Frogmanbaby
Last month

36ers Indigenous round disgrace

So an indigenous artist named Elizabeth Close posted this on her FB page yesterday and it makes my skin crawl.

Surely in 2019, large organisations with millions of dollars of annual revenue, are not *still* asking Aboriginal Artists to work for free... right?

Gosh it's almost like I’ve been here before! *cough* Qantas *cough*

On Friday of last week I received an email from the Adelaide 36ers asking me if I wanted to design their Indigenous Round jersey. I told them I’d be delighted and I planned to meet with the CEO and Marketing manager to discuss.

On the day of the meeting, both the CEO and marketing manager pulled out due to illness so I met with the media and merchandise guys. We spoke about how some sporting clubs were leading the way in terms of their commitment to Reconciliation. They asked for a quote for artwork supplied in vector format (normally this is a graphic design thing but it is actually something I can do myself - but it’s not a standard thing that all artists do) and in a very tight timeframe (two weeks until final submission). They said they didn’t know what kind of budget the CEO and CFO’s have in mind, but "send us a quote".

We parted ways and I went away and came up with a quote for the professional services to create vector artwork following their strict style guide and palette, and a licensing fee for the use on merchandise and so forth; in line with the industry standard and projects I have done of similar scope for similar sized organisations.

Before it was sent however, I received an email from the media manager advising me that he had spoken to the CEO who told him that the 36ers don’t actually have a budget allocated for this. They blamed the NBL for having “only just” announced the Indigenous Round (last December) - after their budgets had already been allocated. However, in lieu of payment, they were happy to come to an arrangement by giving me “contra” in the form of free tickets to the game etc. They went on to say how this will build my profile because they have “92K followers” on social media (there are 46K on Facebook and 25K on Instagram but whatever man, details!)

iT wILL bE sUcH gOoD eXpOsUrE

So the 36ers are demanding a professional service, over and above that of an artist; but also a graphic design service to vectorise the artwork, but are expecting not to have to pay for that service... I’m assuming therefore that they paid the graphic designer who designed their original jersey in free tickets, caps and drink bottles, right? And the plumber who fixed the blocked toilet in the office got paid in hoodies and giant inflatable novelty hands? I think not. Not to mention the fact that my professional services - my artwork, isn’t just aesthetic. My practice is underpinned by my culture - which is hard to place value on, but that value definitely isn’t free tickets to a basketball game.

My project manager was polite and gracious, and told them that this practice was not only unethical and unreasonable, but it was terrible PR. She even suggested to the 36ers to look to their sponsors - who of those has a Reconciliation Action Plan and might see this as an opportunity to act on that plan by helping to fund it? This suggestion was ignored.

The 36ers are holding firm on this, despite the CEO being told just how completely unethical this is. He responded by suggesting that I was wasting my time and theirs because apparently I knew from the start that they weren’t paying for it. Which begs the question.... why then did your staff ask me for a quote at the initial meeting? Now he’s; thanks but no thanks, “considering other options” which I interpreted as “I’ll find a more emerging artist to exploit instead”.

Why do the 36ers want an Indigenous jersey anyway? Do they want it because they believe in the spirit of Reconciliation and celebrating First Nations Australians in basketball? Or do they want it because it’s the trendy thing to do? to look like you’re culturally switched on, and use it for media opportunities?

Can they not see the absolute irony of exploiting an Aboriginal Artist in their effort to make themselves look woke, and engaged in Aboriginal issues and Reconciliation?!

Let me get this straight....You’re such a progressive, culturally competent organisation, as evidenced by your virtue signalling with your on-trend Indigenous Jersey, yet you think so little of the professional services provided by the Aboriginal Artist who designed it, that you think it’s entirely appropriate to demand professionalism, but not pay for those professional services.....

Yeah nah.

Also if you actually “really loved my work” like you said, then you probably should have googled me - then you’d have known that I don’t tolerate rubbish like this lying down. Due diligence, guys!

Topic #45934 | Report this topic


anon  
Last month

Disgusting.

Reply #763941 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Seems they are trying to tick a box and move on, maybe they should ask a former Aboriginal player to design it for tickets and a hoodie

Not sure they have ever had one though, if they did current leadership wouldn't know

Reply #763942 | Report this post


Bizzy  
Last month

Do you think I could offer to pay for my membership with exposure on my Facebook, Twitter and Instagram? Maybe I could get them a hat made too?

Reply #763943 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Atrocious

Reply #763945 | Report this post


Meatheads on and off the court !!!

Reply #763947 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

What is the point of this thread?

Reply #763948 | Report this post


Greybuoy  
Last month

So this what passes for "outrage' nowadays?
Amazing.
There wouldn’t be a sporting club or franchise anywhere that didn’t depend on having access to to a a supply of people who 'just get things done', for nix or near nothing.

Reply #763951 | Report this post


cosby  
Last month

sooners the 36ers fold the better

Reply #763954 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Hi Greybouy.

Reply #763955 | Report this post


KET  
Last month

"With millions of annual revenue", that doesn't mean they are profit machines, I’d put 36ers in “struggling business, surviving through public interest and good will of owners and sponsors”

Reply #763965 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Makes my skin crawl from how entitled Close thinks she is.

NBL teams typically make no profit and try to contra everything. There is an invoice involved so that the value of the contra can be established. Plenty of people volunteer nteer their time in such organisations.

Reply #763966 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

The Sixers only error here is not communicating effectively their budget upfront, and even then I put it down to the fact that the CEO and Marketing manager were ill and could not represent the Sixers.

But let's be clear on the rest.

The Sixers did not 'demand' anything for free, they asked.

I love the auto-outrage as well, just because the Sixers don't value Close's 'art' automatically means they don't believe in the notion of Reconciliation or the First 'Nation'. She loves to give weight to herself by underpinning her 'Culture' to her 'work'.

Do these people ask their Customers whether they subscribe to these Notions when invoices are paid? Didn't think so.

I sincerely hope the Sixers find an up and coming artist who will be happy to provide this art and get the exposure that comes with having it on the Sixers jersey.

Let me re-iterate, the Sixers should have been clear from the start (that is on them), but they have made no demands, and the lamentable outrage is out of proportion to the initial misunderstanding.

Reply #763967 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Entitled? She is entitled to be paid for her services, not led down the garden path by asking for a quote but suddenly offering "payment" in exposure and free tickets.

It's another PR screw up by the Sixers.

Reply #763968 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Slow thread day

Reply #763969 | Report this post


ANON  
Last month

I'm going to play devils advocate her and say it wouldn’t matter if she was indigenous or not if they have not budgeted for an extra design then most places would try this by using an unknown artist to try to not only get a free or cheap job done but also lift the artists profile
It’s nothing to do with race , I fir one am so sick of this race card every time something doesn’t pan out how those offended ( any race) want or expect

BUT having almost a year up their sleeves they should have factored this into their budget which although the offended artist seems to think is a multi million dollar one it’s far from that .

Reply #763970 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Hey ANON, just letting you know, playing devil's advocate doesn't mean completely misreading the situation and making a bunch of outlandish statements to support your position.

She didn't play the race card. She simply highlighted the "irony" of an organisation wanting to support indigenous recognition, while not paying an indigenous person for their services.

Reply #763972 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Last month

Absolutely shameful but to be expected from the clowns running the 36ers.

Reply #763974 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

FFS can you not see or hear that this devalues her worth and that Aboriginal people are struggling to find belief in themselves after being treated like ..... for over 200 years now.

What is the PURPOSE of the indigenous round!

She's a recognised artist,not a mum in your u12s and they are a PROFESSIONAL Sports team.

It smacks of white privilege, not a good look for a Club.

The Thunderbirds I'm sure PAID for her services for their Indigenous round uniform and are probably where they got her name from.

