concerned
Two weeks ago

how will no gender on birth certificates affect us

With Tasmania looking to remove gender from birth certificates, how will life as we know it change. Will there only be one toilet for all to use?(young girls and old men using the same toilets?) How will both junior and adult sport be played without gender? This will be the end of all womens sport, as from the age of 12yrs up women cannot compete with men in most sports.

Think about what will follow this dumb no gender idea of the looney left.

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

Now this appears to be a shitpost, but it is actually worth discussing

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

No more mens and womens sport! Its sexist. Open entry for all and the best play.....

Reply #713535 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Removing gender from birth certificates does not affect sport. From the time children are old enough for competition, they will identify with a certain gender, and sport can and will continue to be segregated on that basis. You can't seriously think that a male athlete is going to claim to be a trans woman so he can dominate a female competition in which he will have no real career prospects and be constantly belittled. The only reason someone is claiming to be trans is because that's what they are.

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Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

Just makes us more delusional as a society. There is a clear biological difference between male and female and those differences aren't arbitrary, and they have distinct physiological and psychological implications. To upend truth and medical science for the feelings of a few people with a mental disorder is peak 2018.

Just because you "feel" you're a woman, doesn't mean you are. And if you've never actually been a woman you can hardly pretend to know what one feels like anyway. There are a whole range of schisms and discorders that exist that make people think they're something that they're not but I am not sure why it is this particular one that has taken a foothold and allowed itself to infect the rest of our society. Soon we will be invited to share the delusions of schizophrenics, because what is reality anyway, rather than our brains decoding of data? Let's just get rid of the concept of truth and live in la la land.

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Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

Just makes us more delusional as a society. There is a clear biological difference between male and female and those differences aren't arbitrary, and they have distinct physiological and psychological implications. To upend truth and medical science for the feelings of a few people with a mental disorder is peak 2018.

Just because you "feel" you're a woman, doesn't mean you are. And if you've never actually been a woman you can hardly pretend to know what one feels like anyway. There are a whole range of schisms and discorders that exist that make people think they're something that they're not but I am not sure why it is this particular one that has taken a foothold and allowed itself to infect the rest of our society. Soon we will be invited to share the delusions of schizophrenics, because what is reality anyway, rather than our brains decoding of data? Let's just get rid of the concept of truth and live in la la land.

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Perthworld  
Two weeks ago

World gone mad.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

My respect for food for thought just went up

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Common sense can't always be relied on. For every 999,999 sensible and fair people there is 1 Hannah Mouncey and it only takes 1 to make a big mess of things.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

If you feel and behave the way society expects you to on the basis of your sex, then any conversation around gender identity is going to sound ridiculous to you. The same as if you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, conversations around sexual orientation would have sounded ridiculous 15 years ago.

Your perspective on same sex marriage has probably changed in that time. Eventually, the perspective on gender will, too.

So maybe this is 'peak 2018' and your perspective is 'peak 1998.'

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I totally agree with #555, for the record. It doesn't take much to throw everything into chaos and that's why burying heads in the sand and acting like there aren't conversations to be had around gender identity is important.

Mouncey was an issue because the AFL was completely unprepared to deal with it. Why not acknowledge the existence of trans people and have actual policies in place to deal with situations where they wish to compete in - generally - women's sport despite having been born male. You can't develop or implement those policies if you're busy running around shouting "it's a mental disorder lalala."

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

To me it is logical that anyone can be attracted to anyone else and furthermore it has no effect on my life so who even cares. So this is a totally different topic to sexual orientation. The main reason that mens and womens sports are even separated is because of physical advantages between the genders so removing those boundaries defeats the whole purpose of the leagues being different. There is no need to split sports into only 2 leagues of men and women. There is no reason we can't have 3 or 4 or 5 different categories. So just do that.
Age is just a number. I am quite old but just because I might choose to identify as a 15 year old doesn't mean that I should be allowed to particpate in an under 16s competition. (btw I don't actually identify as a 15 year old. that would be ridiculous. I identify as an 18 year old so that I can still buy alcohol)

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Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

"The same as if you are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, conversations around sexual orientation would have sounded ridiculous 15 years ago.

Your perspective on same sex marriage has probably changed in that time. Eventually, the perspective on gender will, too.

So maybe this is 'peak 2018' and your perspective is 'peak 1998.'"

-----

Well, how about no? People have always understood that homosexuality exists. They may not have always embraced and agreed with it, but the fact that there are people of the same sex who are sexually attracted to eachother is an objective truth. "Hannah" Mousey thinking "she" can play professional football with women because "she" is a woman despite being 100 kilos and still having an operating penis is not someone living with objective truth any more than a painted cat is a zebra.

-----

"Why not acknowledge the existence of trans people and have actual policies in place to deal with situations where they wish to compete in - generally - women's sport despite having been born male. You can't develop or implement those policies if you're busy running around shouting "it's a mental disorder lalala.""


----

Trans people exist, insomuch as there exists people who believe they are the opposite gender. But to pretend their belief is reality and gives them an access pass into the realm of the other gender is straight up crazy. Putting transwomen in womens jails, toilets and gyms has already proven to be a volatile issue for the biological women who have to deal with it. Hannah Mousey is a severe injury risk to the women 'she' is playing against. Men and women are different and have different spaces in the community for a reason, and that reason is often to safeguard women. I find it disingenuous for us to say as a society that we care about violence towards women and then say, "yeah, 100 kilo ruckman with a wig, go play against those women half your size. Don't worry about leaving them in a wheelchair. Your feelings matter!"

Not saying we have to be cruel to transpeople, run around calling them names, discriminating against them or harassing them, but reality is reality.,

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skull  
Two weeks ago

Im feeling more and more disconnected with the (modern) world...

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

We're all adults here, deal with it ffs. move on. there's kids dying on nauru.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

There are many areas of the human spectrum that I still don't understand either skull. I think the key is to just be non judgemental when you don't understand something rather than assuming the worst.
But if it is true about Tasmania then yes it seems like it will be a real issue for sport as we know it today.
As for toilets I really don't care. I think in the future public bathrooms will just be a single room instead of 2 rooms. As long as there are cubicles for privacy then who cares who is in each one.

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concerned  
Two weeks ago

being homosexual or not does not come into my 1st post. What I am asking is if there is no gender given on your birth certificate, how in later life are you classified in society and in sport?

Are we all the same gender?

