I ask the question is the MSBL 2019 one of the weakest seasons we have seen in quite a while. also other than stewart and braun is this the weakest crop of imports we have seen in quite a while .
after viewing a number of games this season I believe so !! thoughts.
It does seem weaker in some levels but i dont know if its as bad as one might think?
you still have guys like Greg Hire and Clint Steindl in the league from the Wildcats
Marshall Nelson and Caleb Davis have returned from NBL rosters to play SBL and are killing it. Cody Ellis being an ex D1 college player and NBL player also playing.
Ernest Ross is an ex NBL guy who could proabably still play at that level. he is a great player in our league
Pesava has just returned from Germany and will be a tough player in our league
Someone mentioned in the April thread Louis Timms is putting up import level numbers
Gavin Field is still as tough as they come, just doesnt have anyone around him
There are some high level imports outside of Braun and Stewart. Caleb White and Josh Richart are both high quality and come from good D1 programs. Lasher, Wall, Livingston are all pretty solid. Jay Bowie at full health is a really solid import.
You still have guys like Purser doing their thing and playing at a high level.
Where i think we are down is losing players like Brian Michaels, Loch Cummings, Rhys Vague, Daniel Grida, Sunday Dech to these other leagues like NBL1 or NZNBL
Yeah true.. but you go back just 7-8 years to the 2011 and then 2012 season, you had actually NBL players going at it. Luke Neville kakamunda battled Tom Jervis, but Jervis also shares minutes with Paul Rogers and Sam Harris. Peter Crawford played for Hawks. Cam tovey at willo. Justin Brown and Jesse Wagstaff at Redbacks. Steven Weigh player for east Perth. I mean it was such a better league on all fronts.
^ re the above - I think you are generalising a bit here.
For starters, all those players were not in the league during the same season and almost all were not playing SBL when they were anywhere close to the peak of their careers.
When Jervis was in the SBL he was either (a) not on an NBL roster or (b) playing limited bench minutes.He wasn't the player he became after breaking into the NBL.
Neville never played full seasons and Rogers was at the tail end of his career. Harris was an average NBL player and didn't have much impact in the SBL.
Tovey, Weigh, Brown, Wagstaff and PC were probably closest to their best when in the SBL but generally these guys took the spot of a second import. Most of the top teams now have 2 x imports plus third NBL/fringe nbl talent.
These things go in cycles and often depend on quality of imports. I agree that this year the NZBL has drained the league of some good young talent.
The above is not a generalization at all. If you need to downplay that those players are at the "end of their career" then where are the guys now at the end of their career? Cody Ellis? No one plays here. And then to add to it the young players go play east coast. Why? Because of the exposure. There is no exposure for players playing the SBL hence why no one comes here to play. No live stream. No NBL1 tv show. Nothing.
The true test will be Marshall Nelson. Kid is killing it right now in the SBL and has just come off a year as a contract player in the NBL. Coming here was a risk. Will he sign with a club next season? Or end up as another Cody Ellis?
the S.B.L was at its strongest during the early to mid 90"s .
roland brooks,james Jackson,mark mccarthry,ken Epperson,vince Kelly ,james fitch,joe regneir,steve eyle,nick morken,stacey Williams,snoopy graham ,jerry Everett,donald whiteside ,doc earl,c-j Jackson,steve Williams,al Erickson,kelly Houston,carl condor,peter stewart,pete Hansen,brian fungisland,dan hunt,and many many more whos names escape me.
luc Longley,andrew vlahov,martin cattalini,cj bruton,james Harvey,ben pepper all Australian reps - probably missed a couple as well
I haven't even named the aussie boys . Clarke,brown, etc
its a no brainer - lot more competitive , lot more physical .lot more skilful, lot smarter
however I will say this this they weren't as atheletic as they are know .
there you go JR.
Yep, I would agree with you that the SBL was at it's strongest in the early/mid 90's. But that was the case with basketball overall.
If you look back at the NBA, NBL and European basketball and asked the same question... the answer would be the late 80's through to the early/mid 90's.
