absolutely agree
was watching 18 boys forestville vs woodville game last night at the dome. why in the world was there 2 teenage refs umpiring this game? it prooved very costly as they were intimidated at times by the woodville coach which left forestville preplexed on the sideline. wouldnt it be better to have the most experienced refs out there, particularly for under 18 boys div 2? there was one instance where forestville were bringing the ball up the court and thier guard was tripped because the woodville player had stuck his knee out as he was going past - he lost control, turn over - 2 points to woodville. later in the game, the same guard for the eagles picked up the ball from the ground (loose ball) and scooped it to a team mate - this was called travel. and throughout the hole game, the woodville coach was yelling out "travel" whenever the eagles post men had the ball. whats with that?? he contiunally yelled out "foul" whenever his boys were forced to take a tough shot. this is why experienced refs should have been umpiring, so that they could have told thier coach to calm down despite the situation he was in. yes, preliminary finals are huge games, but there needs to be a line drawn in the sand. in actual fact, just thinking about the games last night at the dome (which is one of 2 venues used last night) all the refs there were young and what some would say, inexperienced. good luck for all teams in the GF next week!

i think the reffing so far in the finals has been average.could be better but int that bad

Did someone tell the refs in the finals that post players were to be fouled as much as possible before calling anything?

Any maybe all those refs not reffing could control the clock - some shocking timing decisions last night were seen at the Dome.

when you have parents doing scoring duties during close games you have to expect errors. they don't do it on purpose the errors that is. they are not experienced in tough situations and are only there because their children are playing.

go easy on them they are only human they get caught up with the game and are really trying their best and would be mortified at making an error that could hurt their own team/s.

rostering a third ref for clock / bench duties during finals is / has been on the cards for a while.

I think it is about time - again it depends on the ability of the operator

I'mnot having a go at the parents at all. Refs HAVE to be aware of the clock situation.

ah Libertine you expect ref's to be able to watch the fouls on the court, the behaviour of the coaches on the sidelines, make decisions on calls, etc AND watch the time clock to....gotcha .. are they allowed to breathe at the same time?

No...refs have to be incontrol of everything, know everything that is happening on that court, in the stadium, in the basketball world in general, and also be able to have a running analysis of all current political events in case they are asked...AND BE PERFECT AT ALL OF THIS AT THE SAME TIME.

It is about the same time the same people stop creating the same threads, bagging out the refs, and got off their butts, and offered to do some reffing themselves.

The majority of refs know if they have had a bad game, just as the players are. But of course, the refs dont go around for 5 days afterwards (oh, did you see that dunk #5 Red attempted? Off the backboard and went 10 rows deep, what a loser!!"...no, the refs let the players play, and the coaches coach...why cant the players and the coaches let the refs ref!!

For those who still havent got the message.....UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO REF GAMES YOURSELF, STOP THE CRITICISMS!

Whoops, lol.............
As a ref myself and having had educated young refs in the local league, the majority of these young refs DO try their best and DO take on board any constructive critisism during the season. Finals on the other hand can become another issue. If the junior ref has done well during the season and gets the opportunity to umpire finals they may sometimes come across as not being ready to step up when nerves kick in. They can on occasions call the wrong descision , but hey......to err is human. If the UIC didn't think the umprire was ready to step up they wouldn't get the finals. Some coaches and parents cannot be pleased all of the time and need to understand that umpiring basketball can be a complex duty. Just as an example at Marion yesterday, the junior refs umpiring, once over nerves did a great job. There were a few missed calls and a few confusing calls in the first half, but when the UIC had his half time chat things seemed to be a little easier for them. It doesn't matter what age group is being umprired there are always going to be discrepencies regarding descisions. Those kids that are out there giving it a go and every game that they umpire is a learning curve. One of the hardest things for them to get their head around is to focus on the game and block out what is going on around them. Whatever sport you ref your interpretation is never going to be agreed with all of the time, but without refs, good or bad, the game would not get played. So as has been said before in previous posts, if you are not happy with the reffing, do your course and don your whistle.