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

Food for thought is spot on, and I'll add that in a society with no gender on birth certificates, it is so easy to gain an advantage by claiming to be a woman if you're in fact a biological man.

But hey, women's sport would become a more commercially attractive package (as opposed to the other kind of attractiveness) because of the quality of play, which is what they want. So hey, maybe Tasmania is on to something. Maybe it's a good thing.

And in response to #713542, the child would know it's male and the parents would know it's male, but it's easy to make a living being a male athlete in a female competition isn't it. Some parents would tell their child that they should classify themselves as female because it's better for their career prospects. Parents in sport are weird and extreme enough as it is, you don't want to introduce this shit.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Most of the posts here can be summarised as "I can't understand the situation because its not something I am personally experiencing, but I’m going to say its wrong regardless."

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"Some parents would tell their child that they should classify themselves as female because it's better for their career prospects. Parents in sport are weird and extreme enough as it is, you don't want to introduce this shit."

Holy shit, this is the hottest of hot takes!!!

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ringlord  
Two weeks ago

So because of the .5% of humanity who feel this way we are all letting it be imposed on us-i already lived in a communist country & was dictated how to think,now i live in one of the biggest democracies & the same all over again.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"I find it disingenuous for us to say as a society that we care about violence towards women and then say, "yeah, 100 kilo ruckman with a wig, go play against those women half your size. Don't worry about leaving them in a wheelchair. Your feelings matter!" "

Oh FFS!!! You're seriously going to draw a comparison to the ongoing domestic violence issue with a one-off concern about a man/woman who doesn’t quite fit in with the norms of the world?

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

What has been imposed on you, ringlord? Living in a democracy doesn't mean the rights of minorities are trampled on just because things they want make you feel uncomfortable.

I couldn’t even begin to understand what is going through someone’s mind when they decide their birth gender is not the person they think they are, but I see no reason to interfere in their lives and tell them how wrong they are or how they are impacting me when they just aren’t.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

It has been discovered that something can happen in utero that means the brain and the body develop as different gender. And there is a difference between physical sexual characteristics and gender.

Trans people don't come out as trans to make life more difficult for you or to upend your view of society. It's hard, really hard. All they want is for people to let it be a little less hard.

As for up ending "truths" things change as discoveries are made. People used to thing that you got cholera and dysentery from bad air. As we come to understand how the human body develops we need to acknowledge it and change with it.

Quite frankly if you are concerned about who is using a bathroom you weird. You enter the bathroom, you use the bathroom you leave. Bathrooms are for the personal elimination of waste. As long as you are doing it in a clean and appropriate manner it's not anyone's business what stall you use.

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

How about you people with left-wing values actually conduct debate the way it should be, with facts and statistics.

"Holy shit, this is the hottest of hot takes!!!"

"Oh FFS!!! You're seriously going to draw a comparison to the ongoing domestic violence issue with a one-off concern about a man/woman who doesn't quite fit in with the norms of the world?"

Those two comments mean absolutely nothing and turn discussion into mud slinging. It's pathetic. It's obviously the same person, because of the use of exactly three exclamation marks. Seriously, person, your contribution is shit.

Can we talk more about how this issue impacts sport specifically? I feel like some good discussion can take place.

Reply #713585 | Report this post


AshT  
Two weeks ago

Skull, I like your comment. It could have been straightforward to just simply promote greater respect for the LBGTxxxx community but the fact things are taken as far as they have is a red flag that there's something a whole lot more political to it all and in my opinion an ungodly and anti-godly agenda, disguised and dressed up as human rights (IMO the string pullers behind it don't care two hoots about the LBGTxxx community). We've seen unsavory governance take shape and gain control elsewhere in the world throughout history and history has and does continue to repeat itself. Commonly tyrannous governments have sought to introduce methods designed to break down the stronghold of family structure.

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

AshT,spot on, but I'd say "break down 'social' structure."

Family structure inherently follows.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Manu, where were the "facts and statistics" that allowed FFT to compare to domestic violence to sport? Which facts support your comment that parents will know direct their kids to change genders in order to achieve more success?

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

Violence toward women generally speaks to a societal mentality, but its roots lie in the safety of women. I see no problem with what FFT said.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Ok lets use this hypothetical. Can we agree that before puberty the difference between sexes for children is negligible- eg. mixed under 10 teams across most sports


If a child is trans and receives the correct hormonal blockers to delay puberty then when time appropriate receives the hormone that correspond with their gender there will be little body development difference between a trans child and cis child.

What the issue seams to be is people who come out as trans later. But you forget there is already issues with gender and testosterone for female athletes. See Caster Semenya

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Where are the stats to support your comment, Manu? You're not really in a position to tell others how to construct their argument when you throw out anecdotal evidence as the starting point for a slippery slope fallacy.

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

There is overwhelming evidence that shows a transgender child does not remain transgender when they get older. Almost as though it's either a phase or they don't know themselves enough to make that decision (you know, because they are children).

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

^the majority of trans children, I should say

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Manu there really isn't. There is a much higher instance of these kids committing suicide instead.

What we can prevent is situations like this.

https://www.thestate.com/news/nation-world/national/article221086495.html

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

The minute you deny fact (fact that comes from over a dozen different objective studies, no less) is the minute you lose a debate.

I'm out.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Manu, where are the facts that support your statement that parents will direct their children to swap genders for career benefit? That is what I responded to with three exclamation marks, which you didn't seem to like. Can you provide facts as you have requested others do, or was that just a baseless opinion?

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Perthworld  
Two weeks ago

Really good points FFT, Manu, AshT, concerned et al... apart from the anon.

Reply #713613 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Please post objective studies.

Reply #713619 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two weeks ago

Go ahead and post them since you see to be the resident expert?

Reply #713620 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I didn't make the statement. He can't say that I denied facts and then not post the facts. But if you like here is the first article I found from a simple Google search.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/22/18009020/transgender-children-teens-transition-detransition-puberty-blocking-medication

Reply #713624 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Two weeks ago

An anon on hoops posting some form of evidence.

The end is nigh.

Reply #713626 | Report this post


Andrew  
Two weeks ago

I agree with FoodForThought. This is PC gone absolutely crazy.

Reply #713627 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Where are the facts Manu?

Reply #713628 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

'Concerned,' I'll address your question specifically.