Anonymous and Lukosius.. you got me dead on.. early to mid 90's.. so much talent that the wildcat guys would
Play and be a lot better than average but nowhere near as dominant as imports were.. unlike today.
There are so many you could mention on top of what anonymous did.. here are a couple. Chris "hard to handle" Sandle and Dapreis Owens..
I remember Owens playing an sbl all star vs wildcats game in his first couple of days here and dominating to the point that Hurley had to double team him. He dunked all over Chris Carroll and split his face open with his knee when Carroll (foolishly) tried to take a charge.
Sandle had a similar story getting almost 60 against East Perth in his first couple of days here. In the US he was famous for dominating inside and then hitting 3’s as soon as a bigger defender got assigned to him.. mad talent.. RIP
I would suggest other factors at play here that make it difficult to compare across time. What about the number of players that go to college now vs previously? The number of NBL teams currently vs previously? The money factor too - more players overseas/elsewhere making a buck, euro/bbl and now nznbl. Has the switch of NBL from winter to summer had an effect?
KR mate the NBL of the mid 90's would absolutley kill the NBL of current
barring Luc Longley all of our elite level talent was playing in the NBL at that point in time. On the international stage they were top 5 in the world. Longley never played with the boomers during that era so pretty much our entire national team was made up of NBL players.
Even if you took the best players in the NBL, imports included and put them into an olympic tournament there is no way they have the talent to compete for a medal.
In judging the level of import talent in the NBL at that time, the guys like Derrick Rucker, Ricky Grace, Lenard Copeland, James Crawford, Darrel McDonald, Leon Trimmingham, Melvin Thomas, Scott Fisher these guys were incredible in our league. Looking at the imports nowadays you might only put say Cotton and Ware in that same echelon.
nowadays our best national rep level guys are all in the NBA and big euro leagues. there might be a small number of actual NBL players rounding out the boomers roster but the core of that boomers team are NBA guys.
Ofcourse SBL is weaker, and year by year this will continue.
If your any good these days you generally go to college or overseas, even more recently eastern states and NZ.
Opportunity and access to college is a lot easier now.
SBL in 2019 is weakest it has ever been.
The current import pool is easily the weakest its been.
Your K.Davis and M.Barrows who are probably half they players they used to be in years gone by are still in top section of imports.
At the lower end of the import scale there is a handful of guys that are terrible and wouldn't be in the league in previous years.
Imports used to be 20&10 of considered a bust.
What's the SBL doing to turn this around. What’s their plan? Who runs it? Who makes the decisions? If it’s been average for 20 years now, surely some sort of review needs to be had.
The same argument of juniors paying for SBL is absurd, it’s like the biggest mutant elephant in the room yet we keep supporting it...don’t get it.
That only increases the number of players capable of leaving, it doesn't make the SBL itself better.
At the end of the day, all it comes down to is money. If players can get more money playing elsewhere, they'll leave. Same is true of coaches.
Disagree on this one KR. Players in the league would play at a higher level with better coaching.. whether more leave or not is irrelevant after the fact.But that is, in itself, a money issue. Good coaches are going to go where the money is just as much as good players are.
Here are the top 7 teams (listed in their current ladder order) and their records against the bottom 7 teams...
1. Buccs 5-0
2. Senators 4-0
3. Lightning 6-1
4. Wolves 3-0
5. Hawks 5-0
6. Flames 3-1
7. Giants 4-0
8. Redbacks 1-6
9. Eastern Suns 0-5
10. Tigers 0-5
11. Eagles 0-4
12. Cougars 1-4
13. Magic 0-4
14. Slammers 0-2
So the top-7 teams are 30-2 against the bottom seven. Some other interesting stats....
Easiest schedules so far:
- Lakeside & Slammers
Both have only played two games against top-7 teams. Lakeside are 1-1 in those games and the winless Slammers are obviously 0-2. This does not bode well for the Slammers who now have 12 of their remaining 16 games against a top-7 team.
Only four of their 11 games have been against top-7 teams. They are 0-4 in those games and 4-3 against the bottom seven teams.