The fact that you don't think this is an issue or not worth talking about is disturbing.

Reply #763975 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

IMO,it does seem like the artist was led on at the original meeting. Shouldn't invite someone that would have had an expectation to be paid without first outlining it in the original invitation.
Sixers should have asked community to submit designs for the uniform with stipulation that design chosen would get season tickets, etc. Woodville, Forestville and Eastern (forgive me if I missed anyone) had indigenous uniforms this season by club members, doubt there was remuneration.
Don't know the sum we are talking about, but there are plenty of indigenous artists I personally know that would be pleased to submit artwork.
Sixers have stuffed up again, can see this appearing on Today Tonight.

Reply #763976 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Lovebroker summed it up well

Reply #763977 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

No he didn't. He dismissed it as a non-issue because that was easier for him to deal with.

Reply #763978 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

If the Sixers don't want to pay for your services, then move on and find someone who will. No need to get angry at others' assessment of what constitutes value or not. It's subjective.

Reply #763980 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

I would also add that people that complain about things like this should probably try to adopt a business owner's mindset. You know the person involved here doesn't when they reference the Sixers as a multi million dollar organisation. There's revenues, then there's costs.

Reply #763981 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Last month

The 36ers cocked up w/ their PR and general mismanagement (again).

The artist is an entitled, identity politics player.

Nobody was "exploited" - just a waste of everyone's time.

This is a non-story.

Reply #763984 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Entitled? She is entitled to be paid for her services"

And she is entitled to refuse the offer, as she did. There was no agreement, no services rendered, end of story.

It's not unusual for organisations like sporting clubs to rely on some volunteer services. The problem seems to be that this wasn't communicated effectively from the beginning.

I'm sure she is genuinely outraged, but I wonder if she considered this was an excellent opportunity to raise her own profile via social media for any media traction her story gets.

Reply #763985 | Report this post


The ignorance from the likes of Greybuoy, Playmaker and lovebroker is unbelievable and totally devalues the artist's time and work. Talk about out of touch. As a parent of junior bearcats basketball players I'm pretty disgusted that this is the example 36ers set. Thank you to the people speaking up and saying this is not ok. It's not. Thank jeevus some South Australians have empathy and intelligence.

Reply #763986 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Most South Australians lack intelligence.

Reply #763987 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

You could look at this through the business/client relationship if this wasn't something that consistently happened to Indigenous artists (speakers etc), ie provide their service for free/"exposure"’etc

We should rally against professionals not getting paid for their services in all forms. Just ignorant by the 36ers thinking that they could cop a free design here. It’s not incumbent upon Indigenous people to give their time and services away for free under the guise of reconciliation

Reply #763991 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"And she is entitled to refuse the offer, as she did. There was no agreement, no services rendered, end of story"

Except it isn't that simple. This wasn't the club looking for a volunteer, they were looking to exploit someone for "exposure" and free tickets. If they were up front about it, no big deal but the second they made it sound like they were doing her a favour, it became an attempt at exploitation.

Reply #763993 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

They should've told before any meeting that it was not payable, she could’ve politely said no. Don’t bring her in and start the process and then say , oh shit we don’t have any money. All you people saying she a winger go to work tomorrow and after a few I hope your boss sends you home and tells you went in for free.

Reply #763994 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

no wonders mitch creek did not want to go back to the 36ers, such a shameless club.

Reply #763997 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"The ignorance from the likes of Greybuoy, Playmaker and lovebroker is unbelievable and totally devalues the artist's time and work. "

The value of the artist's work, in a financial sense, is the money someone is willing to pay for it. The Sixers weren't willing to pay hard dollars for it. If there are others that do, then good on them and all power the artist.

I find a lot of artists seem to complain in this nature, but perhaps they're overvaluing how important consumers find their work.

Reply #763998 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Is their work worth zero?

Reply #763999 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Is their work worth zero?"

You'd have to ask the Sixers how much value it adds to their organisation. But they are not a charity. And to be fair, they didn't offer absolutely zero, it was just zero cash.

Reply #764000 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

not every boby loves your f***ing tickets, pay for the service or just #### off.

Reply #764001 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

work for free because it is good exposure for the artist what a shameless organization.

Reply #764002 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

To provide a basketball analogy, if Brendan Teys puts just as much time and work into his game as Daniel Johnson, should they be paid the same amount. No, because Johnson adds more value to the team.

Reply #764003 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

so Brendan teys should play for free and get some 36ers uniforms, merchandise for his effort? LMAO.

Reply #764006 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"so Brendan teys should play for free and get some 36ers uniforms, merchandise for his effort? LMAO."

Not quite, but it kind of speaks to the point. If some state league guy works his ass off, doesn't mean the Sixers should pay him.

Reply #764009 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Um the artist isn't a charity either

Reply #764011 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The artist provided a quote and invoice. If the quote was $250 it likely would have been paid. If quote comes in much higher then they wouldn't have a budget. Did artist say upfront her minimum time charge is $20k or whatever? There are plenty of business deals done where parties get together and then find out their budgets don't align and other solutions are sought. The artist seems to have little business sense and just views the world through her own entitled sense of importance.

Reply #764026 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

" Not quite, but it kind of speaks to the point. If some state league guy works his ass off, doesn't mean the Sixers should pay him."

you either pay the guy who plays for your club or don't play him at all, can't have it both ways.

Reply #764027 | Report this post


joshuapending  
Last month

This is often an issue for designers/artists people just don't value the work that goes into it and think "i could do that" a lot. The race thing makes this extra awkward but the core issue is just a professional not getting paid for their services.

Reply #764032 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"The artist provided a quote and invoice."

If you read the thread properly you'll find that didn't happen. The rest of your post is just drivel.

Reply #764033 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

She has good business sense or she would not be in demand or complaining about the treatment and lack of respect.

Why defend an organisation that does not conduct itself in a business like manner or display an appropriate set of values.

Up front they should have gone in with "we are a struggling organisation but want to do a good job for the indigenous weekend" and she probably would have helped them out.

The attitude was she should be happy with coloured beads.

Wow in 2019, I'm stunned.

Reply #764034 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

This is deja vu from the 36ers controversially recently offering a player a development player position without pay.

"Surely in 2019, large organisations with millions of dollars of annual revenue, are not *still* asking young basketballers to work for free... right?

Gosh it's almost like I've been here before! *cough* corporate internships *cough*

On Friday of last week I received an email from the Adelaide 36ers asking me if I wanted to try out for the team. I told them I’d be delighted.

They said they didn’t know what kind of budget the CEO and CFO’s have in mind, but "send us a quote". We parted ways and I went away and came up with a quote for my professional services to play on the team.

Before it was sent however, I received an email from the media manager advising me that he had spoken to the CEO who told him that the 36ers don’t actually have a budget allocated for a paid roster position, only a development player position. However, in lieu of payment, they were happy to come to an arrangement by giving me "contra" in the form of courtside seats on the 36ers bench at the game etc. They went on to say how this will build my profile because they have “92K followers” on social media (there are 46K on Facebook and 25K on Instagram but whatever man, details!)

iT wILL bE sUcH gOoD eXpOsUrE

So the 36ers are demanding a professional service, over and above that of a basketballer; but also bench support to vectorise a wicked towel wave, but are expecting not to have to pay for that service.

I’m assuming therefore that they paid the main rotation players in free tickets, caps and drink bottles, right? And the plumber who fixed the blocked toilet in the office (sorry about that, my bad) got paid in hoodies and giant inflatable novelty hands? I think not. Not to mention the fact that my professional services - my skill set, isn’t just aesthetic. My playing style is underpinned by my ethnic background - which is hard to place value on, except in an Australian open marketplace where services are valued based on supply and demand, but that value definitely isn’t free tickets to a basketball game.