We are classified as the gender we identify with. For the overwhelming majority of people, that means they will identify as a woman if they are female and a man if they are male. Removing gender from birth certificates doesn't eradicate the concept of gender, it just makes life enormously easier for the very tiny percentage of the population whose gender assigned at birth doesn't correspond to their gender identity. It doesn't stop anyone else being a man or a woman. And the analogy to homosexuality is that their gay marriage doesn't stop straight marriage from existing.

Reply #713629 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

If size is such a massive issue, I hope they stop Aaron Sandilands playing in the same league as Caleb Daniel.

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AD  
Two weeks ago

In days of old when record keeping was poor, and many people literate, recording gender (and sometimes race/colour) was considered an unchangeable part of your identity.
As the fundamental record of birth, gender was likewise considered a fundamental element of that record.

In theory, I don't oppose this measure. On the basis that for many things people should not be classified by gender. If a kid wants to learn ballet, and another wants to become a demolition expert, why should gender factor in to it?

But yes, I can foresee a problem when the birth certificate is the primary means of identification and it comes to situations (eg sport) in which genders are split.

The biggest problem I feel, especially with young children, is that any "disconnect" is more likely to be created by a whackjob parent than by the actual child.

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concerned  
Two weeks ago

the previous post stated "We are classified as the gender we identify with"

How is this governed in junior/senior sport? Do you believe it is OK for girls to be at a physical disadvantage playing against "boys" who identify as girls.

I am only concerned about an even playing field for the majority of people, junior or adult. How many WNBL players would get a game in the NBL?

In all aspects of life, the minority appear to be running the show.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"the minority appear to be running the show."

No, minorities are asking to have things considered from their perspective for certain things. As always, that is met with privileged responses such as yours.

It was barely 50 years ago that African-Americans didnt have the same rights to vote as white citizens of the US. There would have been those that thought minorities were running the show then too.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Concerned. There are already issues in sport for women as far as testosterone is concerned. See Caster Semenya.

But which are you more concerned about trans women playing in women's sports or trans men in men's. I would be more concerned about making a trans man play womens sport - see the Texas wrestler.

For non-professional sport - well for pre puberty (up to under 12s maybe) it doesn't really matter. But really there are already girls who play with teenage boys if there are no teams avalible in some places. How would a trans child be different. And a great deal of social competitions run mixed comps for things like ball, netball, softball

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.  
Two weeks ago

So if we have the WNBL - should it not also be the MNBL ? - By just calling it the NBL we are saying the mens league is the National League - but it is not as both genders are equal.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Still waiting for Manu to bring facts and statistics into the discussion, instead of counting exclamation marks....

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concerned  
Two weeks ago

I am asking, how will all issues be administered without gender.

Retirement age , insurance , apart from sport are currently rated/different for male/female.

If we are to have no gender, is it the best solution for the majority?

Reply #713688 | Report this post


rjd  
Two weeks ago

What is the purpose of this change? I don't know whether this is a movement to individualise us or de-individualise us? With this gender debate, you can either create new labels within a category, remove labels/categories, or keep the status quo.

If we are departuring from categorising labels, are we leading to a single label, "citizen"?

The reality is that the government and companies need these distinguishing labels. They need to base actuarial and other statistical analysis on data using labels such as age, gender, income, marital status, area of residence etc. Sensible drivers, healthy people, and so on, that deviate from their statistically predicted status, are disadvantaged. Remove these labels altogether and those healthy/sensible people will be further disadvantaged. Is that alternative fair?


It's abnormal to be normal in a wide set of categories, so most of us are a minority in some way. If we appeal to one specific minority group, we have to ask, will we do so with every other minority group? To not do so would be to discriminate, which is surely the main objection of the minority group. But to do so would become farcical. The alternative is to just accept that sometimes you are given a label and sometimes that doesn't accurately reflect who you are.

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Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

"Most of the posts here can be summarised as "I can't understand the situation because its not something I am personally experiencing, but I'm going to say its wrong regardless.""

It is scientifically, biologically, and just factually wrong. Someone's experience, aka their thoughts, do not change reality.

------

"Oh FFS!!! You're seriously going to draw a comparison to the ongoing domestic violence issue with a one-off concern about a man/woman who doesn’t quite fit in with the norms of the world?"

Yeah, way to grossly mischaracterize what I said. I suppose when you can't make a valid point it is best to strawman the person you're debating against into views they don't even hold. I said there's a reason why there are men's and womens spaces, and explained why, and you ignored that and conflated the argument to be me having a personal vandetta against people who are different. Give yourself an uppercut, champ.

----

"What has been imposed on you, ringlord? Living in a democracy doesn't mean the rights of minorities are trampled on just because things they want make you feel uncomfortable. "

It's about more than uncomfortable. A society that panders to lunacy and delusion is not a healthy society, and everyone has a right to an opinion on that. When you start denying objective truths in some areas you open the door to doing it in other areas as well. Transgender people do not have a "right" to circumvent biology for their feelings because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

-----

"Quite frankly if you are concerned about who is using a bathroom you weird. You enter the bathroom, you use the bathroom you leave. Bathrooms are for the personal elimination of waste. As long as you are doing it in a clean and appropriate manner it's not anyone's business what stall you use."

Survey women. Say nothing about transgender. Ask if they would like a man in the bathroom stall next to them. And then you tell me whether there is an issue here.

------

"Violence toward women generally speaks to a societal mentality, but its roots lie in the safety of women. I see no problem with what FFT said."

Yes, violence towards women exists. So does violence towards men (and there is technically more violence on men than on women in our society but that's another topic). We cannot control all situations where genders mix, but we need to accept that biological women are generally not able to defend themselves against biological men, and therefore we need to keep them separate in areas where those women are most vulnerable. I'd count toilets among those places, wouldn't you? Hey, no is assuming all men or all transgenders are a threat to women but we do have to act with the understanding that the potential is definitely there and put the safety of the vulnerable above the feelings of the unhinged.

--------

"There is overwhelming evidence that shows a transgender child does not remain transgender when they get older. Almost as though it's either a phase or they don't know themselves enough to make that decision (you know, because they are children)."

There is a movie about this called "I want my sex back". Many of the transgender suicides are caused by the sex change.

----

"If size is such a massive issue, I hope they stop Aaron Sandilands playing in the same league as Caleb Daniel."