Toughest schedules so far:
Seven of their 10 games have been against top-7 teams. They are 4-3 in those games and 3-0 against the bottom seven teams.
Seven of their 11 games have been against top-7 teams. They are 1-6 in those games and 4-0 against the bottom seven teams.
Seven of their 11 games have been against top-7 teams. They are 4-3 in those games and 3-1 against the bottom seven teams.
Billups is up there in scoring 23 ppg, Rhys Vague at 21.5 ppg, Tre Nichols who plays with Billups also up there at 21.2 ppg. All these guys did the exact same thing and less in the SBL. Vague averaged less in the SBL.
Billups, Nichols and the leagues leading scorer Marcel Jones (28ppg) all averaging over 20 ppg and all on the same team.
vigor and isenbarger played on the weekend without much attention
isenbarger who many have touted may not even play this season came into the kalamunda game and hit 3 consectutive 3s within the first few minutes
once lakeside get prue back in the lineup they are a contender
Redhage wouldn't come cheap. Hawks dancing the cap!
Dont think Redbacks 'outa money'. Club seems in sound financial shape.
Maybe Redbacks club choosing not to 'buy' a championship by dancing cap like others this year.
Lets wait to see if Red is given a 'development role' in Hawks to top up $$ outside cap.
If that is true about forde, it's hard to see the Eagles men's program not going the same way as the women's program - huge loss to say the least. They will struggle to stay afloat on and off the court significantly and wouldn't be surprised if they folded or at the very least merge with probably Warwick based on their recent move north to mirrabooka.
I agree the Buccs should make the big dance but their record post 2005 is absolutely horrid on the biggest stage of them all and some of their veterans would want to face those demons head on for them to beat a now star studded Hawks team. Interestingly I had heard Sovine was far from happy with his minutes and playing behind certain players before the Redhage signing, how will losing another four to five minutes from his sixteen minutes per game average affect an already volatile situation. Not all is as happy as it seems in the nest
'Ettridge seen leaving Bendat' Not true, Ben was just booking in for the Wolves to train at Bendat again once a week from next week ahead of their annual chokefest in late August. Wolfpack Basketball currently selling plastic 'caution: choking hazard' signs as necklaces in anticipation of making the grand final but failing short yet again
What has happened to the Magic WSBL?
Oh how the mighty have fallen!
Reported to be "going all in for a title" this year, they improve their lineup from last year with both Palusna and Boag playing together. Now having lost 5 of their last 6 they are languishing around 8th. They looked awful tonight.
How does a lineup with so much offensive scoring talent only 6 points in an entire quarter? The was enroute to a 27 point blowout loss against a team that played the previous night.
Is it the coach? He sure didn't look like he did much tonight, no adjustments at all.
Why would u recruit such a good team and give it to an inexperienced lame coach???
IN RESPONSE TO B.K MANDURAH WSBL.
there are 2 problems with this side this year .
1. coach - seems to be quite arrogant
2. import guard - junkermeir lacks creativity and speed.
something has to break soon for this team to move forward .
watch this space.
congratulations to the east perth women on their break thru victory.
willeton at full strength beat the top ranked wolves the night before and then fall to the eagles the next night WOW
I wonder if the sbl has contacted the betting agencies to see if anyone placed a bet on the eagles.?
important win to the slammers over the flames with garbin back playing for rocko. the bottom to middle part of the 8 is getting tight already.
For the glory. Which is actually quite sad when you think of it, all things considered.
NBA and NBL teams exist to make money.
SBL teams exist purely because "they always have". No WABL kid goes “I want to be an SBL player”, they're looking at college, NBL, hopefully NBA. The SBL certainly isn’t a path to any of these, NBL players come back to play in it and make some money. At the detriment of WABL and domestic player fees.
All for the glory...
I should however say, that some clubs have taken it on themselves to make things work, Wolves, Flames in particular. Commercialising the product and making money from sponsorship. Pity the league isn’t as entrepreneurial.
"For the glory. Which is actually quite sad when you think of it, all things considered."
