Anonymous
Earlier this year

NBL team financial woes?

An NBL team allegedly has had trouble paying players, and staff (including super). Source (Paul Cochrane)

What does this mean for the league? Which team could it be? There were comments online suggesting Illawarra might be that team, and that it could potentially be related to the comments from Bevo saying he may not be coaching next season.

Topic #44819 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I would have guessed Cairns

Reply #734000 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Does cairns have an "owner"?

Reply #734002 | Report this post


Flop Warning  
Earlier this year

I would guess that it's likely the Hawks given what we have been hearing from bevo and others.

But I have no idea personally.

Reply #734005 | Report this post


skull  
Earlier this year

I reckon its Illawarra....that roster (with coach) cant have been cheap.

Reply #734008 | Report this post


A A Ron  
Earlier this year

It's Illawarra, explains how a team that usually shows heart played like they were distracted the last few games, even when they were still a chance to make finals.

Reply #734009 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Illawarra has to be odds on favorite sadly

Perhaps the players have lost their mojo too. Strong, fighting season but ended with barely a whimper. Could suggest something's up.

Reply #734012 | Report this post


CT  
Earlier this year

cairns average attendance this year is about 4k. it's not cairns.

Reply #734019 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

Would be a great shame - this month marks exactly 40 years of Hawks in the NBL.

Reply #734021 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

phoenix in, hawks out... bit like bullets in, crocs out

Reply #734022 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Don't the Hawks have a reasonably wealthy owner? I would have thought he'd be able to pay the bills.

My guess would be Cairns since they don't have an actual owner and might have not generated enough revenue/profit year through sponsorships, sales, etc.

Reply #734023 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Doubt it would be Cairns, they are a well-managed club.

Reply #734024 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

LK takes over the league, fails to deliver the much promised media money, and another team who put their faith in him - a foundation club no less - set to fall.

Yep, this league is going great guns.

Reply #734054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I wish people like Cram didn't comment til all the information is out there. LK has been a saviour for basketball in Australia mate, so beat it with your negativity aimed at him.

BA and the people before couldn’t get the league rolling like it is now, and we have a product that is one of the best leagues in the world, yet your negative? Look at the facts buddy

Reply #734057 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

My negative what?

Fact: Beyond putting money in (which would be noble if it didn't necessitate every other club getting into a spend off), there is little else to LKs model. Nothing has shown any hint of sustainability. Its fools gold.

Reply #734058 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Illawarra/Wollongong have had financial woes for as long as I can remember, twenty plus years, there crowds and the ridiculous cost of WEC make it very hard to compete. You certainly can't blame LK and his organisation.
I hope the hawks survive again for the sake of the competition and have a few more dollars to play with.

Reply #734060 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Illawarra have released a statement saying they're ok and are preparing for next season. The newspapers indicate that the issues stem back to the previous ownership but amounts owing to players and staff have been paid.

Maybe old news that Mr Cochrane dug up?

Reply #734064 | Report this post


Fryz  
Earlier this year

The Hawks superannuation issues were resolved just before this season tipped off.

Reply #734065 | Report this post


Anon  
Earlier this year

Mercury article :

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5906763/hawks-move-to-quash-talk-of-financial-turmoil/?cs=12

Reply #734068 | Report this post


James  
Earlier this year

So Cram, what suggestions do you have to improve the situation? Would you suggest a league like the SEABL would be more appropriate?.......Oh hang on.

Reply #734070 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Illawarra were having financial troubles before LK took over, and they still are. Sad but unsurprising.

Unfortunately for all of us sports fans, the only professional sports comp in this country where most of the clubs make profits is the AFL. And that's partly because of all the pokies money propping us the clubs.

So essentially the only sport with sustainably successful clubs is profitable because of s side business, not even sport!

So, whinge about the lack of sustainability in the NBL all day long, but feel free to propose something better

Reply #734071 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Earlier this year

I think a better question is what would sustainability look like for the NBL?

Would it be every team plus the league running at a profit or breaking even, with no need for the owner(s) to tip in cash, for a full season? 2 seasons? More?