Isn't as simple as just size. Men's abilities to overcome physical injuries are better than womens. And even if you compare that size difference, even in men and women the same size, the man will have more bone and muscle density even if from outside they fit the exact same shape. Literally comparing a small and large apple, and a small and large orange, to a small apple and a large orange and thinking you have the same thing. You don't.

-----

"No, minorities are asking to have things considered from their perspective for certain things. As always, that is met with privileged responses such as yours.

It was barely 50 years ago that African-Americans didnt have the same rights to vote as white citizens of the US. There would have been those that thought minorities were running the show then too."

That's not even comparable. You're suggesting we change the way we document births to appease people with psychological difficulties with black people not being allowed to vote? Is that really what you're doing here? You're going to pretend they're equivalent?

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I don't have definite answers for you. I just know those things shouldnt be based on gender. Retirement, parental leave, wages, insurance (which should cover what you choose to pay for in some instances - I want dental not homeopathy), avaliblity of pockets, should be the same for everyone. Get rid of the box for gender all together. SIMPLIFY THE BUROCRACY!

But for sport I guess it's just whatever one you fit into best on a case by case basis.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Did you respond with a strawman of your own with any sort of irony there?

Reply #713696 | Report this post


Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

"Did you respond with a strawman of your own with any sort of irony there?"


What I did wasn't a strawman. He literally compared the two. He compared black man not getting the vote to transgenders having a little bit of noise against upending how we document births. There was nothing false about it.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"I said there's a reason why there are men's and womens spaces, and explained why"

FFT, you basically said you find it hypocritical that we strongly oppose domestic violence, but happily allow a physically bigger “male” play in a female sports comp. I pointed out that is a ludicrous comparison. Where is the strawman there?

If you dont even know what your own argument is, you shouldn't be saying others are misrepresenting it.

Reply #713702 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"What I did wasn't a strawman. He literally compared the two. "

No I did not. I compared the RESPONSE to the two, as in, “it seems like minorities are running the show” would have been the response during the Civil Rights movement as it is today when a minority is seeking a level of respect or recognition.

Reply #713703 | Report this post


paul  
Two weeks ago

"So if we have the WNBL - should it not also be the MNBL ? - By just calling it the NBL we are saying the mens league is the National League - but it is not as both genders are equal."

I would say it means the NBL is open to all basketballers where the WNBL is open to only female basketballers.

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Manu Fieldel  
Two weeks ago

It's funny how these people think they are a member of a different group because their beliefs or feelings don't align with the stereotyped idea of what a person of that gender should be. They are so wrapped up in the concept of group identity that their first thought is to say they are of a different group. They should instead see themselves as a single person who doesn't conform to the steoertyes of that gender. Can't that just make them a 'different kind of boy' or 'different kind of girl'?

If this was a genuine condition, then why do so many backflip on their gender choice later in life? For that simple fact alone, it screams of a psychological disorder. Like a personality disorder.

Reply #713711 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Facts and statistics please Manu.

Reply #713714 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two weeks ago

We're supposed to be in a country of free speech...

So when Hanna Mouncey was refused entry into AFLW, people came out publicly to dissaprove the decision, but what's to be said about all of the AFLW players who didn't want Moncey to be allowed to play but were too scared to publically say how they felt?

Democracy? Dictatorship? Or do we live in a democratic dictatorship?

Reply #713717 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Well "I want my sex back" is from Russia Today a notoriously right-wing, propagandist enterprise. (Think Breitbart). Verses peer reviewed reports on trans/non-binary mental health from places like Telethon instute and Harvard I'll take the latter. I'm not saying there sent some kids who g ok back or live as non binary instead. But the instances are small and the suicide rate incredibly high if treatment is denied

Reply #713719 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Identify as what ever gender you want, identify as what ever sexuality you want, I'm not fussed, you be you and do what makes you happy.

But when it comes to things like sport you're an XX or an XY

Reply #713721 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Two weeks ago

I think there will be a lot on un-intended consequences.

Identifying a gender on a birth certificate is used by a lot of government departments for a lot of different reasons. What is the process to now determine gender for those departments? Did you just assume my gender?

As far as basketball is concerned, gender is used to separate boys and girls for many reasons, including OHS. A parent producing a birth certificate is generally not used to make that distinction, a both certificate is typically the way to settle the argument if necessary.

Netball could be in a bit of trouble. From what I understand, they discriminate against boys from playing with the girls once they turn 12.

Reply #713725 | Report this post


Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

"Telethon instute and Harvard I'll take the latter. "

You haven't seen how ridiculously left wing universities have got recently have you? I don't see how you can discredit one thing that is far right but be completely down with something that is far left. When most of these people come from a background of feminist gender theory I think I'd take Brietbart over that any day.

Reply #713739 | Report this post


Transgenderism is a mental illness

Reply #713744 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

So as somebody wrote above that minority should not make me feel uncomfortable,well if future children have to learn to be gender free then i have a big problem with it.A conspiracy to break up the traditional family unit is in swing big time,most sheeple going along accordingly.

Reply #713747 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Did FFT really just compare university research to right wing conspiracytheory pushing sites like Breitbart?

When you choose a username such as "food for thought" you obviously want to give the impression that you are going to say profound things that make people think. After reading several of his posts, I would say its half true - I am thinking but not much beyond I think FFT is dumb as dogshit.

Reply #713749 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

No more male and female. One league. Stop the sexism! The Best play. That should work...right? Right?

Reply #713756 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"A conspiracy to break up the traditional family unit is in swing big time, most sheeple going along accordingly."

So?
Why wouldn't they go along with it? Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it is logical or ideal.
It doesn't take a conspiracy for people to start thinking outside the box more freely. And if some people do start thinking that way then why should others even care? Last time I checked the "traditional family unit" was still an acceptable option for people.

Reply #713763 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I just find this whole notion that a teenage male who identifies as a boy, is going to falsely claim to think he's a girl, so as to gain access to women's competitions. As if women's sport is such a lucrative business. Does that really make sense or is it just an excuse to panic? AD's point about potentially crazy parents encouraging their kids to identify as girls in order to gain an advantage sounds slightly more probable, but really. If we have actual policies in place to manage inclusion, these sorts of falsehoods would have to permeate every aspect of a young person's life and there's no way it would be worthwhile if you didn't genuinely identify that way.

Reply #713770 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

These same arguments were made about gay people for the longest time ie its a mental illness and/or a choice. Why would anyone choose to go through all this hassle and bigotry?

