Stroker
Last month

Female participation and pathways in SA

"SA Basketball's Commitment to Female Participation and Pathways
Basketball SA is proud to launch a female participation and pathways strategy. By 2025, Basketball SA..." as proudly announced and displayed on the BSA website
.
All good , we are going to make this a priority and do wonderful things .
Fast forward on a few weeks/ months to Season 2021 .
Now this is where I need your help .My simple logic says girls seeking to be high achievers in basketball want to play Div 1 , competing against the best in their age group ....as do their parents want to see them achieve that .
So BSA , in accord with its new FEMALE PARTICIPATION AND PATHWAYS POLICY , would be leaving no stone unturned to maximise opportunities for girls to compete in U10 Div 1 as that is the key pathway feed-in point . Or , so I thought ??
Obviously I got that wrong , for when I looked at the program for the upcoming 2021 season I found the competition consists of only 6 teams .
So four of the core BSA clubs ( Woodville ; Eastern ; Forestville ; and Centrals ) have no entry point to play Div 1 U 10 Girls .
So what does that do for our girls , particularly those aspiring to play at the highest level ?
Does that expend their opportunity ? Hardly
Does it mean we grow our participation in basketball ?
Does it signal BSAs intention to downsize to 6 core clubs ?
As a parent , do I have to take my girl to play only at one of the chosen 6 clubs , if she wants the opportunity to play Div1 ? And , does that eventually starve the other 4 club programs into female extinction ?
How do those clubs , without a U 10g Div 1 G team , feed their older age group teams ?
Perhaps someone can point out the error in my logic , and/or answer some of the above questions for me .








Topic #48072 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Last month

Really? How ridiculous.

It has been proven over a long period of time that U10 success and results have no bearing on future success.

U10 girls are 6-8 year olds just wanting to try basketball. Yes, even in Div 1. There are not a bunch of 7yo out there wanting to discuss future pathways with the club they are at.

In any case, most players do not enter district basketball at U10 age groups. U12 and U14 are the key entry points.

Are you one of those people who look for things to complain about?

Reply #831479 | Report this post


*  
Last month

it's only the old summer / grading season - so it may change for the main season in May

Reply #831490 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

Are you one of those people who look for things to complain about?

I don't think so , but I will let others form a view on that .

It has been proven over a long period of time that U10 success and results have no bearing on future success.

A very sweeping statement , without any evidence my friend .how are you measuring success .
I travelled the junior escalator , as a Div1 spectator for 10 years or so , albeit some time ago .
Some of my observations from that era are as follows :
The good players in U10 Div 1 ( and the Teams),in the main , inevitably remain the good players and good Teams throughout their under-age groups . My example would be Sturt U10 B in the era of my experience . They won most premierships across their era . Do the names Oscar Foreman , Leith Marston , Ben Evans , Jacob Holmes ring any bells ? They all started in U10 as a strong U10 Div 1 Team and were the benchmark right across their junior era . The pecking order remained pretty constant amongst the clubs
Is that success .... certainly Sturt , in that era , was highly respected for its program .
If success equals Senior Flags ...... then maybe you don't have to worry about juniors at all , just have a deep pocket and rent some players for a time !
If Clubs such as South , North , Sturt , Norwood etc invest heavily in domestic U10 competitions as feeders for their ML u 10 Teams . Based on your logic , they are wasting money !


In any case, most players do not enter district basketball at U10 age groups. U12 and U14 are the key entry points.

I'm not sure of what evidence you have , or it's source , to substantiate that claim .
Again , it is not borne out from my experience , albeit dated . At the club I followed , my observation was that it was extremely difficult for a player , without district background , to be able to make it in to a good Div 1 underage Team , particularly at U12 and U14 level . Yes , there were 1 or 2 exceptions based on size or from the country .
In the era I saw , the Metro SAPSASA State Team ( Year 7 / U13 ( I think ) was solely comprised of players from the top 2/3 District U12 Teams ..... and they all started together in U10 Div 1..... didn't notice anyone popping in from a domestic competition .

