D2.0
Earlier this year

The NBL GOAT Debate

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D2.0  
Earlier this year

Ok, so the link above clearly didn't work. My Bad

Anyway, the topic was posted on facebook by the NBL, and links to one of their videos, with (predictably) Homicide going off about guess who.

Reply #887360 | Report this post


D2.0  
Earlier this year

At this point the debate is over the GOAT Import, but I think that it should simply be about the GOAT.

Here's why.
Cotton has only played a few seasons, compared to guys like Loggins, Gaze, Crawford, Grace, etc.
He is clearly a better player, but has a long way to go in order to match their overall contributions.
IF he continues on as he has done, then yes he'll surpass all those great imports. But at the same time, he'll leave Gaze behind too.

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LV  
Earlier this year

"Clearly a better player" than Gaze?

I'll have some of whatever you're smoking thanks mate

Reply #887377 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Earlier this year

I don't think you're gonna get any. Something that potent isn't just being given away.

Reply #887379 | Report this post


Boba Fett  
Earlier this year

Dazz.

Reply #887380 | Report this post


Isaac  
Earlier this year

Just a Gaze refresher:

2x NBL champ, 7x MVP, 15x All-NBL First Team, 14x NBL Scoring Champ. Averaged 44 PPG in 1987. Averaged over 30 PPG for his career even though he started as an 18 yo and finished at 40 yo.

Averaged 29 PPG as a rookie.

That Gaze is the NBL GOAT is just about the only indisputable fact in the league's history.

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Just  
Earlier this year

I'm as big a fan of Cotton's as anyone, but there's a reason why the debate is about GOAT import, not GOAT. No one is even close to Gaze.

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Sebastian  
Earlier this year

And anyone who shows Gaze like numbers won't be in this league long

Reply #887396 | Report this post


Senator11  
Earlier this year

Yep. move Cotton back to the GOAT import debate, Gaze will never be surpassed.

Reply #887399 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Like the Jordan, lebron debate, very hard to compare different eras. Love both Gaze and Cotton.

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curtley  
Earlier this year

Gaze would be a lottery pick if he put up 29ppg as a rookie today and never play nbl again.

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Cram  
Earlier this year

I think it would be fair to say that another few years playing at the level he is now would put Cotton into the conversation. It might be a quick conversation, but still. He's the closest we've had in the modern era I'd say.

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koberulz  
Earlier this year

The NBL was trash in 1984, though. No way Gaze would come in averaging anywhere near those numbers today.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Greatness has to be measured relative to the era you're in

Anything else and you end up in never ending arguments trying to compare different eras

I mean, if we ignore different eras, then someone like Jo Lual Acuil is one of the best players in NBL history. If you put that guy in a time machine in the 1980's he'd win every MVP. A 7 footer who hits 3s and can move like a guard. Players like him didn't exist back then. He would dominate.

But that's a trivial and silly argument to make. Just because JLA would win a time machine matchup with just about any NBL big man of the 80's, doesn't mean he's actually an NBL great

Reply #887424 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

But yeah, Cotton is getting pretty close to #2 all time in the NBL

Crazy to think he's the same age D-Mac was when he entered the NBL. Can't wait to see what Cotton does with the rest of his career.

Reply #887427 | Report this post


pattymillsMVP  
Earlier this year

x2 to what Isaac wrote. This one is not even a question. Gaze is and probably always will be the GOAT of the NBL.

Reply #887450 | Report this post


Old Mate  
Earlier this year

Can't agree with most of the above sentiment to be honest, to me Leroy Loggins is the NBL goat.

Taking nothing away from Gaze, but Loggins played at both ends of the floor (which Gaze never did) and he was a winner first and foremost.

The Tigers were one of the most underachieving teams in league history during his tenure considering the talent they had and the only reason that they won Championships in '93 and ‘97 was because the 36ers gifted them Bradkte and a bloke named Marcus Timmons was added to the group in ‘97.

Anyway just my 2 cents worth, let the debate continue!

Reply #887452 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

The Tigers were running 7 man rotations, they always had a few spuds on the bench

Bradtke only arrived in 93, and they didn't always have everyone- Bradtke was overseas in 95, Gaze in 99.

Yet they won 2 titles from 4 GFs. And went deep into playoffs on other occasions. In an era with plenty of strong teams.

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LV  
Earlier this year

The other missed opportunity was 2001-02

Gaze was having a stellar season and Tigers were on top of the ladder, before his foot/ ankle injury

Copes and Bradtke had 2 of their best seasons ever in his absence (Bradtke won MVP and Copes was unstoppable), but the Tigers lacked talent outside those two

Gaze came back for the playoffs, but he was hobbling. Anyone else wouldn't have played in those circumstances. He had the heart of a Lion

The Tigers upset the minor premier Victoria Titans in an epic semi final series where Copeland went to another level, before the Tigers lost the semi finals to the West Sydney Razorback

By the next season, 02-03 Gaze and Copes were 37. Copes' started declining sharply, and Gaze was never the same again after his injury.