I wonder if that has ever happened in the 40 years of the league?

Maybe sustainability is just making sure that there is always someone willing and able to prop up the league or to replace clubs that go broke? That seems to have worked to sustain the league for the past 20 years.

Reply #734072 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

The single best improvement would be to accept that LKs plan is fundamentally flawed and start from scratch.

Running a sustainable sporting club is difficult, no doubt. To even get close though, you have to at least be TRYING to.

Clubs marching to the beat of LKs "lets spend heaps of money and that'll do the trick" are waiting for a payoff that is never going to come.

Reply #734073 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Change their name to the Tigers and have them play in some tiny venue in Melbourne. That seems to be the only thing that would satisfy Cram. He is first to jump in whenever there is half an excuse to take a shot at LK but nowhere to be seen when good things happen. Hawks having struggles is nothing new.

Reply #734074 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

"Maybe sustainability is just making sure that there is always someone willing and able to prop up the league or to replace clubs that go broke? That seems to have worked to sustain the league for the past 20 years."

Really? You don't see any damage to the constant reputation of a league of 8 teams that has had 20-odd other teams come and go? Alienating fans a sponsors along the way.

Reply #734075 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

"Change their name to the Tigers and have them play in some tiny venue in Melbourne. That seems to be the only thing that would satisfy Cram. He is first to jump in whenever there is half an excuse to take a shot at LK but nowhere to be seen when good things happen. Hawks having struggles is nothing new."

Good things? Like? The "landmark television deal" where they get no money while continuing to pay for the production and accept awful time slots?

The concentration of ownership to a point where the league owner allegedly has his hand in the ownership of up to 4 clubs?

One such club being on the market for over a year and no takers?

Giving a licence to a rich sucker with zero oversight while knocking back a bid from a group who've put countless times more legwork?

Yeah all good things, all good things.

Reply #734076 | Report this post


paul  
Earlier this year

"Good things? Like? The "landmark television deal" where they get no money while continuing to pay for the production and accept awful time slots?"

That's not actually true, they get a share of advertising revenue which will run well into seven figures. In year one I imagine it won't cover all production costs but will go a significant way towards it.

It's easy to be cynical about the TV deal, but for the league to have all games on STV and two live games on FTA is the best it's ever been for the NBL, and that's the big reason they have some major brands on board as sponsors.

Reply #734077 | Report this post


paul  
Earlier this year

"Giving a licence to a rich sucker with zero oversight while knocking back a bid from a group who've put countless times more legwork?"

Which is the group that got knocked back?

Reply #734078 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I rest my case. You would rather have no league than have a league that doesn't meet your unique personal specifications. You hang around here hoping for bad things to happen just so you can gloat about it. I feel sorry for you.

Reply #734079 | Report this post


James  
Earlier this year

So Cram, the only suggestion to improve things you have given is........
There are certainly positives at the moment, eg larger crowds and the quality of the talent on the court.

Reply #734081 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

No, I would rather a league that understands that things need to change and that doing the same old thing that has failed again and again and again and expecting something different is simply kicking the can down the road.

Paul, I was referring to the Hobart bid who have been asked to jump through a bunch of hoops while another guy turned up with a cheque and nothing else.

And with production costs, the point still stands it is costing them money to have games on TV and ratings are still awful, which makes it unlikely that deal will get better.

The heart of LKs spiel has been that eventually the hype will turn into money to fund the league. That hasn't happened and won't happen. Once he pulls his money out - and it will happen eventually - then what?

Reply #734082 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Cram, there are records getting set on every level, and for your information NBA TEAMS also run at a loss, but there is more to it that just that.

If you don't like LK’s model, then don’t go to games mate, but the majority of us do, and it’s given us the opportunity to have a great world class league to showcase our talent on the world stage.

Go watch bigV and enjoy complaining to others in the stands.

Reply #734083 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Cram, there are records getting set on every level, and for your information NBA TEAMS also run at a loss, but there is more to it that just that.

If you don't like LK’s model, then don’t go to games mate, but the majority of us do, and it’s given us the opportunity to have a great world class league to showcase our talent on the world stage.