The 36ers are holding firm on this, despite the CEO being told just how completely unethical this is. He responded by suggesting that I was wasting my time and theirs because apparently I knew from the start that they weren’t paying for it. Which begs the question.... why then did your staff ask me for a quote at the initial meeting? Now he’s; thanks but no thanks, “considering other options” which I interpreted as “I’ll find an emerging young basketball player to exploit instead”.

Also if you actually “really loved my game” like you said, then you probably should have googled me - then you’d have known that I don’t tolerate rubbish like this lying down. I know how to use social media for attention better than you. Due diligence, guys!"

Reply #764036 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Dear Lorenzo. Being a successful artist, plumber or uber driver doesnt necessarily mean you are a good businesses person.

There would be many companies who would steer well clear of her now.

Your implications are that the staff member knew approx how much her quote would be. I would guess there was a large difference between what they thought it would be and what she quoted. How much did she actually quote?

On the flip side businesses are constantly hit up for free products and services. Should they all say no we value our product or service.

How much do the dancers and other entertainment performers get paid?

Reply #764037 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The new 36ers logo and rebrand was all offered to them for free by a local designer. creatives can put blame on themselves for this becoming the expectation that we all work for free

Reply #764038 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

She. Didn't. Quote.

Read the original post properly.

Reply #764039 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

The attitude was she should be happy with coloured beads.


It's really quite lamentable that we have to lower ourselves to the use of 'White Privilege' and 'Coloured Beads' in this discussion with zero to do with race.

But it seems people need something edgy (it's actually not) to 'tag' a situation.

This should have gone no further than 'The Sixers need to work on their procurement protocols'.

Reply #764042 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"But after emailing them a quote "in line with industrial standards", Close was told the organisation did not have a budget for the jersey and would pay her in free game tickets instead of money."


how much was she going to quote?

she is so seriously out of touch. There is nothing unethical.

Many a time projects are prepared only to find out that the funding budget has been cut, reduced, no longer available. She could have politely declined their offer.

Any

Reply #764044 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

The Sixers need to work on their "Human Relations Protocols"

So for when they were looking to take part in an Indigenous event by gaining the services of an indigenous artist they didn't think they should conduct themselves in a manner that was not going to cause offence hmmmmm.

They smack of just going through the motions and not embracing the spirit of the event - reconciliation.

I'm not interested in being EDGY but fair and just and egalitarian.

Reply #764047 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Let's take race out of this and use "artist", not "indigenous artist" before it really becomes out of hand and racist.

Reply #764052 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

She's completely entitled and being a professional victim.

It's no different to being offered a job, you don't like the terms and conditions or pay, you don't accept it and move on.

36ers didn't want to pay her, she can say no and move on.

Simple.

Instead she wants to act like an entitled brat and paint the 36ers as showing a lack of respect to Aboriginal heritage? Pleeeaseeeeee, grow up and take your business elsewhere.

Reply #764054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"It's no different to being offered a job, you don't like the terms and conditions or pay, you don't accept it and move on."

No, it's like being approached to do a job but then being told there is no job but you should just take the job anyway because you really need to do this job no matter what.

Reply #764061 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

At least Lovebroker is prepared to put a name to his opinions.

We are all ENTITLED.

You value yourself or you wouldn't have expressed your opinion.

Come on - think about it.Put yourself in someone else's shoes.

The Sixers are in the mass media business,they are resonsible for what they say and do like all of us.

They need to be aware of their image and have values in their dealings with people or their business will fail.

Reply #764062 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Adelaide Turdy Sixers.
What a shitshow.

Reply #764064 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Just looking back on Illawarra's last year, they had a work experience kid do it.
http://www.hawks.com.au/news/article/hawks-unveil-first-ever-indigenous-jersey
"The Jersey Design is an interpretation of Aboriginal Artist Glen Sutherland's painting "Life’s Journey". With the Jersey design being completed by a local Indigenous University of Wollongong Student, Harry Pitt who is currently on work placement with Illawarra Hawks."

Reply #764072 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Meh. Nothing to see here yet the thread continues

Reply #764076 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"The race thing makes this extra awkward but the core issue is just a professional not getting paid for their services."

Did she provide any services? I thought she just provided a quote and guidance for what type of work she could do for them?

Now, if the Sixers said they would pay her, she did the work, then they didn't pay her - that's another story. But doesn't seem like that's what happened here.

Reply #764077 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

She should've been told up front there was no payment, then she could make her decision and tell them without wasting everyone’s time.

Reply #764078 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Most South Australians lack intelligence"

Would have to come from a KickAVic clown. Without sport Melbourne would be a dirty ugly concrete jungle full of the offspring of convicts. Inbred no doubt. Oh wait! It is a dirty hole!

Reply #764080 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Did she provide any services? I thought she just provided a quote and guidance for what type of work she could do for them?

Now, if the Sixers said they would pay her, she did the work, then they didn't pay her - that's another story. But doesn't seem like that's what happened here."

^^^
This.

Reply #764083 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

Well the Sixers should have been more clear upfront about their budget.

By doing so it would have given Close the chance to turn down the time and effort it takes to formulate a quote.

She has a gripe on that front, but that's where it stops, it doesn't mean the Sixers are fake or paying reconciliation lip service.

Reply #764084 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

I think many here are missing the point. The heritage round is designed to bring awareness, to educate the wider population as to the treatment of indigenous people throughout history. To show that they were exploited, that they were mistreated, that they were less of people due to race and skin color. The jersey is a symbol to bring everyone closer, to show we are all one and the same, while understanding and educating at the same time. Including an indigenous artist not only would have had a layer of authenticity, but it would have also showed that the organization was in touch with the message, that they were understanding. Note that this was a professional artist performing not only the artistic work, but also the graphic design work as well, vectoring the files for the team. They could have gone to a school and had someone submit their designs as some type of competition if they did not have a budget.

This leads me to my next thought, which I was surprised no one else has raised. Are these jerseys going to be sold, or are they players only for that round? And what happens to the jerseys afterwards? Will they be auctioned, or will something else happen to them? Surely commissions would be made off the design one way or another, so why shouldn't a professional be compensated for their work.

To me the bigger issue over compensation is awareness, and it appears from this situation the Sixers failed. It's almost 2020. We should be doing better by now.

Reply #764093 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

So another example of the Sixers being a low budget organisation with poor management.

Wow, what an amazing breaking news story.

Reply #764094 | Report this post


Shayno  
Last month

Damm those expose bucka sure pay the bills

Reply #764096 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

I feel like so many people have completely missed the point here.

Elizabeth is not 'pulling the race card". The fact that she is indigenous is relevant because the "work” is for the reconciliation round. She explicitly even says that the situation is “not racist”.

The whole point is that artists are continuously asked to work for exposure and free stuff. Free items (including tickets) do not pay for food, or bills, or clothes. You can't go to coles and ask to pay for your groceries with social media exposure! You can’t ask your electricity company to pay them with merchandise.

This is not about Elizabeth, but rather about the continued undervaluing of artists in the community. If you want someone to do a job for you, you pay. Or you ask for volunteers upfront. You do not approach an artist under false pretences and ask for a quote to only turn around and offer to pay ‘in kind’.

Artists spend years perfecting their skills like all other professionals. When you pay artists you do not pay them for the number of hours they take to complete the project, you are paying them for their creativity, their experience, their training, what they bring to it.

Take lawyers for example... would you expect to pay the senior legal counsel less than a junior law clerk just because they can prepare a letter in 30 mins in comparison to 5 hours for the clerk just because they can work quicker? No! The senior legal counsels rate is significantly higher to account for their experience, their training, etc.