Agreed. Whilst we all want a competitive league, I believe the main role of the league is to develop players and the game on a state wide level. The success of the sbl is hinged upon how many players make it to the nbl from improving their skills playing sbl.
However this is not the prevailing line of thinking as much as it needs to be.
Players like Nelson from Redbacks getting an NBL contract last season is what really gives the SBL a good name. Few and far between unfortunately.
Interesting that internationally, the SBL is actually considered a development league for imports.
Mandurah magic have pretty much the same team as 2 years ago. so can do very well even without palusna.
" correct "
HOWEVER - have milo 2 years older , boag off a knee re-con ,the import is not even close to the all-star guard they had 2 years ago - name escapes me , they have a totally new coaching staff and playing structure .
anyway in what seems to be an open womens comp Mandurah may have missed their chance again.?
HOWEVER - have milo 2 years older , boag off a knee re-con ,the import is not even close to the all-star guard they had 2 years ago - name escapes me , they have a totally new coaching staff and playing structure .
100% Correct that team 2yrs ago would belt this current team by 20+points!
Import guard is terrible.
oh the armchair experts in full swing here
go and ask any wabl player what they want to do as a player and none of them would say SBL. wrong
you will actually find the opposite. they all dream of playing sbl for their club on the way to playing college or nbl or other higher leagues. many junior wabl players are inspired by their sbl team and its players and aspire to represent their club at the highest level just as those they watched before them.
sbl players play for the love of the game. glory might be a motivator for some. but as we know the sbl isnt the most glorious at times. when your sitting in the locker room in kalgoorlie with the bars on the windows and a bunch of tables and chairs and other random stuff stacked in there you realise pretty quickly your in a stadium store room. Or at Willetton when your under the stage trying to get changed and banging your head on the bottom of the stairs. Or the old days at mandurah when you were in the kindy out by the pools and couldnt breathe from all the chlorine.
its a great league and has character to it. its not all flashy and shiny. it doesnt have the polish or production around it as the NBL1 but its still a high standard of basketball and attracts high level players.
I know one import who played 2 years in the sbl and then two seasons in higher leagues in europe and a season in the NBA G League before retiring. the highest he ever got paid was in the SBL.
Totally agree ^
The ceiling for the vast majority of players in the SBL IS THE SBL. Very few go on to the NBL etc and not everyone even wants that.
Having these good players come back to play in the SBL is great, but its not why most people like the league.
They do that if they are chasing more from their basketball careers sure. And some go and then come back.
OR they hang around the SBL because chasing the highest level of basketball is something that you can do until it comes time to start thinking about a serious career?
All long term stalwarts of the SBL
In all honesty half the clubs do not even promote SBL to their juniors. In fact most of them are taking juniors from other clubs by offering them money etc etc and having them play SBL. How many clubs have their own juniors still playing SBL and getting court time. Many have the mandatory local kids sitting on the bench week in and week out. Winning means nothing except yay we won! SBL costs clubs lots and lots of money and it is the junior WABL players parents and domestic players and parents that keep the SBL turning. That's where most of the money comes from. Years ago players aspired to play SBL for only their local junior club. Not anymore!
Okay, the SBL Allstar game is upon us and both mens teams are full of talent, and every player picked deserved their selection.
But what if the teams were picked according to a statistical rating, in particular a rating system I have used for many years.
You can find it here....
Yes, this rating system is favoured towards the offensive side of the game as opposed to the defensive side, but hey that is what the Allstar game is about.