So although the Tigers had the great big 3 for 12 or 13 years, the last few were twilight years and there were several disrupted seasons in Gaze's prime

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LV  
Earlier this year

Sorry correction- it was first round 1st vs 6th the Tigers lost not "semi final"

The other frustrating year was 2004-05 but that was unfortunately Lindsay Gaze's coaching that was the problem- leaving prime Rashad Tucker on the bench playing 13 minutes a game, while a 39 year old Copes shot brick after brick for 35 minutes. And D-Mac - who had lots more left in the tank than Copes- also coming off the bench

So yeah the Tigers possibly could've won another title or two but it wasn't cos the GOAT wasn't a winner

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LV  
Earlier this year

Tigers won* from 6th vs 1st

I really need to proof read when posting this early in the morning on a Friday!

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Cram  
Earlier this year

I think the Tigers as a club in the 90s didnt feel like you had to win every season, and letting players out of contracts to follow other paths was in line with this. The team was always super entertaining though and while I would have loved a few more championships, I got to watch them live ~20 times a year and enjoyed the hell out of it

Reply #887460 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

I was a bit late to the party, didn't start regularly attending Tigers games until 2001 (although I was at Game 3 of 97)

Even in his twilight years, he was beautiful to watch. Super crafty and still shooting the heck out of it

I was reminiscing about the 90s and early 00's recently after the passing of our great cricket icon

Gaze and the Tigers appeared to be of a similar mindset. Calm, relaxed, not as uptight and uber professional as some of their opponents (say Goorj's Magic and later the Titans)

In some ways Gaze's Tigers were the last holdouts from the previous era when sport was still about fun, heart and soul. The last remnants of an old culture, that, 20 years later is long gone. Much like Warnie was the last larrikin, the last chain smoking, beer guzzling sporting hero

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LV  
Earlier this year

Not that Gaze was a beer guzzler (he's a tee totaller actually) but to me, he still represents elements of the old sporting culture of the 70's and 80's that was disappearing by the 90's, much like Warnie did

The old days before sport was uber professional, full of robots spouting cliches and trying to maximise their earnings from their careers

Reply #887463 | Report this post


Isaac  
Earlier this year

On one hand, defensively weak players don't last long in major roles within modern, successful teams. But shrewd players within a team defense cope OK, and I think Gaze's game would've translated OK to now - he had the height, for one thing.

There are international players at the pinnacle that get by largely on their understanding of the game, even if they aren't overly athletic (Jokic, fat-phase Luka, etc).

Reply #887468 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Luka's defensive rating is apparently #1 in NBA amongst PG's

It would be interesting if Gaze had played under a defensive minded coach like Goorjian or Vickerman. CG43 is an example of someone whose defense has improved in recent years

By all accounts, Tigers training changed immediately as Westover took over. The first game of the Westover era, the Tigers smashed Wollongong by about 40, 103-61 if my memory is correct, in a 48 minute game. And they applied full court pressure in a way we Tigers fans hadn't seen in recent years

This is not necessarily a criticism of Lindsay Gaze, as his laid back style contributed to the Tigers free flowing basketball which was fun to watch. And successful.

Perhaps if Drewy had played under Goorj, his defense might've improved but he might not have won 14 scoring titles? Certainly it seems Lindsay's focus was more on the offensive end of the floor, compared to others.

Reply #887470 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Having said that, I don't think Gaze's defense was that bad. He was exposed as he slowed in his older years, and he obviously wasnt known as a 2 way player, but you dont have that much success internationally and in the NBL without at least being a decent defender. I wonder if the "bad D" angle is overplayed simply because he didn't shine at that end like he did at the other

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Cram  
Earlier this year

Yeah i think Gaze's positioning was fine defensively. Clearly he couldnt still with the more athletic guys and wasn't up and in their face, but typically he'd lay off them and give them the shot and if they're good enough to hit them consistently then well played.

He also drew a lot of charges (not all of them clear cut - Sorry Ricky) and rebounded well for his position. He's also I think top 5 in all time steals

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Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

Gaze didn't put a lot of effort into the defensive end, but when he did in big games / moments he could defend role players ok. His below average defence should certainly be considered in the GOAT debate though.

Reply #887499 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

He still wins with it being factored in, BTW ;-)

Reply #887500 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Gaze is the goat, he still only won two premierships though. Cotton certainly next best and premiership magnet.

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D2.0  
Earlier this year

"That Gaze is the NBL GOAT is just about the only indisputable fact in the league's history."

For NOW
And that's my point.

Cotton has played 150 games.
That pales in comparison to guys like Grace, Loggins, Rose, Crawford, Copeland.
(and yes, obviously Gaze)
And he was relatively late to the league. He'll be 30 this year.

But sure, if he stays in Perth, stays healthy, and keeps the fire burning, he could play till he's nearly 40.
And whilst catching the 500+ game guys would be a tough ask, if he keeps playing as well as he has, he could certainly push the conversation on GOAT Import.

My point, is that if he reaches that place, he'll be closing in on Gaze as well.

To be clear, I don't think he's reached either mark just yet.

Interesting to see how he goes at the end of this season. If he ads another MVP, that will restart the debate.
(Although I reckon Adams will have a say in that. :-))

Reply #887856 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Earlier this year

Tell him he's dreamin'

Get back to us in 5+ years and we'll reassess whether it's worth trying to compare the two.

Reply #887869 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

Cotton does hold the NBL WOAT citizenship application though so at least there's that.

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