Reply #764100 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Sixers are guilty for not being up front and telling the artist there would be no payment. Looks like the illness by CEO and marketing manager is a bit suss, then the underlings didn't do their due diligence if they knew the budget was limited. I'm sure there are plenty of other people that may have been happy with what they are offering but it's understandable the original artist is unhappy with their time being wasted and insulted their work is regarded as just being worth a few free tickets.
Apologise, move on, probably someone reading this thread will design the singlet and it's over.

Reply #764111 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Possibility of the Sixers having a budget for the service, but Elizabeth's valuation for her services being significantly higher than the anticipated budget, therefore almost forcing a contra based offer from the Sixers to try and get the deal done?

Reply #764112 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Move on.....age of rage in full effect

Reply #764117 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah

Reply #764118 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The artist has made it a racial issue the other 4 or 5 times over the past 5 years she has created press including many racist comments and crude comments from her. She has major form.

The only mistake made was contacting her in the first place. Hopefully no one else makes a similar mistake.

Reply #764124 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Get over yourself. The jersey would
Take 2 hours to design and probably 2-3hours to vectorise

Reply #764125 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

get over yourself. go wake up on monday morning and work for free for 5 hours you flog ^

Reply #764127 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Not talking the Sistine chapel here, didn't a 10 year old do Woodvilles?

Reply #764128 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/nitv-news/article/2017/07/06/qantas-asked-aboriginal-artist-work-free-during-naidoc-week

Sound familiar?

Reply #764130 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Adelaide somehow managed to screw this up even further:

Reply #764131 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Reply #764132 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

Sixers sure love doubling down.

Reply #764133 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

well looks like all the NBL teams aren't paying for the jerseys to be designed. NZ Breakers running a contest for kids..... https://www.facebook.com/nzbreakers/photos/a.433928876871/10156807612556872/?type=3&theater

Reply #764134 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

In saying that this particular individual is a massive crybaby when market force reality hits her.

Let me explain.

I know a number of mediocre artists who eek out a living. How do they do it? Via taxpayer funded grants from the federal government. It's a massive drain brought to you by Canberra. Under this system you can be an artist who is not commercially viable your entire career and still make a living.

In this case when interacting with actual private businesses like QANTAS or the Sixers and the market sets her worth at nil she feels outraged and unleashes on social media. Due to race the media publish otherwise non-newsworthy material about her rants, when her real issue is that she isn't worth what she thinks she is - the bubble of government funding has convinced her she can charge more than what her works are worth, make an income and be a professional artist. Delusion we pay for.

Reply #764135 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

one of the cheapest basketball clubs in the world.
No wonder mitch creek could not stand them and left for good.

Reply #764136 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

That is complete rubbish Perthworld. Why do you tell complete lies when you want to make a point?

Reply #764141 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

HPerthworld what utter bullshit. Her work wasn't worthless at all. She is a professional who was asked to provide a quote to design an indigenous uniform.
The Sixers then decided they had no money. No wonder many fans hate the sixers. 2nd only to the Wildcats.
Anyway on ABC radio this morning the Sixers are now a joke Australia wide.
They said we could have handled the situation fat better and apologised to the lady and offered to pay the quoted price.
A serious emarrasment for sure.

Reply #764142 | Report this post


Smith  
Last month

Dickhead hitting some key words here. Hopefully that bubble you've lived in your entire life busts soon. In the meantime, keep watching those shows that come on after dark...

Reply #764144 | Report this post


Smith  
Last month

Perfworld knows heaps of people.

Reply #764145 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Sorry, your quote is a little out of our budget, thanks for your time".

Crisis averted.

Reply #764147 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

So sporting teams offer these sort of deals all of the time regardless of a persons background.

Its not like the hand isn't out for pointless bloody welcome to country ceremonies all the time anyway so a bit of "artwork" for free tickets sounds like a good deal.

You can also say no!

Reply #764152 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

And here comes Reality, to bring the much-needed racism into the thread.

Reply #764160 | Report this post


John  
Last month

Exploiting people isn't OK. There is no justification for it, no matter which angle you try. Whether an individual or business, if you can't afford to pay someone for their time and services, then you have no business asking in the first place. Barter is fine, provided that it's a fair trade, rather than outright exploitation.

It's disgusting that anyone here could be so detached, or so lacking in empathy as to write this woman's experiences off. Every one of you, if someone attempted to rip you off, you would be screaming about it.

Where you say this has nothing to do with race - well, it's probably time to take a good hard look at yourselves. Reconciliation is about making up for the wrongs of the past. It's not about saying sorry and feeling guilty - it's about saying I'm sorry you've experienced what you have. It's about showing a bit of compassion and using that to help make some changes for the better. Here instead, there's no compassion or even a moment's pause to begin to try and look at where this woman is coming from. Instead we've got hand wringing, and blame being shifted onto someone for not allowing her culture and her skills to be exploited. "Move on" sounds a lot like "get over it", and "it's in the past". Things that are only ever said when it applies to someone else.

I'm sick to death of small, selfish, unthinking people.

Reply #764161 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Last month

Anonymous
A couple of hours ago

"Sorry, your quote is a little out of our budget, thanks for your time".

Crisis averted.

Wow. An anonymous with sound advice. Perhaps if you put your name to it, the 36ers could use you as a consultant.

Of course, you'd be expected to work for contra tickets. 1st consultancy service: "don’t offer free tickets for professional services".

Reply #764167 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

Bravo John

Reply #764175 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Well said John

Reply #764176 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Poorly said, john.

Reply #764179 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Some - probably most of us - don't bitch and moan to the press when we don't get what we want.

If the artist was offended by the 36ers' approach, I think we all get that.

That doesn't mean she should get what she wants just because she wants it.

Poor form by the 36ers.
Ugly, entitled, identity politics played by the artist.
Too many sheep on this forum, falling victim to shared outrage.

Reply #764184 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

No doubt it was handled unprofessionally by the Sixers (again).

It's scary how so many people have no idea about government arts funding and how it works yet because the reality outrages them they simply call you a liar. Now that's a bubble!

Reply #764189 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Some - probably most of us - don't bitch and moan to the press when we don't get what we want."

The artist didn't do that in this situation.

Reply #764191 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

No to many sheep on this forum understand how horrible the original people have been treated for centuries by this country. An hours work is entitled to an hours pay for everyone.

Reply #764192 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

Some - probably most of us - don't bitch and moan to the press when we don't get what we want.

If the artist was offended by the 36ers' approach, I think we all get that.

That doesn't mean she should get what she wants just because she wants it.

Poor form by the 36ers.
Ugly, entitled, identity politics played by the artist.
Too many sheep on this forum, falling victim to shared outrage.

Imagine if it was a white artist complaining - it would be considered a whinge and ignored by the media - we wouldn't even know about it. Going by the majority on here they seem to love the outrage though so the media are giving them what they want.

Reply #764193 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

No Perthworld, you have a history of telling lies to try and make a point. I'm going to hedge my bets and say that this is another one of those situations.

Reply #764194 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

Mediocre artists (of either colour) get propped up by taxpayer funding. It's a fact.

Reply #764196 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

No Anonymous, you have a history of telling lies to try and make a point. I'm going to hedge my bets and say that this is another one of those situations.

See what I did there.

Reply #764197 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Sack Joey!

Reply #764200 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Imagine if it was a white artist complaining - it would be considered a whinge and ignored by the media - we wouldn't even know about it."

Wrong again. One of the AFL team (GWS I think) recently advertised for a qualified physio to "work" for them for 3 days a week, unpaid. That wasn't ignored and there was an equal amount of outrage. There are many examples of media organisations who advertise for freelance contributors, thinking freelance means free.

Stop pretending you are across these issues. It's not about race, it's about exploitation.

Reply #764201 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Last month

I would like to know how much the Thunderbirds paid for her design for their jerseys. That's pretty much the benchmark.

