robt
Two weeks ago

2nd Tier National Comp?

Has been discussed for decades, but with the demise of SEABL, who/what fills the gap? A clear bridge is needed between the state leagues and the NBL. We need an Oz Cup!

Here's a thought.

Have a play-off season featuring the top 2 teams of each of the state leagues. to be played between state league comps and NBL.

Reckon for most of us, bragging rights will be the ultimate goal but there may be some real benefits for Aust basketball.

This comp would (should) feature our best players, from around the nation, who are not in the NBL.

As it would be home-and-away, every NBL coach would get home-town opportunities for meaningful scouting to fill still-vacant roster/DP spots. Even for 3rd import hopefuls.

Who covers the additional costs?

In a perfect world scenario, I would have the state leagues (not the teams) and the local NBL team(s) share the costs for travel and accom somehow. The competing teams cover their home-venue and extra-wages costs but keep the gate.

I know that this seems to be weighted towrds the state league teams. Here's my justification.

1. Australian basketball.
Such a champions' league would/should offer a very high standard of 'ball. Higher than state leagues, getting closer to NBL

2. We do not have a 2nd tier league.
Every other elite-level sport has its 2nd (+3rd+) tier(s).
Football, in every country.
League, in every country
Union, in every country
AFL, in every country called Australia
Basketball (not NBA/NBL), in every country
NBA, the NCAA/NAIA, and now G league.
Hockey, cricket ... all sports BUT'''
NBL????

3. Reward for the top performing teams in each state league.

4. NBL clubs benefit hugely by having the nations top players (not in the NBL) playing in their back yards, pre-season.

5. SEABL is gone.
With SEABL filling the unofficial 2nd tier role, the better players from around OZ were naturally attracted to it. The SEABL was, at least, where you had the best chance of being seen. However, several state league players stay in their states as the rewards for moving to SEABL states (Vic, NSW, SA, & Tas) were often not worth the costs (money, lifestyle, career etc).

6. The fans.
Mostly speaks for itself.

7. Promotion
Mostly speaks for itself.

Worth a discusson? If not, any thoughts on what should be a 2nd tier comp?

Topic #44742 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Hard enough in nbl for clubs to survive eg Cairns and Hawks. Great idea but comes down to the almighty dollar. Plus travel commitments for non professional players, teams don't want to drive for couple of hours let alone fly around country.

Reply #732263 | Report this post


robt  
Two weeks ago

Agree, 100%. So, do we do nothing? that's my fear.

NBL gets better, as it will. It does have the money.

State league teams will decline. They don't.

Serious prospects will have to go elsewhere to improve (Europe or college in the US become better pathways again).

I honestly believe that real longevity begins with grass routes and progresses to elite. It rarely jumps to the top. so we do need these improving levels to continue that progress.

Reply #732268 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Just leaves you wondering about the thinking / politics behind knifing SEABL.

The Vic league will be good, but still a clear step down from SEABL.

Could BA have shown some greater commitment to supporting and developing a league that was already the clear no.2 league?

No state based league will provide an adequate alternative.

Reply #732271 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Two weeks ago

"Have a play-off season featuring the top 2 teams of each of the state leagues. to be played between state league comps and NBL.“

Wasn't that the genesis of the NBL? A national championship with invitees from the top of the state leagues. Held over a long weekend I think, in Newcastle. Then in 1979 the NBL season started, again with a finals weekend and invitees from state leagues. SA had West Adelaide and Glenelg as their teams.

I think a similar championship weekend could work, with the host city changing on a rotating basis. Perhaps the host state could have extra spot/s for club team/s?

Reply #732275 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

BA - Beholden to the States
The States - Beholden to their Associations
Associations - Beholden to their Base (domestic clubs and grassroots)

As has been discussed on this forum so many times, the money flows up. It doesn't trickle down.

A stand alone second tier league would cost way too much $$$.

SEABL died because the states wanted it to die. BA had their hands tied. Sure they displayed a lack of leadership, but ultimately if it didn't have state based support, it was going to fail.



Reply #732278 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

A competition is different to an end of year tournament which should be what they do..and probably will now that it's effectively state leagues.

Reply #732282 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Which states?

Surely just Vic.