Using my rating system, the top 16 players from each team (Aussie & World) are:
26.92 - Greg Hire (Flames)
24.33 - Gavin Field (Cougars)
22.46 - Marshall Nelson (Redbacks)
18.76 - Louis Timms (Suns)
18.44 - Liam Hunt (Buccs)
18.33 - Dave Humphries (Giants)
17.90 - Caleb Davis (Senators)
17.07 - Rowan Mackenzie (Lightning)
16.82 - Kyle Armour (Lightning)
16.60 - Jackson Hussey (Tigers)
15.89 - Ryan Smith (Hawks)
15.24 - Jarrad Prue (Lightning)
15.23 - Damien Scott (Tigers)
14.88 - Clint Steindl (Hawks)
14.58 - Ryan Godfrey (Flames)
14.30 - Joel Wagner (Redbacks)
24.15 - Shaun Stewart (Magic)
23.97 - Josh Braun (Suns)
21.46 - Jourdan Demuynck (Redbacks)
21.40 - Jay Bowie (Giants)
21.12 - Earnest Ross (Wolves)
19.11 - Michael Lay (Slammers)
18.97 - Justin King (Senators)
17.93 - Manylok Malek (Giants)
17.88 - Josh Ritchart (Flames)
16.98 - Patrick Burke (Giants)
16.96 - Kevin Davis (Wolves)
16.47 - Marcus Alipate (Buccs)
16.19 - Marvin Smith (Magic)
16.13 - Tyler Livingston (Slammers)
15.46 - Colter Lasher (Buccs)
15.07 - Cameron Williams (Eagles)
- Minimum 7 games played.
- Must still be playing in the league.
So using the above, our Allstar teams would be:
AUSSIE - Starters
C - Louis Timms (Suns)
PF - Gavin Field (Cougars)
SF - Greg Hire (Flames)
SG - Marshall Nelson (Redbacks)
PG - Kyle Armour (Lightning)
AUSSIE - Bench
C - Liam Hunt (Buccs)
C - Jarrad Prue (Lightning)
F - Caleb Davis (Senators)
F - Dave Humphries (Giants)
G - Ryan Smith (Hawks)
G - Rowan Mackenzie (Lightning)
G - Jackson Hussey (Tigers)
WORLD - Starters
C - Manylok Malek (Giants)
PF - Jourdan Demuynck (Redbacks)
SF - Josh Braun (Suns)
SG - Shaun Stewart (Magic)
PG - Michael Lay (Slammers)
WORLD - Bench
C - Kevin Davis (Wolves)
F - Josh Ritchart (Flames)
F - Patrick Burke (Giants)
F - Earnest Ross (Wolves)
G - Jay Bowie (Giants)
G - Justin King (Senators)
G - Marcus Alipate (Buccs)
Who would win this game?
ask any young willetton tigers wabl player or joondalup wolves player if they aspire to play for their SBL club as a senior player. i would put money on the answer being yes.
I have yet to come across a wabl player who says they aspire to play for a different SBL team when they grow up. perhaps there may be a rare occasion where it is the case if they have family history at another club
when players finish their junior ball and realise that their SBL program does not necessarily cater to them transitioning to that level that is generally when they look for opportunities elsewhere. it doesnt mean they dont aspire to play for their sbl team where they grew up playing.
and i think its time to get over the fact that junior wabl funds sbl programs. barring the country teams every other sbl program operates to some degree with this type of model
A few notable omissions from the actual World team that was picked.
The no.1 ranked "World" point guard (Lay) and no.1 ranked "World" centre (Malek) couldn't even make the team of 12. Neither could Jay Bowie who is the 7th-highest ranked player in the league at the moment.
But for the most part they got it right.
Some strange picks in Ellis, White, Wall and Livingston who aren't even in the top 32 players in those rankings.
Re: Magic WSBL.
I think Boag is playing well a she continues to recover from her knee surgery, she is even now one of the best in the league at her position. Milo HAS NOT deteriorated significantly from 2 years ago, any of the such would be marginal. If you don't believe me go to the MARC on any given weekday morning at 6am- fair chance you will find Milo there working on her game. She is the epitome of professionalism and knows how to maintain her game.
Bree has had many horrendous knee injuries and that has taken its toll which is unavoidable.
Junkermeir was touted as a "gun import" around the league prior to arriving and yes, has struggled.
Gilday was great no doubt, however Nici was a true point guard. She has been all her life. A ball handler who could penetrate, create for herself and teammates.
The reason why Junkermier is struggling is because she is a “catch and shoot” wing player who likes to spot up for the open 3. She doesn’t really handle the ball much but is being placed into the position of being a primary ball handler. You cannot tell someone who has played 2/3 all their lives that they are now a point guard. Point guards run the team and require years of training in that position to understand the role. They read tempo, make sure everyone gets the ball, are usually first back on defense and are the most communicative. Point guard is the hardest position to play on a court because they are responsible for all 5 of their teams players.