U10 girls are 6-8 year olds just wanting to try basketball.Yes, even in Div 1.

Yet again , that does not match my current - day observations . I would argue that most girls playing Div 1 are 9 , with maybe the odd 8 yo warming the bench .

There are not a bunch of 7yo out there wanting to discuss future pathways with the club they are at.

Agree on this one , it's their parents who have the maturity , and foresight , to want their child to play for a club that is well structured , managed with great coaching staff and a good healthy environment !
Its expensive and time consuming to support kids playing ML basketball !
For the sort of investment that has to be made for a child to play ML are you arguing that parents don't consider which clubs have junior development programs to support to see their child reach their potential ? I guarantee that most involved parents out there are able to provide a run-down on the strengths and weaknesses of each club .
Not every kid can play Div 1 , but most kids aspire to and see being in the Div 1 Team as something to be proud of .

Why do some clubs have great reputations for junior development and others suck ?? If your points hold , then U10 ML is a complete waste of time .

i RETURN TO MY MAIN ISSUE : Why is BSA spruiking its great Female Pathway initiative on one hand , concurrent with actually REDUCING female participation in its Premier U10 g COMPETITION ?
:)

Reply #831499 | Report this post


Crackers65  
Last month

Really? U10.
I would be very interested to see how many U10 kids are still playing at U18/20s.
Foster a love for the game and give them every opportunity to learn and develop
appropriate skills. Pathway programs open up to those that are good enough.

Reply #831502 | Report this post


metro & district  
Last month

I think you will find that some of the clubs chose to nominate a Div2 team rather than a Div1 team based on their view of the team's ability to compete - I would be very surprised if BSA rejected a nomination for an U10 Div1 team from the 4 clubs not in Div1

Reply #831504 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stroker, your second post is even more ridiculous than your first. You win the stupidest post of 2021, and it's only February.

Reply #831510 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stroker, the only way a nine year old is playing U10 in this summer season (which is the one you are talking about), they'd have to have already had their birthday this year. Nearly all top age U10s are currently 8. A top age U10 is turning nine THIS YEAR. When they roll out for round 1 this weekend, nearly all of them are seven or eight.

You really are clueless aren't you?

Reply #831511 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

How does Forestville not have a Div 1 team. So strong in the girls program over the years.
Girls that play 2/ 3 years of u10s will have a huge advantage moving into 12s.
South have done very well over the past few years in this age group as their kids start young and are well coached.
This seems to happen year after year, same clubs not nominating d1 teams in 10s.
As someone mentioned, if you have a good Domestic comp then you should get good numbers and talent into your District team's at 10s.
I'd like to know why the 10s don't get to play in the State Championships. All kids love Tourney play, so why are the 10s excluded

Reply #831516 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

Yep Anon , I concur they are either 9 , or about to turn 9 ! if my club is the norm .
Loving your attempt at personal insults :) as your alternative to provide any substance in you comments .
Looking forward to your insightful comments on the other issues that you mentioned !

metro & district : your comment may well be on the money ??
However , if that is the case , wouldn't BSA be a bit worried ?

Go on Anon . ... can't wait for some more of your highly creative and original insults .They are always good to fall back on when you have an empty garage :)

Reply #831520 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stroker, do you have a daughter in u10s this year from one of the 4 clubs you mentioned?
If so is she good enough to play 1s and would you move her? I would.

Reply #831521 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Can someone give me the abbreviated version of the above bullshit about 8 year old girls playing basketball, some people taking it very seriously.

Reply #831522 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stroker, if you really have such a long involvement with basketball in this state, then you'd know that most of what you're posting is wrong.

You're not making any sense whatsoever.

Please give it up. You're really embarrassing yourself. The irony of you accusing others of having an empty garage I'm sure is lost on you. More than one poster has tried to explain to you where you are wrong, yet you just conveniently choose to ignore the facts and continue on your way.

Here's a fact for you. Participation rates (as measured by number of teams nominating in junior grades) are far higher at 12s/14s than in 10s. That's how it's always been and still is this year. If you bothered to fact check you could have fund that out for yourself. So the simple fact is, MOST players join district basketball after U10s.