Go watch bigV and enjoy complaining to others in the stands.

Reply #734084 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

I don't go to games, but thanks for the tip.

Showcase our talent? There's fewer Australians in the league than at any point in history. What a great advertisement for Australian basketball.

Reply #734085 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Oh Cram, you must be fun at parties. There are less team pal, thanks to the people running the league previously. However, we are now in a period of expansion.
Please don't use the three import argument, and we now have 11 roster spots and DP’s which was never a thing back in the day.

Sort of glad you don’t go to games by the way, as true fans want the game to succeed. Enjoy the lawn bowls on ABC this weekend.

Reply #734088 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

I would love nothing more than to see the game succeed and follow a successful, sustainable Australian basketball league.

Reply #734089 | Report this post


paul  
Earlier this year

"Paul, I was referring to the Hobart bid who have been asked to jump through a bunch of hoops while another guy turned up with a cheque and nothing else."

The Hobart group haven't submitted a bid yet, they're still a bit off having all the pieces in place, most notably a stadium to play in and subsequent non-basketball revenue streams.

Reply #734094 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Got cramed

Reply #734095 | Report this post


JC  
Earlier this year

"Sort of glad you don't go to games by the way, as true fans want the game to succeed."

True fans are increasingly harder to find, given their teams keep folding under this fantastic LK model. Can't wait to have two completely generic Melbourne teams, that'll really get the 'true fans' out of the woodwork.

Reply #734097 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

From what I can gather, the NBL wants to really make sure the Hobart bid is strong because it is a tough market for a pro sports team. They want to give a licence to a team they feel will be sustainable.

Reply #734100 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Cram, it isn't easy to build a successful, profitable sports league in a football dominated country. Small steps. It was never going to turn around in a few years, but there are incremental signs of improvement and lots of initiatives attempted by this ownership group (and self funded).

You're living in fairyland if you think any businessman can hit home runs with every decision.

Reply #734102 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Cram wants a sustainable league but also wants a team from Hobart to be fasttracked into the league because yeah small economy, small population and small venue has got sustainability written all over it right. Way to sound credible. The NBL is right to do their due diligence on that bid.

Reply #734103 | Report this post


Isaac  
Earlier this year

The single best improvement would be to accept that LKs plan is fundamentally flawed and start from scratch.
How is that different from your worst-case view of LK's plan, outside of timeframe? i.e., it all implodes and they have to start from scratch when he pulls the pin...

I can see a sustainable model and also a hit-for-the-fences model (LK's plan) as both being valid. One's more of a gamble, but the pay off is bigger - better TV coverage, better Australian players, bigger marquee recruits, etc. I think you're calling it 2-3 years too soon.

Reply #734104 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

"You're living in fairyland if you think any businessman can hit home runs with every decision."

That's just it, not looking for home runs. A decent base hit would be nice.

"I can see a sustainable model and also a hit-for-the-fences model (LK's plan) as both being valid. One's more of a gamble, but the pay off is bigger - better TV coverage, better Australian players, bigger marquee recruits, etc. I think you're calling it 2-3 years too soon."

Fair Call. I'd rather get started on a sustainable league now rather than wait for the inevitable implosion.

"Cram wants a sustainable league but also wants a team from Hobart to be fasttracked into the league because yeah small economy"

No, I want all bidders to be held to the same standard. Rich guys with $$$ to throw away just means more of the same short term NBL clubs.

Reply #734110 | Report this post


X  
Earlier this year

Oh yay, the opinion of someone who doesn't even go to games! You sound like a well-informed person.

Reply #734112 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

should the nbl buy WIN Enterainment centre and Cairns Convention Centre as a future investment

Reply #734113 | Report this post


Cats for life  
Earlier this year

Lk has made everyone take notice, not everything can be positive but at least he saved us and has done more than enough for the nbl to move forward.

Personally I'm still not a fan of owning or part owning a team and maybe will always stick with the and others that he still might have ties somewhere down the line.