Reply #764202 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Here's an idea 36ers. Maybe ask some former players if they know anybody. There's this one dude who played a bit of footy in his time, and was not bad I hear. Also good mates with a lot of the old Sixer guys and actually has designed an indigenous jersey before. Yes, that's right......ANDREW MCLEOD
Would've been happy to do it, and whilst maybe not for free, the publicity that would've generated is priceless. Get your shit together Sixers.

Reply #764203 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"An hours work is entitled to an hours pay for everyone. "

Right. She gave them a quote, not the actual work. There was no exchange of goods or services.

What about that don't you understand?

Reply #764204 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"It's not about race"

When the artist and many others make it about race... it's about race.

"it's about exploitation. "

Two parties not coming to an agreement =/= exploitation...

Reply #764206 | Report this post


ME  
Last month

If she weren't Aboriginal this would be a non-story. But because she is, the 36ers should have known very well the potential media repercussions it would have, and should have consulted a legion of Indigenous elders before even considering speaking to an Aboriginal artist, lest that artist find their conduct in any small way offensive.

They were trying to get the service on the cheap. It's as simple as that. All the inferences of racism (even though, yes, she is not directly saying it, but it is inferred) are being tacked on to make a non-story a story. She isn't obliged to give them the art. They didn't offer a deal she liked. Therefore no deal was struck. It seems a bit weird that they had a budget for it then suddenly didn't. But this is basically a non-story dressed up as a story by SBS and ABC - the usual agents of race bating.

Reply #764207 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

She can simply say NO!!!

Reply #764209 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

When one party tries to engage a professional, but then suddenly flips the script and says they won't pay for their services, that is exploitation.

The race part that the artist mentioned is that as this is for indigenous round then its pretty insulting for the Sixers to try and exploit an Aboriginal artist so they can tick a box, and not actually properly engage her and pay for her services.

Reply #764211 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Get fucked ME. you have completely misrepresented many parts of the story to try and make out that it's only an issue because the leftist media says so. Get a new routine mate, yours is predictable and ignorant.

Reply #764213 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"All the inferences of racism (even though she is not directly saying it)"

So the race-baiting leftist media is to blame here, but not you for suggesting that the race card was played (when it hasn't been). Every single time there is an issue involving a minority, to immediately jump in to stick the boot in, and/or dismiss things as a nonissue.

Reply #764214 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

Exploitation? Its negotiation and a party can say NO!!!

Thats called business....

Reply #764215 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

It's not business to ask someone to provide a quote, then say you don't have any money.

Reply #764217 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"When one party tries to engage a professional, but then suddenly flips the script and says they won't pay for their services, that is exploitation."

Nope.

Reply #764218 | Report this post


anon  
Last month

actually it is business to ask for a quote , to see if you afford what yoking them to quote on. Just because someone gives a quote it does not mean you have to accept that. I

Reply #764219 | Report this post


anon  
Last month

ME is on the money

Reply #764220 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Baaaaaaa!

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

Reply #764221 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"actually it is business to ask for a quote , to see if you afford what yoking them to quote on. Just because someone gives a quote it does not mean you have to accept that"

How many times does it need to be said - THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE!

Reply #764226 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

She quoted and they said we ain't paying.

People quote people all the time when they don't have the money to pay.

hence you don't do the work and we all move on, she has made this something it isn't.

Reply #764232 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Oh wow, you really are fucking thick Reality.

Reply #764233 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Last month

"It's not business to ask someone to provide a quote, then say you don't have any money."

This happens all the time. I had one lady once who told me she didn't have any money to pay for my work (once I finished it), and asked if I had any work on offer. I didn't, but I knew the only way to get anything out of her was for her to do some admin work for me that needed doing.

I had another a-hole refuse to pay me. After 12 months of giving me the run-around, he basically told me to F-off and wasn't going to pay. The work I did was of a legal nature in relation to his place of residence, which I then formally withdrew with the authorities. Needless to say, the fool will now be unable to sell his house unless I release my work, or he has to obtain the services of another professional, which is unlikely.

Reply #764235 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

In both instances of Jack's analogies, the work was completed before the party owing payment cried poor.

That's not the case in this scenario.

Reply #764239 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Those anecdotes don't really prove anything one way or another.

Reply #764240 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"How many times does it need to be said - THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED HERE!"

It's exactly what happened here...

Reply #764241 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Those anecdotes were in response to someone saying negotiations are part of business. Jack wasnt negotiating, he was being ripped off and he took actions to mitigate his losses. No one is suggesting that has happened here so I don't know the relevance of the anecdotes.

Reply #764242 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

So what your saying Jack is that you were pissed by what they did and found a way to get your pound of flesh.

Hmmmmm

So i guess you understand her going to social media.

I get that she had not provided the service yet but I suspect Aboriginal people might be a little touchy about someone wanting to shaft them.

Reply #764243 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"It's exactly what happened here..."

Have an adult read the artist's post to you.

Reply #764244 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

Watch the movie : The Australian Dream

Reply #764246 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Last month

Seems the 36ers have apologised to the artist, on Adelaidenow.

Reply #764248 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Evidently one of us does, 244. The other doesn't resort to calling someone he disagrees with a child.

Reply #764249 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

I can only assume that someone who cannot read and comprehend the most basic details of the post is a child.

Reply #764252 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Camel, that is what I read. They apologized, and have approached Eddie Betts to better educate themselves on how to handle the situation and the event. Criticize when being critical is needed, but priase when it is due also. A step in the right direction by the organization.

Reply #764253 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

If this wasn't an Indigenous art thing does anyone care?

If it was a quote/discussion between two non indigenous people/companies would this be blown up and require an apology?





Reply #764256 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Yes and yes.

Reply #764257 | Report this post


sixtiesrockstar  
Last month

So everyone is reacting to a facebook post. Good old social media. One side of a story. So people can post anything on social media and it must be true I guess. The outrage of everyone is so fake news. Sounds like a small communication issue.
I called the plumber too come quote a small job at my house. We have a bit of a communication issue about some details. I then vent and complain on facebook about his business. SJW.
If she doesn't like the way they go about about it then she should just move on. Or now maybe the 36ers should give their side of the story and trash her in public. Not good business sense for anyone.

Reply #764258 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last month

AdelaideNow abstract:

The Adelaide 36ers apologised to an Aboriginal artist after asking her to design an indigenous round jersey in exchange for free tickets and exposure — a request she rejected as unethical and exploitative.

Reply #764260 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Sixties, in your analogy you are both the unethical customer and the aggrieved party. Not sure you could have missed the point any more if you tried.

Reply #764263 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"I can only assume that someone who cannot read and comprehend the most basic details of the post is a child. "

Right, this is a very basic issue and not at all open for interpretation based on individual values etc. That's why we have a thread with unanimously affirming opinions and ideologies. /s

You're seriously kidding yourself, and fitting the 'triggered SJW' stereotype in the process.

Reply #764265 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

It's got nothing to do with ideologies and being triggered. We haven't even got to that stage yet, because there are a whole bunch of people who are dismissing this as two entities not agreeing on a submitted price, when the original post clearly states that wasn't the case.

If you also can't comprehend the basics then don't bring that SJW shit into the discussion.

Reply #764269 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

This thread is purile it should be locked.

Reply #764271 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"but not you for suggesting that the race card was played (when it hasn't been)."

Did you or I misread the very first sentence? There is a specific reference to "*Aboriginal* artists" there. If this was an issue of exploitation of artists in general, then wouldn't you expect the label to be "artists" alone? She might have good reason to make it about Aboriginal artists specifically, but that is indeed a case of her inviting race into the issue. She even gloats about googling her, referencing her Qantas controversy where she again references "Aboriginal Artists" specifically.