I'll leave you to it now so you can continue convincing yourself that you have any idea.

Reply #831525 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

Anon No2 : "Girls that play 2/ 3 years of u10s will have a huge advantage moving into 12s.
South have done very well over the past few years in this age group as their kids start young and are well coached.
This seems to happen year after year, same clubs not nominating d1 teams in 10s.
As someone mentioned, if you have a good Domestic comp then you should get good numbers and talent into your District team's at 10s."

Couldn't agree more . I think that's at the heart of what I have been saying .
BUT ...looks like you will join me in the abuse queue :)
I'm sure Anon 1 can hit back with some actual substance any minute .

Reply #831526 | Report this post


Big Ads  
Last month

Stoker, I understand your point.

My daughter is 9 and in Under 10. Most of her ML 1 & 2 teammates will turn 9 during this season and the following winter season. of course, she'll go up to Under 12 the next summer season.


Re the Female participation and pathways initiative, perhaps reassess in 18 months once the player levy has created the financial resources to support the necessary human resources to grow participation numbers across all age groups and representation by all clubs in each respective competition.

If there has been no improvement then BSA has some explaining to do.

Are you able to help your nearest club create a ML1 team/help the club lobby BSA to include a team in the competition?

Reply #831527 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

"MOST players join district basketball after U10s." Anon
That may be the case , BUT they make up the numbers in the lower Divisions , they rarely make Div 1 .
Even in the best Div 1 U10 teams that I saw on the journey only 2/3 made it through to play ABA/Premier league , or whatever the current name is . Yes , occasionally a late grower made it to that level from a lower Division , but in my experience that was the exception .

Big Ads
Today

Stoker, I understand your point.

My daughter is 9 and in Under 10. Most of her ML 1 & 2 teammates will turn 9 during this season and the following winter season. of course, she'll go up to Under 12 the next summer season.


Re the Female participation and pathways initiative, perhaps reassess in 18 months once the player levy has created the financial resources to support the necessary human resources to grow participation numbers across all age groups and representation by all clubs in each respective competition.

If there has been no improvement then BSA has some explaining to do.

Are you able to help your nearest club create a ML1 team/help the club lobby BSA to include a team in the competition?

Appreciate your constructive and accurate comments . Let's hope the kids both play well if they meet :)

Reply #831532 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

Anon No2 : "Girls that play 2/ 3 years of u10s will have a huge advantage moving into 12s.
South have done very well over the past few years in this age group as their kids start young and are well coached.
This seems to happen year after year, same clubs not nominating d1 teams in 10s.
As someone mentioned, if you have a good Domestic comp then you should get good numbers and talent into your District team's at 10s."

Couldn't agree more . I think that's at the heart of what I have been saying .
BUT ...looks like you will join me in the abuse queue :)
I'm sure Anon 1 can hit back with some actual substance any minute .

Reply #831533 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stroker yes I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I'm not interested in a slinging match with #1. They also have a good point that most players join from 12s 14s age group. The difference is those 10s with years of experience will already have sound basic skills by the time they start 12s, a big advantage over newcomers.

Reply #831535 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

Anon 2 :
Over the past year , I have had the privilege of watching some of the South U10 ( G) Teams as part of my re-entry to the junior scene . They are a credit to the club and its development program . Amazingly well developed and coached for U10s .
I may be incorrect here , but I have enquired about their juniors success and I understand that they have a really well organised and strong domestic competition that underpins their U10 Div 1 (G ?) success .I was informed ( hopefully correctly ) that the kids for their ML teams are selected from the domestic ( dare I say it -- pathway ) competition .