Reply #713774 | Report this post


sixtiesrockstar  
Two weeks ago

There was a reason we put genders into a class. It was to separate them. The same went for noting our ages. Governments changing the rules will have serious side effects. It will take years to evolve but it will mean the end of womens sports, as if there is no gender then they will compete together. At juniors it means (girls) making lower division teams like U14 division 11. Sure we will get some talented (females) who will compete highly, but very rarely at elite level. But this takes a generation to evolve. Same if we change the rules on birthdates. It will evolve and come full circle until rules are put back in place.

Reply #713775 | Report this post


I am a 5 foot 10 caucasian male.

If i identify myself as a 6 foot 4 chinese woman, does that mean i am in fact a 6 foot 4 in reality?

Reply #713776 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Best debate I've seen on the topic is here

https://youtu.be/gkONHNXGfaM

Reply #713780 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

What's happened to the NBA, no, it doesn't. But I also couldn't care less if you choose to do that because what impact does it have on my life?

For crying out loud, removing gender from birth certificates is NOT the same as eradicating the concept of gender. Again, every other similar debate has tried to use the same 'slippery slope' argument and it's just not true. Where is the big push for legalising bestiality now that we've legalised SSM? There isn't one. Because that argument was ridiculous, just as is the argument that if you don't say "male" on a birth certificate, it will lead to the end of gender division in sport. Nonsense.

Reply #713782 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Still waiting for Manu and his facts and statistics... Weird that he can't provide any.

Reply #713784 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

All for respecting a minority's wishes but by not permitting anyone to have the gender that they are born into stipulated on their birth certificate, whilst it may accommodate those parents( because a new born baby can’t tell you what "sex" it feels it is, it effectively restricts those who wish to have their child’s gender on their birth certificate.

As for allowing trans gender players in sport, why can a trans gender make who identifies as a female not simply play n a male team, regardless of how they think and dress, physically they are still a man, with the same strength as a man, putting them in a women’s team sport is wrong on many levels.

Reply #713785 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"Best debate I've seen on the topic is here"

In case anyone else is curious like I was about the youtube link - if you are far-right and only like hearing far right views then you will feel warm and cozy listening to 10 minutes of Ben Shapiro (former editor of Breitbart News).
If you want to see an actual debate then look elsewhere.

Reply #713786 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"it effectively restricts those who wish to have their child's gender on their birth certificate.

And the effect of this is what?

Reply #713795 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

good question. it's not like parents aren't allowed to make their own record of the gender at birth. height and weight and hair colour aren't recorded on birth certificates either. neither is race. because who cares.

Reply #713796 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Ben Shapiro ? Far right?
Hahahaha a Fascist Nazi you say? Whats that on his head? Oh he is Jewish, well he is still a Nazi, somehow, becuase I don't like his opinions and political takes!

Reply #713798 | Report this post


Anon  
Two weeks ago

My parents called me Sue. They were years ahead. Was bit tough at school being the only boy called Sue. But now I am glad. Tasmania I love you.

Reply #713799 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Ok, well let's for argument sake say gender can’t be stated, how do you do a census.....?
How do you collect data, how do you find family history in years yo come, how do you have a balanced educational class room, how do you validate your child’s gender "should" that be YOUR preference, or does everyone have to bow to the transgender theory now?

Sorry but children need to be children first and foremost and yes that dies include recognising their natural born gender, should they wish to change that when they are able to understand what that entails then they should be free to do so, but not even a parent has the right to deny a child it’s DNA.

It’s absolutely getting ridiculous now

Reply #713800 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Children will still be children, with or without having a gender in their birth certificate.

Reply #713801 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

What this really protects is the 1 in every 2000 children born in Australia each year who are intersex. You often can make a best guess but can't clearly define what gender most of those kids will be until hormones start to work.

Reply #713803 | Report this post


Isaac  
Two weeks ago

Do junior clubs sight a birth certificate as part of the enrolment process?

Reply #713834 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Two weeks ago

Recording gender at birth is an administrative exercise. We don't record skin colour on birth certificates, which has "biological and psychological" implications. Similarly, the birth certificate doesn't carry a record of the child's genotype, which is now practicable and has more and wider such implications.

Most of the implications of not recording gender on birth certificates are administrative and relate to other systems/processes relying on access to such information as a definitive record of a person's gender. e.g., the examples cited above around eligibility for certain sporting and social activities, or in cases where the law specifically relies on gender differentiation (such as prosecution under anti discrimination laws).

Even in these administrative cases, the frequency with which people are required to present their birth certificate as a means to identify their gender is very very small. How many times has a Census form or other administrative form asked you to attached your birth certificate to prove your answer to the Gender question is true? In my 60 years, zero.

In those cases where biological gender is important, it can be determined through physical inspection in most cases and by a simple medical test in others. Let's face it, how many times have you been asked by a doctor or a hospital to present your birth certificate as a means to determine that you're of a given biological gender. Again, in my case it's zero.

So recording gender on a birth certificate is just an administrative function. The decision to retain or remove the requirement should be made with that purpose in mind.

In any discussion like this, it would be helpful to know how gender originally came to be recorded on birth certificates in the first place. e.g., was it to provide an authoritative reference for birth date and gender for identifying the eldest male offspring and thereby clearly identify the line of succession for royal and noble titles? Does anyone know? I don't.

Reply #713836 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I'm sure Manu will have all the facts and statistics pertinent to answering your questions.

Reply #713837 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Two weeks ago

Do junior clubs sight a birth certificate as part of the enrolment process?


When I've been on committees we generally just had the parent fill in the standard form of name, address, boy/girl, DOB, phone number etc. I can recall the committee only requesting a birth certificate once from a parent to settle a dispute regarding age after the association received a complaint, but the gender question was always pretty clear.

Reply #713840 | Report this post


Food for thought  
Two weeks ago

"n case anyone else is curious like I was about the youtube link - if you are far-right and only like hearing far right views then you will feel warm and cozy listening to 10 minutes of Ben Shapiro (former editor of Breitbart News).
If you want to see an actual debate then look elsewhere."

Yeah, Ben Shapiro was never affiliated with Breitbart news. You're thinking Milo Yiannopolous. But thanks for playing.