You have to respect the man and his crew for what they have done so far and nothing but great things other than the camera angles and shot clock in sync would be nice.

Reply #734122 | Report this post


Moore or Less  
Earlier this year

Yay!! Another forum hijacked by the LK conspiracy theorist's... The game was so much better back in the day (yawn). Melbourne United are not the Tigers (yawn). I hate to tell you no one apart from a small minority of troglodytes care..

Reply #734319 | Report this post


D2.0  
Earlier this year

I'm not a huge LK fan, and even less of the muppets running Sydney. But I will say this:

There are currently only two sustainable clubs in the league. One is run on a shoestring, and will finish with a spoon.

The other only got there on the backend of years of subsidy, and consequent success.

Melbourne are on their way. They've won a championship and been very impressive for most of this year. And Sydney aren't far behind. Adelaide and Brisbane have also kept it interesting all year.
Realistically, this is all down to LK. Without him, his money, and his connections, we'd all be yawning our way towards the Cat's 10th championship.

As for Generic Melbourne teams, well the sad reality is that we NEEDED to start over. The league simply couldn't sustain the myriad of Victorian clubs, and winnowing it down to only a couple of legacy clubs simply alienated the majority of existing fans.
For all those who thought he'd stitched up Victorian support with United, well lookee here, he's now delivered what we all said was needed. A 2nd Melbourne team based in the traditional South East Corridor. Sure it won't work overnight, but eventually its going to produce an awesome cross-town rivalry, and a profit also.

Reply #734327 | Report this post


RJL  
Earlier this year

@734113
Hawks need their own (owned) venue to build sustainability. Its like the grass roots sports model - get the gate, the canteen, the bar - all would help. So, where to get the money from to do that......Club has made gains financially this year with a couple of new sponsors and with the ACT deal.

Reply #734343 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

We crammed a lot of info into this thread ; )

Reply #734360 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I doubt $175k is going to make that much difference overall.

Reply #734535 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

I don't understand the criticism towards LK.

Just prior to LK - we had a league with no sponsors, no TV, 3 viable teams with Money (one being LK's Melb Utd). NBL had run out of white knights, consortiums, Associations able to or willing to assist.

The talent well was dropping in favour of foreign leagues, or the AFL. There was no marketing, no business nouse, nobody with any credibility willing to talk to the league.

The league imploding and magically coming up with a sustainable league - who funds that? You've got a choice of nobody and nada. Who organises it?
Where does revenue come from? What TV network pays for that disaster?


Fast forward, and we've got all games on FOX, 2 games per week (roughly between 25-30% of games) on FTA. We've got naming rights sponsor, numerous other major sponsors.

The quality of the league has improved considerably talent wise - we're stealing back players from foreign leagues.

I've been banging on about how there's no point in an entertainment product where the entertaining part is competitiveness, to have a situation of 'haves' and 'have nots' where a team just buys their way to the finals each year, where the season becomes a foregone conclusion.

IMO, the sheer and obvious corruption of early 000's til only a few years ago is no longer so prevalent or at least visible. The 'haves' and 'have nots' still exist to an extent: with that said it has become very clear the 'have nots' like 36ers, Bullets, Hawks have received a fair bit of assistance from LK.

The NBL is on a very positive trajectory, what I think will define its success and sustainability will be the types like Adelaide, Brisbane finding a way to replicate the type of club management competence of Perth Wildcats.

That will assist in leading onto the second part, avoiding the 'haves' getting away from the 'have nots'. The equalisation type strategy is a good starting base, especially if that money isn't tied to particular uses.

For instance, if a club like the Hawks in previous years who were talented on a budget can use the money better for marketing to bring in fans, that may be a better strategic use of the money.

With the glut of sports, and the type of capital behind Cricket and Soccer these days, if the LK can reduce it's production losses, they don't need to "make" money from media rights to succeed, especially if enough sponsors come on board and value that media exposure.


Reply #734592 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Great post, KET

Reply #734599 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

WE ain't stealing anyone from O/S, they have had enough overseas and are happy to return and take the money.

Reply #734680 | Report this post




 

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