So who recruited a “catch and shoot” player and told them to handle the ball?
So what is the lowest common denominator in all of this?
Quite simply- the coach. Why would you change the entire offensive structure on a team that was knocking on the door for a championship the last 2 years?
Now there are reasons why a good (and Watts is light years away) coach would do this. These reasons would always revolve around personnel strengths and perhaps weaknesses on the opposition. That’s the coaches job, to articulate a style of play (gamestyle) that serves the players well and is conducive to winning. You see very good coaches doing this at all levels.
These reasons I have given, I believe has nothing to do with Watts’ changes. I honestly believe he has done it to differentiate himself from the excellent coach (coach of the year twice) they had previously to try and prove he knows better. Personnel suitability and adaptability I don’t think even ranked in his thinking.. what little of it occurred outside of the machinations of his oversized ego.
Well he had better wake up and smell the coffee.. because he has differentiated himself from Randy Miguel.. in the direction of the sewer.
You are right when you say they lose to 2017 WSBL magic by 20+. But even if Nici Gilday was here she wouldn’t be playing anywhere near her ability or potential because of that coach.
Worse still is that he is juiced into the position- he is a mate of the board so he is untouchable.
I will make a prediction. The WSBL magic have been a staple of consistent winning for years now, always making it deep into playoffs if not grand finals. If Watts stays there another 2 seasons he will completely destroy this team and have them wooden spoon contenders in no time and he will blame the players for it.. you heard it here first!!
To the person who used the plural "armchair experts" I never stated wabl kids don't want to play sbl. Of course they do. And of course they may have other ambitions also. There was one poster who stated this but I didn’t agree with that assertion.
When I used the word “glory” I was not referring to players. Of course the players will compete hard every night and want to win, you will notice I stated “Whilst we all want a competitive league..” I have no beef with the players and the great players you mention and others you haven’t currently and through past times have all made invaluable contributions to the game in this state. I was referring to club administrators and most of the coaches. They are the ones who overemphasis winning at the cost of developing and growing the game a well as the players to be better.
Players play period. They don’t administer the game do they. And nor should they, their job is hard enough as it is. And I have seen the jail bars in Kal, smashed my head in change room at Willetton and almost died of chlorine poisoning in Mandurah in past years. So as a previous fellow participant I state this.
To develop the game doesn’t mean everyone has to be in it for wanting to become pros. It means the product being the game itself would be better. That benefits everyone. Every great player I knew enjoyed the challenge of matching up against great opposing players. It lifts everything up.
And someone even said those so minded players desiring to become professional go to NCAA.. and that right there is my exact point!! Don’t you think if we were a bit more like Europe and kept our best talent and developed that within our own league, the sbl would become even better than it already is?
Put it this way, example Luka Doncic- didn’t play NCAA but played local in Slovenian National league (our equivalent would be sbl), Adria League and the Euroleague as a 16 and 17yo. If he was a West Australian he would be playing NCAA and guys like you wouldn’t even care that he was never really in the SBL or NBL. We need to become more development oriented so our leagues become even better than they already are... again not a crack at the players!
And wouldn’t you as a player (I assume) want to tell you grandkids that you matched up on Doncic and gave him 25?
"I know one import who played 2 years in the sbl and then two seasons in higher leagues in europe and a season in the NBA G League before retiring. the highest he ever got paid was in the SBL."
So why didn't he return to SBL rather than playing in the “higher” leagues as you put it, given the money is better?
So essentially you agree, we are a development league for imports.
This is not a term I coined- speak to any player agent of an import you know, it’s what they say.
We need to aim higher than that, imports are great but we need to be a development league for Australians rather than imports. Imports in Europe are used to play a role rather than be “the man”. Doesn’t mean SBL veterans don’t have a spot in the league either, in fact playing against grown men with 10 years of feistiness and experience behind them is a great way for the talented younger ones to develop their games and develop hardness. Just look at the European leagues, believe it or not there are plenty of players over 30 who have played their whole careers in the same league.