---

Anyway, not gonna wade into the debate further than to say that taking away gender from birth certificates is the left gone completely mad, whether or not it has lasting implications on the life of the child. It is placating a small minority of people who have a misplaced belief about their own identity at the detriment of logic and reason. Assigned sex is a biological and immutable truth and if we're going to start denying reality to suit fringe groups we're in for trouble as a society. It troubles me that we have government agencies and agencies in charge of maintaining and collating important information buying into the ravings of people who essentially have a form of body dysphoria disorder. People can say it's just a meaningless form, but as we've seen time and time again, when you give an inch to leftist loonies, they take a mile, and that meaningless form will not be enough. They will keep chipping and chipping away as they always do. I think a foot needs to be put down on this idiocy just for the merit of it.

Reply #713844 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

It worries me people think like this about things that will never affect them.

Reply #713846 | Report this post


Isaac  
Two weeks ago

Why is it important information? As PeterJohn has said, it's rarely required for administrative reasons. I couldn't even tell you where my birth certificate is or when I was last asked for it.

For use of toilets? Because they check birth certificates at the toilet door, right? The toilet argument is largely a function of how toilets are currently laid out and little else IMO.

For sport? Rare occasions (Semenya, etc - a small minority as said) obviously provide a talking point that will defy easy or convenient solution, but I doubt people are suddenly going to enter their sons in girls basketball just because of something omitted from their birth certificate. That problem could well exist regardless.

I'm not saying there's no discussion to be had, because it's certainly intriguing, but the idea that it gets people so riled up amazes me. It seems there's a huge awkward reaction to a pace of change. I can appreciate that - in my lifetime (I'm 41) we've gone from homophobic sleights being common in the schoolyard to me having to look up "cis" and having no idea what the latest LGITYBYD acronym is (I don't think I could even get close to guessing).

I suspect there will be a future society without gendered pronouns. They're pretty needless really. Fast forward 100 years. Assume every public toilet has been renovated. Ignore sport for a second. Should we even need a LGBTetc label? For what reasons would gender be important to know in a formal or administrative sense?

Reply #713858 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"Anyway, not gonna wade into the debate further"

If only you'd said that at the start instead of talking nonsense the whole time.

Reply #713869 | Report this post


ANON  
Two weeks ago

"When I've been on committees we generally just had the parent fill in the standard form of name, address, boy/girl, DOB, phone number etc. I can recall the committee only requesting a birth certificate once from a parent to settle a dispute regarding age after the association received a complaint, but the gender question was always pretty clear.“


But if no gender is assigned why do they need to quantify whether they are boys or girls

Do you see where it all leads

It's absolute madness on steroids all this non binary rubbish

Your born one of two sexes unless an heamophrodite, and even then your still going to have no be dominate sex gene

Reply #713878 | Report this post


Isaac  
Two weeks ago

Where does it lead? One side of the argument says there is no point accounting for what is a really small minority. If it's that small, surely the disruptive cases would be few?


Slightly related, I can imagine an argument:

"A board room quota for women is such rubbish. It should just be whoever is best for the job!"
"Good thinking. What if we took gender off birth certificates and let everything be decided on merit."
"No, that would be insane! Are you crazy?"

Reply #713887 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

In some instances,some body types may fit in,but in the majority of cases no way,there would be way to many injuries.Giving hormone blockers to children should be illegal,these days they say your brain is adult at 25 so after that do as you wish.The few trans people i know do not even want these changes,neither do a lot of gay men/lesbian ladies i am friends with,so who is pushing this-lets see maybe the same people funding studies on the matter.Remember 405 of people who fully transition want to go back to original body type within 3 years.

Reply #713892 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

Sorry that was 40% above.

Reply #713893 | Report this post


Bear  
Two weeks ago

I have a lot of empathy for all minority groups and understand many of the hardships they have encountered through bigotry and racism, however at the risk of being shouted down here I don't think anyone (very few by appearances) is able to comprehend the importance of the difference between sex & gender yet, at least it appears so in this thread.

The birth certificate should in fact show what a baby's sex is, as long as it is identifyable, which I would suggest is in 99.9999999% of cases, otherwise it may be listed as unknown or something.

Since we mostly agree on gender identification being recognaised as a mental rather than biological issue (obviously much more complex that that of course), the gender of a baby should not even be mentioned on such a document.

Humans, generally speaking, are born with either male or female sex organs, so identification at birth can only be from their sex, not gender!

No idea where the original post's information has come from, nor the validity of it, just trying to clear up something many appear to be missing here...

Reply #713894 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I am fairly sure you are wrong about the 40% and would like to know where that figure comes from.

Reply #713899 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-transgender-issues/2016/05/13/eca17dbc-177e-11e6-9e16-2e5a123aac62_story.html?utm_term=.ad73802776ab

Reply #713903 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago


"A board room quota for women is such rubbish. It should just be whoever is best for the job!"
"Good thinking. What if we took gender off birth certificates and let everything be decided on merit."
"No, that would be insane! Are you crazy?"


But sex/gender isn't decided on merit is it, and the fact many of the make sex still feel the femakebsex is somewhat inferior and ncaoable of holding such places around a board room table, then regardless of what’s written on your birth certificate, it’s what they see in front of them that they form opinions n before they actually look at the worth of that person.

As for a birth certificate, it only states if the child is born male or female, it dies not state or even insist that said child should remain that sex it’s whole life, BUT it should be included on any birth certificate. Dictating that it’s no longer to be placed to meet the needs of a minority of parents who are yet to even know what or how that child relates to its own gender is actually restricting that child from its birth right IMO. And also then restricting other parents who are in the majority , of theirs.

Reply #713916 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

A girl at my daughters university wrote a study on it,where exactly i have no idea,would you also like to know that divorce rates between same sex couples are double,like the heterosexuals didn't stuff this up enough already.

Reply #713922 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

Topic of sex change regret on google will get you started.

Reply #713924 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Whereas no one has ever regretted entering into a hetero marriage, having children, or other "traditional" family-oriented activities. So yeah great point there. Someone regretting doing something is great proof that no one should ever do that thing or even be allowed to do it.

Reply #713929 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"would you also like to know that divorce rates between same sex couples are double"

No they aren't.

Reply #713936 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

Britain s independent will also tell you that the divorce rate of lesbians is 21/2 times the average.

Reply #713939 | Report this post


ringlord  
Two weeks ago

Look,now i will leave this topic with a message that i did not wish to offend anyone with anything written beforehand.