I accept that larger numbers of kids may take up ML/ DL BASKETBALL AT u12/14 . My main area of discussion however has/is about the Div 1 Pathway . My observation ...many years ago , I admit , was that most U10 Div 1 kids remained in Div 1 across the Junior age groups ..... and then generally in their second year in the age group . There was some , but minimal , movement from lower Divisions to Div 1 and even rarer for a kid to hope from U 10Div1 ---U12 Div1 ---U14 Div 1 etc .
I am prepared to contemplate that it is different in the current era , but I think that is unlikely .
So , I concur with the point that you made viz : "The difference is those 10s with years of experience will already have sound basic skills by the time they start 12s, a big advantage over newcomers." Thus , I think that u12/14 pathway kids are potentially at a massive disadvantage , for the reasons you outlined , in achieving a HP pathway for their basketball .
So , if there is some merit in that logic , the main pathway for Girls in SA Basketball ( U10 Div 1 ) is effectively 40% narrower than it could/should be ......at a time when we need to be increasing the pathways for Girls . So , the current U 10 Girls , at the 4 teams without a Div1 Team , are effectively turned in to U12 starters . I think that is a massive career disadvantage for those girls .


Reply #831543 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

One of those 4 clubs mentioned has poured a lot of blood, sweat and tears into juniors over the last 18 months and is showing big strides in the boys and some of the girls program. The problem was the girls were coming off a lower base.

Give that club another 12 months and I'm sure they will have a under 10 div 1 girls team.

Reply #831546 | Report this post


*  
Last month

looking at the number of teams I would say female participation is up - just not at all clubs, boys numbers are up a bit too

Reply #831547 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Some States don't even have under 10 representative basketball. Having u10s must be the reason that SA teams end up dominating at u14 Nationals every year.

Reply #831549 | Report this post


Anon  
Last month

My experience is that there is considerable change to teams over U12-14. A) You can't reliably ID talent in 9 year olds, B) the talent pool trying out at U10 is tiny compared to u12-14 and C) kids develop at different rates.

While there is an advantage to entering the system early (it is definitely easier to stay in than break in), it does not fully overcome items A-C above. Talent wins out. If your daughter is genetically blessed and a truly talented player, she could traverse through the system playing in the top divisions. But to avoid disappointment you should also expect that better athletes will be selected ahead of her when they enter the system.

It is worse for boys than girls because of numbers. And expect another readjustment around the top of u16 as kids physically develop and height and athleticism become more important.

Basically, what I am saying is the important factors in creating a successful player are things like genetics, drive, nous and great fundamentals. Playing rep as a 9 year old is not important, which I suspect is why most states don’t even bother.

Reply #831589 | Report this post


metro & district  
Last month

At least BSA is recognising that there is an issue with female numbers and is trying to develop programmes to hold players and introduce new players - time will tell if it is successful given Netball strength and AFL growth

Reply #831619 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

What programs?

Reply #831633 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

BSA do not mandate that teams must have a div 1 team. A club makes that decision and at times it is best not to. Losing is no fun. The reality is that keeping girls interested and parents paying clubs instead of playing in social comps hinges on both development and winning.
At the end of the day if a club chooses not to have a division 1 so as to not have their team slaughtered every week then I think its a positive as they aren't lying to parents saying the team is worthy of div 1 when every week its made evident they aren't.

If div 1 means that much to you, go to a club that has a div 1 team. If you want to be loyal then speak to the people making these decisions and get informed as to the facts of why these decisions have been made.

Reply #832379 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

Excellent response .
Have done , all sorted .
May I respectfully suggest that it is not a particularly good look when only 7 ( now up from 6 early last week) of the core 10 District clubs are able to field an adequate U 10 Div 1 team in the Premier Girls competition , for that age , in SA .
I accept that the new Policy seeks to redress the situation , but the unhealthy situation developed on SOMEONE'S watch .

Reply #832680 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

What new Policy?

The issue with nominating for Div 2 in Under 10s before the season even begins is that you're doing so blind. Sure for other age groups you already know from history what the talent level is like, in Under 10s you really dont.

Maybe BSA could organise Under 10s differently for Summer, or have a pre-season mini tournament so kids, families and clubs can get a clear idea of the standard. Guess work ends poorly. For many years certain clubs have played Div 2 by choice when they could have competed in Div 1 for the purpose of building confidence in their players, by smashing second teams from other clubs. I'd say that's a worse result for the competition as a whole.