Reply #732308 | Report this post


John  
Two weeks ago

Have always liked the idea of a 2nd tier league.
My thoughts would be something like:
Announce 16 licences.
- Larger state based clubs apply alone or combine bids for a licence. Or the Universities could apply for one.
- Keep the competition Under 23.
- Have them play at smaller venues, with the occasional curtain raiser to an NBL game.
- Make each team's entry on the proviso they partner with a local university to offer spots to their athletes.
- Run during Summer, same time as NBL, collection of best young talent in the country. Wont interfere with state based comps.
- Possibility of a draft for NBL teams after a few years.
- May be an alternative for some instead of college, if the US is not for them, as well as the best young talent we have already here, staying showcase their talents.

Reply #732318 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Under 23. Ridiculous.

Reply #732320 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two weeks ago

Who pays for the travel around the country?

Reply #732322 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Two weeks ago

"the money flows up. It doesn't trickle down."

How much flows up? I found the 2014/15 BA Annual Report. A bit over $10 million turnover, $6.6 million of which was grant funding (I.e., Federal funding). $1.7 million of income was from membership fees. So about 17% of BA's money flowed upwards in 14/15.

Couldn’t find the 17/18 year Annual Report but the numbers should be a bit different as Olympia have been and gone and NBL is no longer run by BA.

Reply #732326 | Report this post


John  
Two weeks ago

- Anonymous. Good contribution. The point being, treat like a development league for the NBL. It's been written here about the lack of opportunity for young basketballers to get a chance in the NBL because of the lack of spots with only 8 teams, 3 filled with imports, and another half dozen with experienced Aussies.

- Melbourne Boy. The clubs. That's why I mentioned better for the bigger clubs, or the Universities themselves, to enter. If it's a developmental league, you'd save money on not having imports etc. Could also be a boon for that club, as it would be known that they would have a clear pathway to the next level, attracting more junior talent.

Reply #732329 | Report this post


Dr. basketball  
Two weeks ago

I understand cricket converted their state second XI tournament into an under 23 only competition and it was a disaster and they wish they had never done it.

Reply #732332 | Report this post


John  
Two weeks ago

Not much of a cricket fan, so can't comment on that. But the TAC Cup & Toyota Cup for both AFL and NRL respectfully seem to be very well supported and hold an important place in the structure of the game. NCAA College basketball even could be considered a development league, considering that's where the majority of NBA players are drafted from, the players are for the most part 23 or under (College age). Although I know this is a popular enough competition in its own right.
The A-League clubs also have youth teams that compete in their own league.
On a lower level, being a Victorian, the Youth Champ Division in the Big V is a great competition. The idea with this would be condensing that talent, nationwide, and be on full display for the NBL teams to pick the next generation of players.

AFL doesn't have a genuine 2nd tier comp. That essentially falls to the state leagues. Not a true "second division" of the AFL.

While I'm all for a second divison league, I don't think it would garner the support of a new league with new franchises starting up. To use existing clubs would be to the detriment of that club entering a State League team, as they'd have to field a team year round, with imports and other players salaries chewing up limited funds. I mean, would Dandenong field a team in the new Elite league, then a similar team in second division NBL ??

If you treated the Development league similar to the way the NCAA do it, offering university places, and focusing on the Development, eliminating player payments all together, surely that would take away a large chunk of the costs.

I think if there was a perfect platform, with no issues, it'd already be in place. I'm sure my suggested format would have it's issues, but I'm sure they could all be figured out.

Besides, those knocking the idea haven't exactly been too forthcoming with proposals of their own. Looking forward to hearing them.

Reply #732340 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"Besides, those knocking the idea haven't exactly been too forthcoming with proposals of their own. Looking forward to hearing them."

No need because the idea is dumb.

Reply #732341 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Could someone please tell me what the NATIONAL 2nd tier competition is for

AFL?
CRICKET?
RUGBY?
SOCCER?

IMO there are none. TAC is an u17/18 comp & only for VIC & occasionally one team each from TAS & NSW?

National cricket is the Shield comp, 2nd tier are the various State premier, league or district cricket comps.

Soccer has state leagues.

Ruby is probably worse off than the other 3 I mentioned?

So, my summary is there is no National 2nd tier comps in the other sports.

Therefore, it is pure fantasy to think that basketball needs one or will have one, especially as of all these sports it is probably the least strong from a financial point of view.

Reply #732380 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"who/what fills the gap?"

What Gap?

" A clear bridge is needed between the state leagues and the NBL"

Says Who?

Unless you have a massive competition, with divisions, the 2nd tier of any premier competition is always substantially below.
And even so, a 2nd Division isn't actually a 2nd tier.

The short answer is that there is actually no real need for a National comp at the 2nd level, and the costs simply don't warrant it.