Reply #713941 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Actually it I read that article. It said lesbians was double the rate of gay men. Not that gay people in general were double the rate of hetero divorces.

Reply #713943 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

So between Manu, FFT and ringlord, they've just sprouted a whole bunch of nonsense with no facts or statistics to back it up, while complaining that everyone who is a leftie doesnt know how to hold a conversation....

Reply #713970 | Report this post


LV  
Two weeks ago

Great thread.

When Harry Became Sally by Ryan T Anderson is a good book on this topic.

In terms of women's sport it's a minefield. The AFLW rules are based on testosterone levels.

This ignores that Mouncey grew to 188cm and 100kg before the transition. So, still gaining from male physical advantages- even if hormone levels have now been reduced to below male levels.

I wouldn't want my daughter playing footy against "her". Does that make me a "bigot" or some other buzzword? Welcome to 2018. Thanks Safe Schools. Thanks far left activists who are wielding increasing influence on our society.

Reply #714078 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Hannah played professional contact sport before transitioning, and still plays that sport now as a woman. Yes I understand she is bigger than the other players, but Aaron Sandilands hasn't killed anyone, Sarah Perkins hasn't killed anyone, and professional sports player Hannah Mouncey is not going to kill anyone. Just because they are larger doesn't mean they are stupidly reckless.

Reply #714082 | Report this post


LV  
Two weeks ago

The fundamental issue is that it's not a level playing field. Is this AFL Women's? Or AFL for biological women and those biological men who now identify as women and are on hormone treatment?

1 + 1 does not equal 3. Hannah Mouncey is not a "women" in the same way that biological women are. It's something roughly like letting an under 16 player play under 14s. Height is a clear advantage in AFL, and here's someone who grew to the top 0.3% of height for a women (or whatever) while they were a man. If Mouncey wins the female brownlow, is that really fair for the runner up? No. It's not.

Reply #714085 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Liz Cambage plays against Leilani Mitchell.

People are different sizes. Hormones affect weight gain, muscle mass etc.

Gonads in sport are less relevant than hormones - hence the problem with people testosterone boosters(for both sexes) and steroids.

Would you rather a situation where a trans man has to play in women's leagues because of the gender assigned to them at birth. Now the problem would be that they have an unfair advantage because the testosterone increases muscle mass.

Or are they not allowed to do something as normal as play sports.

Reply #714086 | Report this post


Bear  
Two weeks ago

On the topic of trans gender people in sport, those are murky waters indeed. Of course we want everyone to participate in sport, especially at junior level and of course at the senior or pro levels we want to see competitions between athletes of all sizes, shapes and abilities.

The fine line between fairness and equality, sportsmanship and cheating in sport hace been tested and abused many times.

We all hate the idea of drugs in sport, yet we all know it exists, we all want our team to win yet hate it when we see a team get flogged every week.

When it comes to sport, the rules now need to be clearer than ever and the distinction between male/femal sex, I believe, must be clarified. This is irrelevant in junior mixed or mixed adult competitions as the rules state male and/or female, however at the elite semi-pro or pro level we now have decisions to make and updates to rules to enforce.

I for one would not want a daughter of mine to work hard and sacrifice so much to make her team, only to be told sorry you are out because a male who now gender identifies as a woman has taken your spot. That right there is the issue for me, let's decide what the rules are going to be clearly and if we decide there will be a mixed gender competition allowance, fine then everyone at least knows the rules beforehand.

The problem we face today is that we confuse sex for gender, they are not the same and therefore sporting competitions need to address the fact that they are not the same, or clearly make policy accordingly to include trans gender people.

Like I said, murky waters...

Reply #714098 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Why is everyone so focused on how this issue would affect them, instead of how this issue affects Hannah Mousey (in this case)? Just because whatever she is going through doesn't conform to the current norms, she must be dismissed from society and can’t live the same life as "normal" people? Its not like she is having her gender reassigned, or whatever its called, just so she can win a female Brownlow.

Reply #714100 | Report this post


paul  
Two weeks ago

In terms of sport, we have women's professional leagues separate from the top competitions for physical reasons, not for social reasons, therefore eligibility to play in women's leagues should be done on physical factors, as it is with the olympics via hormone levels etc.

Reply #714105 | Report this post


Isaac  
Two weeks ago

So, if it's decided on testosterone levels, does that mean the birth certificate isn't used there either?

OP raised:

womens sport - doesn't seem the birth certificate is involved at junior or professional level
toilets - I've never encountered one which checks birth certificates

And what has divorce and regret got to do with any of this? Not seeing the relevance. Gaols and violence are predominantly the domain of us men but it would not be a mainstream argument by any stretch to statistically prevent men from being out after dark, running in politics, etc. "Well, I'm statistically more inclined to be corrupt or rape someone. Seems fair."

I find the dichotomies in general political beliefs so interesting. All about freedom from intervention but wait, gay people are more likely to get divorced so maybe they shouldn't be allowed to get married!

Reply #714116 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Look I get why you might be upset at A trans woman taking a your cis daughter's spot. I don't agree with it but I get it. But turnabout is fair play -

If they transitioned before puberty would you require they prove they were cis?

Or what would be your feelings if we only let people play as their originally assigned genders but that meant that you had to let a testosterone boosted trans man play with your daughter?

Reply #714123 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Mouncey is a great example of why we have to have these conversations. Writing off trans people as mentally ill, throwing your hands in the air and saying "the left has gone mad" literally makes that impossible.

The change in Tasmania is being made at the same time as a change that will allow a married person who has transitioned, to change their registered sex, without getting divorced. I don't think it's hard for anyone to imagine how traumatic it would be to have to divorce a partner who has supported you through as monumental a process as a sex change, simply so that official records can accurately reflect your identity. The changes aren't just left wing nut jobs seeing how much they can wreck your life, they serve an actual purpose.