Reply #832684 | Report this post


Jaclyndroky  
Last month

how come some blogs in a blogroll do not have their most recent post listed and others do? How to change that?

Reply #832687 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

SA Basketball's Commitment to Female Participation and Pathways
26 November, 2020

Basketball SA is proud to launch a female participation and pathways strategy. By 2025, Basketball SA will welcome, support and celebrate women and girls equally by driving inclusive opportunities to lead and participate as players, administrators, coaches and officials across communities and from grassroots through to high performance.

Source:BSA wbsite ( under News )

Reply #832693 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

How are they not doing that already? That's nothing new. Except it now comes at a cost to every single member. So we're paying more for BSA to do the same.

You've been hoodwinked my friend.

Reply #832698 | Report this post


Jaclynapoft  
Last month

I got collection of 22000 songs, and i would like to create own internet radio and DJ as well. Do anyone know how to do this in my blog page(blogspot) ?.

Reply #832707 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

LOL
Well , that underpins the point that I am making .
1 Something is wrong if the Premier entry point for Girls to the top level girls competition in SA does not provide a sufficient number of girls , of an adequate standard , to sustain 10 Div 1 Teams in 2021 .o
2 Great , someone seems to have noticed the problem and implemented a strategy/policy to address the problem .

3 That begs the question . Whose watch did it happen on , as surely a core BSA role is to provide leadership for basketball development in SA ?

Let's take the AFL as analogue. I would suggest that the AFL takes responsibility for the development , and long term of health of the game . Clubs play their part in the structure , but they don't have prime responsibility for the overall health of the Sport . I would think that the AFL steps in and supports individual clubs where they are floundering in order to keep the game healthy and growing .
Full circle : As at early last week 40 pc ( now 30 pc) of our core 10 basketball clubs felt they could not field an adequate U10 G Div 1 team . So , I will leave it to others to reach their conclusion about who is accountable for this state of affairs .
:)


Reply #832711 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

So if you're using the AFL as the comparison then the discussion needs to be more about Basketball Australia and not BSA stroker

Reply #832712 | Report this post


metro & district  
Last month

We should be positive that BSA has recognised the issue of female participation - especially given the strength of Netball and huge growth in girl's footy. My understanding is that the levy is to fund specific programmes to (1) encourage initial participation at junior levels - that is U10-U14, (2) improve retention rates at U16 upwards where there is the big drop off and (3) align and work with the Adelaide Lightning to drive female basketball exposure. It is early days and they should be given this year to develop and implement specific programmes funded from the levy - it is easy to criticise but surely this is a positive initiative.

Reply #832714 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Last year there was only 7 Div 1 team's in the girls. 12 months later nothing's changed. Same clubs not in Div 1, although Centrals are now on the D1 ladder?
Have you ever seen Junior Basketball advertised on TV. I see Footy ,Soccer ,Netball but not Hoops.

Reply #832720 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Last month

There is always a lot of obstacles to overcome, but I would be interested in benchmarking how SA fares against other states. I would expect Vic to have the most participation per 100,000 population, but if SA has a similar participation level as other states, then perhaps saturation level has been reached.

Reply #832730 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

You understand is irrelevant to me. Nothing has changed and their own statement says nothing will change. It's a cash grab. Again from the bottom of the food chain. BA and BSA need to stop hitting up the same people for more money and so some work to find alternate revenue streams. When's the last time a sponsor invested cash into the competition?

Reply #832731 | Report this post


Titan24  
Last month

All current programs are equally available to girls and boys. What they are saying is they are going to create, fund and develop specific girls only programs which are by their own admission sexist.

Maybe less girls want to play basketball. That seems to be clear from observations around the country and around the world.

Agreed, it's a cash grab.

Reply #832836 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stop the press! It looks like the u10 D1s are now down to 6 teams. What is going on.