alot of the people that bag the reffs dont know what there talking about. as being a reff my self i know how hard it is to reff a game thats so close. when people bagg a reff for making a wrong call it puts alot of presure on them. if people didnt bagg the reffs it would take alot of presure off them and i believe they would be able to reff the game better unless your an old experiance reff and your not bother by critisism. so lay off the reffs and let then=m do there job

I wasnt directly baggin the referee's, the point i was trying to get across was perhaps different combinations of referees should have done the games they deserved, and some of the referees that missed out perhaps should have got games.
Im all for younger referees getting opportunities if their ready as this is a good way to help develop them, but at the same time caution must be taken to which games these referees get.

Freddy you raise good points but if either players or referee's don't get experience in tight situations they will never progress. I'm sure there are times when players make grand finals or finals for the first time and make mistakes they normally wouldn't make during a round robin series. I'm equally sure that referee's and players alike don't start out to make mistakes and a 'mistake' or an 'error of judgement' in both circumstances becomes a value judgement. One spectator or parent may believe player a should have passed to player b well before they did, another may see that the player did the right thing in that instance. Ditto with referee's. And your original point about ref's on games who you didn't think should be there and ones who should be on the games watching. I don't think it is either possible nor productive for the same senior or experienced referee's to do all games. After all they can become senior with age, but they only become experienced with time and opportunity. They can not get the opportunity if you put the same seasoned referee's on all games.

Here, here ahem! Well said

It's just weird that in the 4 finals games I've particpated in as a player and coach, as well as the numerous ones I've watched, that there seems to be ALOT of calls being 'let go' inside the paint.

My point was that not all parents understand the clock rules - ie clock not switched on till ball is touched by a player, 'clock stops when whistle goes' (hmm). Would it be logical for refs not rostered on for the game (number permitting) to work the clock during Finals to stop posts like this and indiscretions from happening?

guess you don't know your clock rules either libertine, or at least the finer points of it!

I leave you to try to puzzle that one out!

Let me know, I'm more than willing to be taught the proper rules, considering I'm probably going to restart refereeing again. From what I've seen in games (played, coached, watched and told by refs), the clock doesn't start when you pass it in (ie from the baseline after a foul) until a player touches it. Is that wrong? Jirachi, Grey Area? Might explain a bit if it was!

Hey I've got a good idea...........Let's do a scoring course for parents, I don't think I'm out of line for saying that. It would then give the refs a chance to explain what does go on, we have ref courses and coach courses............

Swish most clubs do run courses for the parents if they are interested. And I do believe they are welcome to attend STOP level one courses.

Libertine in the few games I've timed:) the clock is turned on when the umpire indicates by dropping their arm - or chopping time in. Unless ahem knows more than me which is possible.

Realistically the clock starts when it touches a player or is touched by a player on court. Unlike the shot clock where the player needs to have control of the ball the time clock will start if the ball touches or is touched by a player on court - no control is needed.

One example of the clock stopping without a whistle is a time out on a made basket. The rule book if I remember rightly states that the clock stops on the referee's signal of a raised arm.

Scoretable officials like referee's go through accrediation and levels sitting exams and are evaulated. It isn't as easy as it seems and juniors are particular hard because you have multiple courts in close proximity with a lot of whistles. Players and coaches alike requesting timeouts and subs it is enough to make you nervous it takes a lot of experience to concentrate on the game in progress and not be distracted by the antics of others.

Chopping their arm in, that's interesting, thanks for that. I can remember in one particular scenario that I'm referring to that the ref didn't have his arm up because I noticed he was playing with his whistle, but I'm unsure of the others!

Personally, I believe the refs should control the clock for situations where it has to STOP, because they 'dont watch the clock' - unbiased referees one would assume would be able to stop the clock at the correct point.

Libertine not sure what you mean about ref's stopping the clock.