Does she have a point if this is applied generally to artists? Ideally, yes, people shouldn't be expected to work for free. But in real-life, being approached for work pro bono happens often, especially if you are a student, new to the industry, or at the other end of the spectrum, perceived to be sufficiently successful to be willing to work pro bono for a particular cause. I've been approached many times for such work. If it doesn't appeal to me as a worthwhile 'charity' work, then I refuse. Simple. Can designing indigenous round uniforms be classified as a charity work? I can think of reasonable arguments either way on that, depending on information about the 36ers which I don't have.

Obviously the 36ers could've avoided this awkward exchange if they made it clear from the beginning that they didn't have the budget for this in the first place and could only offer tickets in exchange. Many people are still willing to offer their services for free for projects like this, whether they perceive themselves to be professional or not.

"Oh wow, you really are fucking thick Reality."

This kind of line of attack is typical of the woke left when the issue is logically drawn away from identity politics, the only battleground the woke left likes to engage in.

Reply #764278 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

No, that line of "attack" comes from when someone like Reality repeats the same rubbish over and over.

Why do you RWNJ's just rant and rave about others being woke and SJW's and triggered while clearly not comprehending the most aspects of the issue?

Reply #764281 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

*most important

Reply #764282 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

I love how the left wing looney above basically auto replied with rage at rjd's post with no argument. Point proven.

Reply #764283 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

I get that she had not provided the service yet but I suspect Aboriginal people might be a little touchy about someone wanting to shaft them.


It is such sentences that cause the big blowout.

The Sixers conducted themselves poorly with Close the person, the artist.

By extension you have inferred that the Sixers conducted themselves poorly to the 'Aboriginal people'.


Reply #764284 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

What rage? I was clarifying why I said Reality is thick. What else needs to be said?

Reply #764286 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

I didn't attack the artiest in question just the general business practice of quote & acceptance which is common in many industries.

The artiest certainly can vent if she so chooses but the pandering of people and outrage that it was more than it really was is crazy.

A simple proposed business service discussion has been blown into a full on race discussion when its not about race but about a business transaction that hasn't materialized.

I'm sure may artist feel the way the person in question here does but hey that's life in the real world...just because someone calls you to discuss quoting work doesn't mean you'll get the job or be happy with the remuneration/package so hence you say know and find the next one!


Reply #764287 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

You're acting emotionally and irrationally without arguing any of the points being made because they don't suit you. "DERP DERP right wing nut job (I had to google RWNJ). Just shut up if you're only going to respond with labels that make you feel better.

Reply #764288 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

I'm sure may artist feel the way the person in question here does but hey that's life in the real world...just because someone calls you to discuss quoting work doesn't mean you'll get the job or be happy with the remuneration/package so hence you say know and find the next one!

Exactly, and that's why I mentioned the delusion many of these artists have when they interact with the real business world as they are heavily subsidised by government grants. Qantas and the Sixers brought her back to reality which has been too hard to stomach.

Reply #764290 | Report this post


sixtiesrockstar  
Last month

#263. I guess you were a fly on the wall and know all the fine details. There is 2 sides to the story and 1 person shouts in public as loud as they can. Maybe the 36ers had a few issues dealing with her too, perhaps they should have come out swinging about about how bad she was to deal with. My point is the knee jerk reaction and judgements on who is right or wrong that everyone makes about what happened when we really don't know.
The 36ers are in lose/lose situation so will issue mandatory apology, etc, etc.

Reply #764291 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Says the guy who called someone "left-wing looney"...

What points do I need to respond to, to your satisfaction? Reality continues to misconstrue the details of what occurred, it's been pointed out repeatedly he is incorrect, but he continues to do so yet you think the onus is on me to argue better? You're out of your depth here, Perthworld.

Reply #764292 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

It's very clear the 6ers f'd up. Don't know how the debate got so far away from that.

Some people prefer whinging about whingers so much that they miss all sense.

Reply #764296 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Because Reality and others continue to state this was just a simple disagreement over the amount in the quote.

Reply #764299 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Yeah i'm with you buddy. My point is they're literally emotionally affected (should i say triggered?) by something that is so obviously dodgy by the 6ers, just because theyre so upset that someone ~could be whinging~

Reply #764300 | Report this post


Lorenzo  
Last month

This happened over an event staged for Reconciliation.

Everthing to do with it is Aboriginal in context.

Can we just accept that the sixers were insensitive.

They have apologised and obviously will review their behaviour.

There is nothing Entitled about her response, she was obviously dissapointed they appeared to not value her work the same as others.She is a professional artist AND Aboriginal.

Can we not think she is a whinger because she wasn't prepared to cop it quietly.

Her Business Manager warned them it would not look good to the public.

Why did they not apologise then and say there had been a mistake made.

Are we not telling our kids that the "Harden up Buttercup" mantra is wrong.

Reply #764302 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Bingo ^^

Reply #764306 | Report this post


ME  
Last month

"When one party tries to engage a professional, but then suddenly flips the script and says they won't pay for their services, that is exploitation"

It's exploitation if the party receives the goods or services, which 36ers did not.

"Get fucked ME. you have completely misrepresented many parts of the story to try and make out that it's only an issue because the leftist media says so. Get a new routine mate, yours is predictable and ignorant."

Well that was frightfully articulate and balanced. A real MENSA member I see. Now, would you mind explaining what I misrepresented, or is it easier for you to just say "missrepresented" and go along with your day?

"Watch the movie : The Australian Dream"

Gee, relevance anywhere? lol. My god.

---


36ers fucked up, of that there is no doubt. For some reason they were oblivious to the sensitivity these issues require. They also kinda were a bit sheisty trying to get a service essentially for free. But this is a non issue being made into an issue solely because of how hypervigilant the media and society is now about trying to find racism in everything.

Reply #764309 | Report this post


ME  
Last month

^ and on the above comment it is worth adding that 36ers are looking for volunteers for... literally everything right now. If you look at their volunteer page they want volunteer food vendors, bar workers, promo people, bloody EVERYTHING. No questions asked of whether you're an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander in the page as well. Basically, 36ers are a bunch of penny-pinchers, and maybe they're doing it to fund the Entertainment Center in the early days or something, but in light of this I don't see much that was out of character from the club in this particular circumstance.

Reply #764310 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Reckon they'd ask if the person was aboriginal or torres strait islander when going to a well known name in the indigenous art sector ME?

Reply #764312 | Report this post


ME  
Last month

Not the point I was making. I'm saying theyre ripping off everyone.

Reply #764314 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

If you look at their volunteer page they want volunteer food vendors, bar workers, promo people, bloody EVERYTHING.


Jeez what is going on at the club if they can't / aren't paying for bar and food kiosk staff???? Those things typically make you money since people are prepared to pay for overpriced alcohol / food at the events.

Reply #764315 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last month

I once shared an office with a guy who wanted to try a business marketing plan whereby our joint venture emailed every accountant in Australia asking them to quote for us, then every graphic designer, every videographer, every caterer, every promotional apparel company, every conference venue and so on. Creatively legalish spam for sure, but I disbanded that business partnership pretty quickly!

Everyone is arguing at cross purposes here which makes it a bit of a waste of time. It's sad that comprehension levels are so poor or that people enter with such bias (one way or another) that they wilfully misread. Another forum I frequent has "argue in good faith" as a rule, and there'd be absolutely none of that going on here!

It was a poor move by the 36ers to not disclose a lack of budget, especially when asking someone to quote. For a freelancer, quoting is a serious timesink. If you disclose up front that it is an unpaid opportunity, a business can make an immediate decision to ignore or reply "no".

Separately, there exist creatives who think that no one should ever work for exposure or contra, as an absolute rule. I don't agree with them, but they can mount a high horse at the mere suggestion. It is what it is, and this incident is the junction of the two scenarios.