Reply #832852 | Report this post


metro & district  
Last month

These are the participation numbers - Vic super strong in basketball as expected but SA the strongest Netball state in terms of participation %

National Ausplay Survey 2020 - Basketball Female Participation in a Club Sport
Age 5 to 8 9 to 11 12 to 14 15 to 17 18 to 24 25 to 34 12 to 17 15 to 24
SA * 13.3% 10.2% * * * 7.7% 4.2%
Vic 5.5% 17.4% 14.7% 16.0% 4.4% 1.9% 15.3% 7.0%
NSW * 4.0% 6.8% * 1.5% 1.3% 5.3% 1.9%
Q/land * 5.1% * * * * * *
WA * 9.0% 12.1% 7.5% * * 9.9% 3.0%
* - indicates statistically insignificant numbers

National Ausplay Survey 2020 - Netball Female Participation in a Club Sport
AGE 5 to 8 9 to 11 12 to 14 15 to 17 18 to 24 25 to 34 12 to 17 15 to 24
SA 13.1% 35.0% 37.8% 26.7% 16.2% 6.6% 32.8% 18.8%
Vic 9.4% 23.0% 32.5% 20.5% 8.3% 6.7% 27.3% 11.0%
NSW 9.7% 19.3% 23.0% 14.5% 8.9% 3.8% 19.2% 10.2%
Q/land 6.5% 19.5% 24.2% 9.2% 6.7% 4.6% 17.2% 7.3%
WA 10.3% 34.9% 22.1% 18.5% 7.4% 3.8% 20.4% 10.2%
* - indicates statistically insignificant numbers
Netball - SA is the by far strongest state in terms of participation rates for netball in "every" age group

Reply #832861 | Report this post


metro & district  
Last month

I thought the formatting stayed when you posted :(

Reply #832863 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Last month

My brain hurts after looking at that...

Reply #832864 | Report this post


Titan24  
Last month

The Ausplay survey is quite flawed, while may be considered the most accurate given official numbers are only kept for participants 16 and above.

Netball SA numbers have greatly decreased due to the impact of AFLW, basketball numbers have remained stagnant however. Netball numbers are high due to tradition and funding. They readily accept both of these as benefits for their sport.

Reply #832869 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month


"Anonymous
Yesterday

Stop the press! It looks like the u10 D1s are now down to 6 teams. What is going on."

Forestville came in to take the numbers to 7 Teams for Round 1
Then , in round 1 , it looks like Southern got belted by 50 + points and flew the white flag on continuing in Div 1 .

Disappointing .

Reply #832953 | Report this post


Stroker  
Last month

A changing feast !
Only 6 teams listed for Div 1 U 10G yesterday .....today back to 7 .
Southern now listed as having a bye this week .
Hard to keep up with ?? :)

Reply #832958 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Stroker hopefully they rejoin D1 and the other clubs get up to scratch and join in Winter season.
Dare I say it but does there need to be a mercy rule in 10s ie 20 up defence back behind the 3 point line. Gotta get more teams into the highest level.

Reply #832965 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

It shouldn't take a mercy rule but I think BSA needs one. A decent coach would find ways to keep developing their team, which would also make the game more competitive.

Unfortunately too many coaches coach for their own ego, and not for the love of the game or for what is best for the sport.

At the end of the day teams don't nominate for division 1 because parents want their children in a competitive environment. If they know they are going to get hammered they pull their kids out to play a different sport. How does that ultimately help basketball?

Reply #832971 | Report this post




 

Reply to this topic

Random name suggestion for anonymous posters: Pallas 64

Rules:You must read the Terms of Use. No spam, no offensive material, no sniping at other clubs, no 'who cares?'-type comments, no naming or bashing under 18 players. Learn how to embed YouTube videos or tweets

Please proof-read your post before submitting as you will not be able to edit it afterwards.



Close ads
Dunk.com.au - Custom basketball uniforms
Punch - insightful time tracking
Beam Orders - a quick, simple order and payments site for your business.

Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.

Recent Posts



.


An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 5:47 am, Tue 9 Mar 2021 | Posts: 863,395 | Last 7 days: 1,133