If we can make some changes that make life easier for people who identify differently or ultimately transition, that's a good thing. Acknowledging their existence should also provide an opportunity to say, well, where are the lines? Can they use the bathroom for the gender with which they identify? Yes, that one's easy. Can they play professional sport? That one's not so easy. Because Mouncey transitioned after puberty, with all the growth advantages mentioned above. What about a genetically male person who identifies as female but has not transitioned through use of hormones or surgery? I feel like there is a line somewhere, and it is a matter of sensibly determining exactly where it lies, because I don't know. My gut instinct is that a situation like Mouncey's ended up with the right conclusion - amateur participation ok but not professional. But it would have been a lot less painful for her if the rules had already existed and been 100% clear, so the uncertainty and public debate could have been avoided. And I'm not sure that my gut instinct is right. I'm a female athlete. There's a risk that one day, I don't make a team because a trans woman with an enormous physical advantage takes my spot. But that risk is exceptionally small. I'm going to miss out on far more teams in favour of cis women who have enormous physical advantages compared to me. I think the conversation matters because I don't know the answer, and a lot of our peak sporting bodies don't, either.

Reply #714145 | Report this post


LV  
Two weeks ago

[Why is everyone so focused on how this issue would affect them, instead of how this issue affects Hannah Mousey (in this case)?]

How about thinking how this impacts on everyone else she competes against? If you create a non level playing field, it's unfair for everyone else. Every single other competitor.

Reply #714229 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

So your response to being asked why are you so focused on how it affects you is to say "have you considered how it affects me?"

Reply #714232 | Report this post


KET  
Two weeks ago

Completely agree with your posts Isaac.

In some respects it's a fascinating insight into the mind of people who somehow need to care about how other people conduct their lives.

The idea of letting people do what they want is somehow "left-wing lunacy" - god forbid people have freedom of choice in their lives.

Reply #714234 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

KET & Isaac the moment that lifestyle choice based on social justice rather than proof or facts affects another person in any way then it is up to the community, society and in the end governments to take a factual stance on the actions of a tiny portion of the population.

Sitting back and saying we should just accept someone for what they believe is lunacy.

Reply #714236 | Report this post


Reality  
Two weeks ago

You are either a bloke or a shiela its pretty simple.

the less than 0.001% pf people who are born that aren't either so effect the rest of us and what we do.

People only care about this sort of stuff because life is to easy and people have time to worry about this shi*t that really is of no significance either way!


The only time it should matter is if clearly a person is male and is getting the advantages of being a male (hormones/physical build etc) and wants to compete against girls/females then its cleary wrong and cheating (body shape/bone structure matter as does longterm higher hormone levels!)

Let kids be kids and lets not sweat the 0.001%

Reply #714238 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"People only care about this sort of stuff because life is to easy "

Not for the people it is actually affecting, which is what seems to get missed here.

Reply #714239 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

This doesn't actually help those affected by it. Suicide rates before and after transition are pretty much the same. Transition hasn't helped. Because it doesn't deal with the issue in the person.

This stuff just makes others feel better about themselves because they feel they've been understanding and helpful. They're actually doing the complete opposite.

Reply #714240 | Report this post


KET  
Two weeks ago

Anon #714236, Do you like people telling you what to do?
Do you like the Government legislating how we should live our lives?

I'd think Australians traditionally have a "GAGF" approach to people telling us how we should do things.

Reply #714241 | Report this post


AKA  
Two weeks ago

I walked into my bank this morning and told them that I identify as a billionaire now and that I would like to make a withdrawal... They were having none of it unfortunately.

Reply #714243 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

So people don't like being told what to do. That affects all sides of this argument not just those claiming intolerance.

Doesn't change the facts of the topic.

Reply #714245 | Report this post


KET  
Two weeks ago

So your argument is "don't tell me what to do by saying not to tell people what to do?"

"Doesn't change the facts of the topic."

The topic here is the idea of removing the gender from birth certificates, they're not re-defining genders, they aren't changing facts, they just don't see that information on a piece of paper as bureaucratically necessary.

What facts are relevant to that? Why is it necessary?

Why is it so important that certain things are listed on someone else's birth certificate that by all likelyhood you'll have zero right to ever look at in the first place?

Reply #714246 | Report this post


Isaac  
Two weeks ago

You are either a bloke or a shiela its pretty simple.

the less than 0.001% pf people who are born that aren't either so effect the rest of us and what we do.
Doesn't your second line immediately contradict your first?!

Reply #714250 | Report this post


LV  
Two weeks ago

Re the birth certificate issue, my question would be, why?

What's the reason for removing sex from the birth certificate?

Roughly 1 in 5000 births have one of various disorders that would have them categorised as intersex. Their underlying DNA will still be male or female, but there has been a developmental problem.

The other 4,999 will be male or female.

We record this in every other area of life. eg: Medical studies must always record sex, because there is increasing scientific understanding that males and females have differing levels of many diseases and often respond differently to treatment. What's different about a birth certificate?

In terms of recording population data, there can be public benefit of knowing the numbers.

So, what benefits are there of removing this from birth certificates?

Reply #714255 | Report this post


LV  
Two weeks ago

[Roughly 1 in 5000 births have one of various disorders that would have them categorised as intersex. Their underlying DNA will still be male or female, but there has been a developmental problem.]

Let me clarify that. In *most* cases the underlying DNA is still male or female. That's my understanding.

Reply #714256 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Two weeks ago

"I walked into my bank this morning and told them that I identify as a billionaire now and that I would like to make a withdrawal... They were having none of it unfortunately."

I'm with you there - I identify as a playboy millionaire. I have a robe but still working on the money, women and flash car side of things. :(

Reply #714259 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

1 in 5000 (if that figure is true - actually I think it is higher than that but it depends on the exact definition) is not an insignificant number so it should not be just ignored.
So this is a valid conversation/debate.

Reply #714260 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

there's no clear definition of intersex so it's impossible to come up with a figure which is conclusive. But nearly all people who identify as trans are not intersex. They identify as trans by choice.

Reply #714297 | Report this post


Isaac  
Two weeks ago

They identify as trans by choice.
Can you clarify this? Do you mean that they'd literally choose to have a pervasive and life-consuming feeling/belief that endures day after day to the point that they risk social harm by dressing differently or, in cases, getting their junk cut up in surgery?

Or that you think they have this within them, but should not "choose" to dress outside norms, find a way to self-identify their situation or have surgery?

Reply #714319 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I couldn't help thinking of this thread when I saw this headline

A 69-year-old man says he identifies as a 49-year-old and wants his age legally changed
https://www.msn.com/en-au/lifestyle/familyandrelationships/a-69-year-old-man-says-he-identifies-as-a-49-year-old-and-wants-his-age-legally-changed-so-he-can-meet-more-women-on-tinder/ar-BBPs61E?ocid=spartanntp

Reply #714671 | Report this post




 

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