The 36ers have a long, long history of trading for work. I offered partial trades when I worked with them, but I was interested in basketball so wasn't overly fussed and had tactics that meant the terms were favourable enough for me. You only have to look around a basketball stadium to see how many contra deals go on - cleaning, security, signage, etc. I did laugh at the artist's mention of a graphic designer getting paid because I'd bet small stakes that the majority of design or media arrangements with the 36ers over the last 20 years have involved contra portions.

It's possible (even likely) that this was an internal club miscommunication, but I think it's reasonable to call out the club on your personal Facebook page especially given that awkward situation of inviting free labour on a reconciliation theme. Tweet-length might've been enough though!

Reply #764321 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

I'll do it.

Seriously, I'll do it. Comp me and my partner season tickets in a good spot and I'll knock out an indigenous round jersey for you.

Reply #764327 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Could you please send through a portfolio of your previous work anon?

Reply #764329 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"Why do you RWNJ's ..."

Stop you right there. I've been long known (on Ozhoops etc) as holding distinctly left-wing, libertarian views. It's the woke left that has perverted the left via identity politics, twisting minor disputes into opportunities to spread the woke activist message. To some degree this is represented in this thread. Unfortunately the loud, extremist minorities misrepresent the scale of their actual voice in society and spread their pathogenic extremist arguments via social media, effectively so with echo chambers that misrepresent the public's actual stance, helped along by click-bait media and its connection to the rise in offense culture, generating more support and disenfranchising the sensible moderates on either wing. This is why we have entered a global era trending towards political extremism. It is the woke left that has triggered a rise in right-wing extremism. I hate the trend towards tribalism in politics, but some labels are necessary to make groups distinct so that the sensible moderates can find a voice for themselves to go against the left extremists.

Reply #764335 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Just remember, you were the one who bought "woke left" into this, just because I called someone thick for repeatedly making the same daft and erroneous statements about what transpired. Bit hard to take your rant seriously when you played the identity politics in the first place.

"It is the woke left that has triggered a rise in right-wing extremism."

Um no.

Reply #764336 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"Bit hard to take your rant seriously when you played the identity politics in the first place."

Identity politics is not in itself the defining of political groupings. I prefer arguing issue by issue, but sometimes labels are necessary, especially to define the new extreme left. Perhaps its not surprising for you to deny the bounce-back effect in political extremism (especially when freedom of behavior appears to be restricted) if you live in such a bubble.

Reply #764340 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Is there any chance the media guys who took the meeting with the artist instead of someone in charge didn't actually know there was no budget?

Reply #764342 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

I must admit for free seasons tickets I'd put my hand up to do the artwork.

Its just a few colored dots couple of lines and with the help of my five year old, voilà singlet sorted.

My family are even indigenous so ticks all the boxes.

Reply #764343 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Can this thread be locked because it's just getting even more ridiculous now.

Reply #764354 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

Anons calling for a cease in discussion is the most compelling type of censorship.

"Its just a few colored dots couple of lines and with the help of my five year old, voilà singlet sorted."

I presume this must be a facetious post. I looked up some of Elizabeth Close's work and she's very talented. If she did accept the job, she probably would've produced something outstanding.

I thought last year's Hawks Indigenous uniform was excellent, probably my favourite NBL uniform in recent times. I had to look it up: designed by a University of Wollongong student that was interning at the Hawks, Harry Pitt, who interpreted another artist's work, Glen Sutherland. It's a shame that outrage gets you more attention than genuinely impressive actual work.

Reply #764371 | Report this post


TheOne  
Last month


They don't actually have a marketing manager, the day the CEO was sick, he sent two junior staff to meet with her, one of whom had to volunteer for six months (that’s right, no pay) because he really wanted to work in professional sports. He only commenced on the payroll in July and effectively is the work experience kid. How ironic is that?
The other was the videographer/photographer, who gets paid minimum wages and has to pay for his own equipment.
Neither had any idea what they were being asked to do, or how to handle it, so they said, "send us a quote".
Unfortunately rather than simply contact the artist when he was back, and explain the stuff up, instead the CEO was dismissive and rude to the artist likely getting her back up, when a simple apology and explanation would have sufficed.
Certainly she made a big deal about an issue which is fairly commonplace in the industry and extremely commonplace at the club, but it highlights (as does the Mitch Creek situation) the arrogance and disrespect of the leadership, and the culture of the front office which is rotting from the top down.

Reply #764374 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Anons calling for a cease in discussion is the most compelling type of censorship.
Except for the fact that it isn't censorship at all.

Reply #764383 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

We are calling for cease in discussion because people are now just rambling.

Reply #764385 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

You're really going on about nothing, rjd. I'm not even discussing the identity politics - I'm more concerned that many people have misrepresented facts that came from the OP, and are trying to dismiss the issue as "just business." Your comments about the woke left and living in a bubble are just not worth responding to.

Reply #764388 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

'woke'
'virtue signalling'

The new catch phrases that anybody who uses, had to look them up first. (I did) :)

Reply #764389 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

@Theone - people work for free as interns all the time.

Its very common place in many sectors and shows you are really determined to make it in the industry and value the experience the role provides which usually results in a job or similar employment as generally when hiring people are very impressed you'd got o those lengths to gain experience, it simply shows your hungry for success!

We've hired 2 people for the USA/India who both did 1 year of unpaid work at financial firms and is shows how hungry they are to get ahead and even accept the minimum gazetted wage just to get a foot in as opposed to many self entitled lazy people would demand wages without the hunger or experience so hence they are still unemployed!


Reply #764401 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

That's the point reality. She's not trying to make it as a young up and comer. She's a well known leader in her field. If an organisation like the 36ers can't pay her for her product, who will?

Reply #764402 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"as opposed to many self entitled lazy people would demand wages"

Dumbest thing I've heard in my life. So anybody on a wage is self entitled and lazy... okay champ

Reply #764403 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

So Reality admits to exploiting young people in the workforce...

Reply #764405 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Internships in Australia are illegal.
Think you owe some people money Reality.

Reply #764410 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

Nah mate we get them out of the USA where they do them.

Frankly it weeds out the wheat from the chaff when hiring as you know who is keen and hungry to work.

People starting out demand higher wages so we simply don;t hire them was really the point.

Like all things in life the cream rises to the top through hard work and sacrifice.

Back on the entire artwork thing shes said no to the free work so perhaps the 36er's could get an young up and coming artist to undertake the work for the great exposure they'll get.


Reply #764413 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

" perhaps the 36er's could get an young up and coming artist to undertake the work for the great exposure they'll get."

We've now come full circle and Reality has missed the point every step of the way.

Reply #764418 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

There is always a young person who is hungry for the work and exposure thats just the way the world works.

Reply #764425 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

To suggest someone who wants to work for free is better than someone who expects to get paid is ludicrous and exploitative.

Reply #764426 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Still ignoring the fact that it's illegal too. Classy

Reply #764428 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Reality probably thinks slavery was good because those Africans were hungry to get their foot in the door.

Reply #764429 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Reality is so dumb that the only way his business can survive is to illegally employ people and not pay them. Agreeing to work for free isn't a sign of a hard worker, it's a sign of weakness or pressure to cave in to your pathetic demands

Reply #764433 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"Your comments about the woke left and living in a bubble are just not worth responding to."

You do realise that Elizabeth actually mentioned trying to "look woke" in her message, like it was something she assumed they were trying to achieve, that having an Indigenous round is "virtue signalling"? So the woke left is entirely relevant in this: Elizabeth's facebook message was a textbook case.

Just curious, are you a regular here that is too cowardly to put any kind of name to your comments, or an intruder here for this particular controversy?

"Except for the fact that it isn't censorship at all."

We must have different definitions because censorship includes the 'suppression of speech', which locking a thread would do. I'm not running this site so they are free to do what they like, but if people don't like what's being written or the direction the speech is going, a simple alternative is to not read it.

