played precisely one morning game, and that was a special circumstance. Half a dozen regular-season morning games is in no way a reasonable expectation."
It has been said that 2pm would be a reasonable timeslot. A game two hours earlier I don't think is grounds to be outraged and owed a refund.
Look, I certainly would prefer 2pm too, but games tipping off at 11:50am is only ten minutes short of being an afternoon game.
Those defending the morning games are also overlooking a fundamental issue.
I go to games because I want to.
I do not want to go to morning games. Frankly even the early Sunday arvo games are a PITA.
So there is a problem. Even if I choose to continue supporting my team's revenue, many will not.
And before you attack Perth fans for being fairweather, tell me how many your team gets to its games? The Wildcats can make money because they can draw 12,000 to evening games and sell 10,000 memberships.
Might need someone to clarify this as its a bit unclear to me. The fixtures in the nbl app only show one game a week on Go - not 2 as per the initial announcment. Further to this it looks like all of the Wildcats 11.30am games have been given a start time of 7.59am - obviously not the actual time, so are these games being reviewed by the league? Something tells me this fixture is in dispute and there is more to come.
Spot on Haz, the six Wildcats' games that were originally for GO at 11.30am are now listed as TBC on the NBL website. Hopefully a sensible resolution can be found so maybe there are only 2-3 Perth games that early.
I think fans would understand that in the name of TV coverage, but 6/14 home games is pushing the envelope too far. Remember when the league scheduled Townsville for lots of midweek games because they thought fans there would turn up at any time. It's probably not a stretch to say the backlash from that in the community had a significant impact on the Crocs falling away so badly.
Last aeasons as cats member there were 2 early games on sunday that missed because of work commitments. This seasons if we go by the 6 11.30 games & 2x 2pm games on sunday. Thats potentially 8 games i miss as a member. My point being even if they only do 50% of 11.30 am games thats still 5 games i miss out on. I dont expect anyone outisde of perth to feel sorry for me but i aint prepared to sacrifice 5 games just becuase the cats took a compromised deal.
Not sure I follow your numbers, but I agree that I don't want a compromise deal.
I'd accept a couple of mid-afternoon games. Not ideal, but we've had them for years, and i can live with it.
But I don't want ANY midday games. Even on the days I'm not working, it just doesn't fit in with how I spend my weekends.
I often spend the day away from Perth. I can't turn around and come back for a noon game, so that day would be lost to me.
And for what?
Who's going to be watching the games on tv anyway?
The Wildcats sent me another email with their latest update regarding this.
They've offered to refund the three Saturday games, but they've stated the start times won't be changing. No mention about refunds for the early Sundays.
Pathetic. I'm seriously curious to see how this plays out over the year. There's no way the club accepts this next season once they realise the impact on crowds it will have.
As far as I can tell, they haven't sent a finalised schedule to members either so I'm not even sure how many members are aware of this. I'm only getting updates because I asked about cancellation.
We have a property, but I also spend time out on the boat.
I don't mind cutting those trips short to get back for something in the later afternoon, but having a game in the middle of the day ruins everything.
It's not even like I can do a day gardening, without having to stop and shower in the middle of the day.
Not happy that the Wildcats have apparently rolled over.
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