It would be a relatively simple exercise to amalgamate the existing state leagues into a national comp, with either divisions or conferences. Problem is that even with conferences you substantially increase costs without anyway of improving revenue. Then poorere clubs are forced to either fold, stick to juniors, or go back to some form of state league.

Reply #732385 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Should be a g league type comp.
Each Nbl team should have a secondary team they can pull talent from and develop young players.

Reply #732386 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Isn't this the BA u20 National Championships?

Reply #732395 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Cricket has The Sheffield Shield

Reply #732403 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

385 is on point. Non of the major sports in Australia have a Second Tier National Competitions in Australia.

AFL, Rugby, Soccer are all State Based. Cricket has the Sheffield Shield, but that is not a second tier competition, it's is our domestic national competition. Soccer has the FFA Cup, but that is a national multi-tier knock out competition, so is not a Second Tier National Competition.

Long story short, a Second Tier National Competition is not needed. State based leagues work just fine as the second tier. And if they bring back the Australian Club Championships that will be a suitable competition to pit the best second tier teams against each other.

Anything else is just throwing a whole bunch of money at something a problem that doesn't really exist, for little return if any.

Reply #732408 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Two weeks ago

Sheffield Shield is the national competition, second tier is the state district comps.

Reply #732410 | Report this post


Dr. basketball  
Two weeks ago

No, state second XIs (now Futures League) is the second tier, bringing together the best players from grade cricket that aren't in the state team.

Reply #732425 | Report this post


PersonalFoul  
Two weeks ago

Stronger state leagues makes more sense, SEABL is outdated and under funded.

The possibility of a true state tournament (aka NCAA STYLE) makes more sense, clubs must play 3 out of state games scheduled on their own terms with teams (non-conference play) then top 2 from each state going into a tournament style knockout play over Australia Day weekend?? or create a calendar point that doesn't conflict with the NBL.

Put more money into the state leagues, like cricket instead of trying to create a national second tier in a country which doesn't support it.

VIC/TAS (highest tassie team autobid) 3
NSW/ACT 2
SA 2
QLD 2
WA 2
NT 2
There is your 12 team knockout you could have Tassie/NT due to size be involved in a play in game to reduce it to 8 team knock out potentially

Reply #732431 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Again,

Why would NBL fun it when you are looking at $20k for each game with flights and accommodation?

What is their return on investment when those players that would be getting looked at would already be DP's for the NBL teams.

Can't do it over summer as the players you want to look at aren't available. And clubs wouldn't be able to do it because their best 3/4 guys are already playing or training NBL.

We can't get a TV deal for NBL, so no money to these teams.

Again we expecting a 'white knight' to lose millions of dollars, and for what? Some games for a majority of kids who'd prefer to live the college experience! Who wont even play NBL in an 8 team competition anyway!

These threads are delusional!!!

Reply #732449 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Come on man!! You are just taking the piss, right?

"SEABL is outdated" That's a bold opinion from you there. It disappeared six months ago!!

"Schedule out-of-state games" Hahahahaha!! Townsville? Perth? Who should they play?

"Play over Australia Day weekend" Two months BEFORE the season? Imports aren't here and NBL guys are a little busy. When we are we preparing for this?

"Doesn't clash with NBL" That would be when we play our state leagues.

"More money into the state leagues" From who? Clubs are spending a lot already. BA struggles to fund the multitude of national teams. The magical "more money"...like no one is working really hard to bring in more money already.

"VIC teams 2, NT teams 2" What? What? Since when is NT basketball at the same level as VIC?

I'm dying!!! This is so funny

Reply #732456 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

"SEABL is outdated and under funded" Yes because it's LONG DEAD. All cred immediately gone. (not that there was any in the first place)

Reply #732492 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

No state league will be as strong as seabl.

Shame BA didn't have the balls to support and develop a good quality competition.

Reply #732503 | Report this post


PersonalFoul  
Two weeks ago

It's outdated the idea in this current cost climate that clubs can successfully and financially run a 2nd Tier Comp is laughable.

There is no money .... no cash, no cash here.

A model that makes teams play within their state instead of travelling interstate, even a semi-pro league that is more conference based has a better chance of long term survival

the SEABL had faults and not all of them were BA related, the BA is about the national interest not about assisting the payment of a few imports. BA and BV & BSA and BNSW and all state bodies aim is ultimately should be to create Olympians not run semi-pro or pro leagues.

You want a 2nd Tier National Pro League - FRANCHISE IT!

Reply #732576 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

A senior club champs tournament (similar to the junior ones) might be fun.

Reply #732592 | Report this post




 

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