Reply #764442 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"Still ignoring the fact that it's illegal too."

From my experience, I noticed unpaid internships are extremely common as part of university courses. I did one myself. When was this law enacted?

Reply #764445 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

She was pointing out the hypocrisy (or irony, as she called it) of an entity getting involved in a project such as indigenous round, but then treating the artist like shit so that they could tick a box.

In any case, that was her point, not mine. You brought wokeness back into the conversation because you think it was a legitimate response to me calling out a stupid person for being stupid. I just tried to get you back on track but you still want to talk about wokeness. Not sure what else to say from here.

Reply #764446 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"To suggest someone who wants to work for free is better than someone who expects to get paid is ludicrous and exploitative."

Just wondering, do players that attend training, but are not on an NBL roster, get paid? Or are they just there for the opportunity and experience to learn?

Reply #764447 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Vocational placements
A vocational placement is a formal work experience arrangement that is part of an education or training course.

Vocational placements can give students important skills to help them transition successfully from study to work, while giving industry and business the opportunity to enrich student learning experiences and increase the number of work-ready graduates.

Vocational placements that meet the definition under the FW Act are lawfully unpaid, regardless of whether an employment relationship exists or not.

Reply #764449 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"Just wondering, do players that attend training, but are not on an NBL roster, get paid? Or are they just there for the opportunity and experience to learn?"

Please tell me that wasn't a serious rebuttal to the point you were responding to.

Reply #764450 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Anyway. It just proves my point that people want to discuss whether this person has the right to whinge, rather than acknowledge that the 36ers are managed by a group of children.

Woke, left, millennial, racism card, whatever. They absolutely cooked the situation beyond anything you'd expect a professional organisation to do, and they deserve this backlash.

Reply #764451 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Using your horrible analogy RJD. If they contacted Jock Landale, got him in for a meeting, asked to provide his figure, then said actually you're a training guy and we'll pay you with some training gear... do you think he'd be perplexed?

Cos they didn't contact a "training guy" artist. Nor convey that they thought this was a "training guy artist" situation.

Fool

Reply #764453 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"Please tell me that wasn't a serious rebuttal to the point you were responding to."

It is a genuine question related to the quote. Do you have the answer?

Reply #764454 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"If they contacted Jock Landale, got him in for a meeting, asked to provide his figure, then said actually you're a training guy and we'll pay you with some training gear... do you think he'd be perplexed?"

It wasn't an analogy. The topic of discussion was around payment for work. But to answer your question, I'd guess he would likely be perplexed. I'm not defending the 36ers here. There was an obvious breakdown of communication and, as Elizabeth noted, a lack of research on her.

If, for example, Ben Simmons was asked to train with the Boomers for free during a training camp in a campaign that he won't participate in, and therefore not be paid, I suspect he might be not be so perplexed. So it depends on the situation.

Reply #764456 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

We must have different definitions because censorship includes the 'suppression of speech', which locking a thread would do.
Asking for the thread to be locked is not censorship.

Reply #764457 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last month

perhaps the 36er's could get an young up and coming artist to undertake the work for the great exposure they'll get.
Ah yes, that great marketplace for booming appreciation of indigenous art, the 36ers crowd! Instant money! I've been through it and wouldn't recommend assuming you'd get a cent from that sort of exposure.

Surely if you're going to the lengths of participating in an indigenous round, you allocate at least some budget, involve a relevant artist (even if just licensing their work) and then auction singlets to fundraise for an appropriate charity (maybe at the direction of the artist). Otherwise it's a pretty hollow gesture.

Not sure how many they make, but Port Power get one of their indigenous players to design/influence their guernsey, and it's currently sold out on their store. That said, they have a much stronger representation of indigenous athletes in their team and active outreach programs promoting the sport.

Reply #764465 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

All good points Isaac. Perhaps they could've even partnered with an AFL player/ team/ program. Or any community group. Perhaps a community group or charity could've designed it in exchange for some auction funds or something as suggested.

1,000,000 better ways to do this, but instead they gave it no thought, and should be criticised for it.

Reply #764467 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Surely if you're going to the lengths of participating in an indigenous round, you allocate at least some budget, involve a relevant artist (even if just licensing their work) and then auction singlets to fundraise for an appropriate charity (maybe at the direction of the artist). Otherwise it's a pretty hollow gesture.
If it's a league initiative they don't really have much of a choice. I'd imagine if it were optional Adelaide wouldn't be participating.

Reply #764469 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

I think that's the point Koberulz... instead of understanding and valuing the meaning/ importance/ reason for the indigenous round. They gave it no thought and tried to swindle a professional into doing it for tickets to a game.

That's what the artist's complaint is about.

Reply #764471 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

Trying to swindle is going a bit too far.

They failed to communicate their budget upfront.

Swindle implies obtaining by deception, there was no deception there was miscommunication. There was no chance that Close was going to lose anything other than the time she took to quote and complain on social media.


Reply #764490 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

"Asking for the thread to be locked is not censorship"
Perhaps my statement wasn't clear enough to state that I'm referencing a future state, the end product of a request, not that the actual act of requesting is censorship. Although requesting cease in discussion is a form of advocating censorship. I assumed this point was easy to pick up.

Reply #764493 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

If it's an NBL initiative, which it seems to be, perhaps the NBL should be funding an artist or artists to design all of the indigenous round uniforms. Didn't First Ever design the recent City jersey range?

Reply #764496 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

You guys are so caught up in arguing that you've forgotten what you wanted to argue. Just contrarian points all the way, where you can find them.

Reply #764500 | Report this post


rjd  
Last month

Greggo, there are many facets to this issue worth discussing, which involves the exploration of ideas. Not everyone is arguing one 'side' or the other.

Reply #764503 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

Yeah you could spend a life time debating the actual issues here.

But instead most people have gone with "she's a whinger, this happens all the time."

Reply #764510 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

I assumed this point was easy to pick up.
I got into a discussion on Twitter the other day with someone who announced a boycott of a comedian's shows because the comedian was violating free speech by saying they didn't like a different comedian's routine.

What I thought you were saying wouldn't be the dumbest thing I've heard said about free speech and censorship this week.

Reply #764511 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last month

The 36ers' statement is a bit ...

The Adelaide 36ers are currently talking with a number of interested Indigenous artists for the design of our Indigenous jersey. The club has not yet finalised who the Indigenous artist will be, but are happy to pay for the service or accept a volunteer service, depending on the wishes of the artist.

Elizabeth Close was one of the artists we approached to support us on this project and in hindsight we acknowledge it was not done so in the appropriate manner. In our learnings, we are extremely sorry for the hurt and offence we have caused to Elizabeth and her family and will ensure moving forward with these types of projects we do so in a way that is respectful.

The Adelaide 36ers are committed to celebrating the First Nation's Australians and beginning the journey to understanding and learning the spirit of reconciliation. To ensure this is done so in the most culturally appropriate manner, we have now engaged 36ers ambassador Eddie Betts and his family to consult on the project. Eddie has worked to support other similar projects in the AFL with great success.

Reply #764570 | Report this post


Reality  
Last month

Eddie betts is consulting? Lolz what? The dude kicks a football around for a living he isn't an Artist!

Surely the lip service with a consultant is more insulting than anything else!

Reply #764575 | Report this post


Greggo  
Last month

So they finally make a sensible move on you'll argue about that too....

Eddie Betts: indigenous person, 36ers ambassador, similar project in AFL....

Reply #764585 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

The 36ers' statement is a bit ...
At least they edited it to get Close's name right.

Reply #764598 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

The Adelaide 36ers are committed to celebrating the First Nation's Australians and beginning the journey to understanding and learning the spirit of reconciliation.


Trust this puts an end to any speculation of whether the organisation is genuine or not about reconciliation.

Reply #764622 | Report this post




 

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