I believe at the world champs back in 2002 they trialled a clock that stopped on the ref's whistle and the ref started the clock by touching a button on their belts - so I believe but as some ref's and I am talking nationally as well as internationally don't necessary blow the whistle all the time it could cause some confusion!


I have timed many games at all types of levels and not all refs chop time in. Some run down the court a few steps with their arms raised. Give them some latitude they have a lot to do.

The clock does start when the ball touches or is touched by a player on court.

What are you talking about with unbaised ref's are you still talking clock situations. I think I've read that you don't believe their are enough good ref's to go around now you expect them to man the clock as well.

Juniors are a learning ground for everybody. Players are learning each and every game, as a coaches no matter how long they have been coaching. No two situations will ever be the same.

It is harsh if a team loses because a timer makes an error, or a scorer doesn't write a score down. But at junior level you can't expect perfection. You can only work with what you have and believe everyone is working to the best of their ability. It just might be their ability isn't to the standard you desire.

And Libertine in all my years of basketball. In all levels and facets that I have been involved I've yet to see anyone who cheats. Bad days, bad calls, bad games by players, bad subs by coaches all have impacts on games.

It is what makes this game of ours interesting.

I think it's interesting people want a different mix of refs reffing the game, and then also want refs running the clock, I just wonder where these people propose we get all these refs?

You want senior refs...well, guess what. Senior refs used to be junior refs once, who were given their chances to grow and expand their knowledge by doing finals, and reffing higher standards.

Yet, now you want senior refs on the games, but dont want the junior refs there to get to a senior ref level.

I understand that perfection will never occur - I wasn't being pedantic, only trying to make sense of my situation [:)] but it is hard to accept that a 3 second delay occurs between hearing a referee's whistle, and pressing down the finger which has been on the button and is poised to do so at the call of said whistle, and everyone on both sides of the bench immeadately looks up and watches time continue to tick down. This is not sour grapes, let me set this straight - I've seen it happen too many times in close finals over the past 12 or so years I've been involved.

Of course human error exists - but at the same token, I do believe refs who've been trained to know the rules properly should man the clocks during finals - they used to do it when I played social back in U10s and U12s etc at my local stadium, I don't see why they can't do it when they only use one stadium (Thursday) or two stadiums (Friday - not sure about Saturdays) for the preliminary finals.

I NEVER said I don't believe that there are good enough refs to go around AT ALL. Although I can easily state that when the more experienced/better referees are umpiring, there is less controversy - its a learning ground, it is understood! I don't know where you got that from - all I've stated in this post is that there has seemed to be some sort of directive to allow play to 'continue' inside the paint - calls that had been made consistently throughout the season were not called throughout the 4 finals games I have undertaken (with 1 more still to come), leaving me to think it is too much of a coincidence.

Anyway rant over, I'll shuddup now (which Deano will agree is an improvement).

If refs were to be on the clock for finals, they would have to be paid for their time. Something which I doubt BASA would agree too.

The referee of the U18B2 game is goog enough to be used in our (Senior) Division 3 finals so I think that he is experienced enough to do the game in question. As for the umpire of the match, he has been regularly refereeing the (Senior) Division 3 competition this year so I would also say that he is up to refereeing the game in question.

The referees don't change their style because it's finals time. There was no direction to call more/less in the keyway.

Thanks.

Some of the refereeing over the weekend was good. The boys at Pasadena on Saturday morning did a good job and some of the younger ref's stood up to the amount of parent's complaints on the side line.
Friday at the Dome I thought (only the games I watched) where inconsistent. It is hard when you have a good ref and a ref 'having a bad day' then you get this inconsistency that the parents, players and coaches get frustrated with. Not having ago at all with the ref's. They did a good job and did not affect any of the results.
Good luck to everyone in finals this weekend.

Who would you like to have referee your game anyway?

Some experienced refs don't make for good juniors refs.

Some will let you get away with a lot and some nothing.

i say have on experienced reff and one inexsperienced reff. that way the experienced reff cnat help the other reff .