JR what you are saying is all well and good but what actually constitutes a "development league" in your books? Is it purely just number of local players who go on to play professionally? If so, surely development and winning (or "glory" as you say) have the exact same incentives - i.e. if I can develop the players on my roster to be better, the better chance we have to win?
I'm curious to know (a) what you think the league/coaches/admin are doing wrong and (b) what you would do to change it?
Interesting rankings system Lukosius- not sure if I agree 100% on the weightings but overall a decent indicator.
I wouldn't doc -0.5 for a foul - this is really just penalising players who play defence - the better players you defend, more active you are on help, more you are there protecting the rim, the more fouls you are going to get. If you are sitting on the wing guarding a non-threat, you're not going to get many fouls.
A certain element of developing your juniors is the willingness to tolerate sustained periods where the juniors are allowed to play through their mistakes. Teams that are consistently at the top of the table e.g. Wolves, they don't have many juniors coming through the ranks and it has lead to them having many strong seasons in a row. Not to say they haven't had some good young players, Ironmonger and Wellstead etc. But bringing in guys before they are ready is hard to do when you have the option of playing already proven guys.
Much easier for those clubs who have little choice, Slammers, Giants, Magic etc.
2773 - Troy Clarke (512 games)
2723 - Joel Wagner (349 games)
2414 - Shamus Ballantyne (367 games)
2087 - Joe-Alan Tupaea (467 games)
1836 - Craig Jackson (260 games)
1672 - Dan Hunt (382 games)
1656 - Andrew Bowman (356 games)
1579 - Greg Brown (450 games)
1568 - Calvin Earl (273 games)
1567 - Alan Erickson (385 games)
1562 - Leon Williamson (366 games)
1539 - Vince Kelley (351 games)
1312 - Ben Purser (310 games)
1264 - Wade Bennett (263 games)
1258 - Greg Regan (261 games)
1243 - Daniel Thomas (265 games)
1243 - Brian Fundingsland (155 games)
1204 - Ryan Hulme (376 games)
1192 - Elliott Bruton (255 games)
1151 - Grant Davey (338 games)
Stats as of today.
there were some other really good point guards that must have played less games not to be in this list. do you have alan black , mike ellis, mike Farrell, nick lakovic, ryan souflious or is there any other notable pgs we have forgotton that have a good ave?
Earlier this year
Good call on checking players that may have played less games but have good averages etc
The list includes some really good players, but also some that were quite average but managed to play a lot of games.
Re-ordering the list by average shows a different view of this list.
The callouts for me are:
-How good Wagner has been over such a long time.
- Doc Earl and to a lesser extent, CJ, being so high on list considering they weren't tradition PGs
- Dan and Al being so high on list when they were more PF/C (how many of those assists were to each other??)
1243 - Brian Fundingsland (155 games) - 8.02
2723 - Joel Wagner (349 games) - 7.8
1836 - Craig Jackson (260 games) - 7.06
2414 - Shamus Ballantyne (367 games) - 6.58
1568 - Calvin Earl (273 games) - 5.74
2773 - Troy Clarke (512 games) - 5.41
1258 - Greg Regan (261 games) - 4.82
1264 - Wade Bennett (263 games) - 4.81
1243 - Daniel Thomas (265 games) - 4.69
1192 - Elliott Bruton (255 games) - 4.67
1656 - Andrew Bowman (356 games) - 4.65
2087 - Joe-Alan Tupaea (467 games) - 4.47
1539 - Vince Kelley (351 games) - 4.38
1672 - Dan Hunt (382 games) - 4.38
1562 - Leon Williamson (366 games) - 4.28
1312 - Ben Purser (310 games) - 4.23
1567 - Alan Erickson (385 games) - 4.07
1579 - Greg Brown (450 games) - 3.51
1151 - Grant Davey (338 games) - 3.41
1204 - Ryan Hulme (376 games) - 3.20
I think Wags probably averaged under 10pts a game over his career (could be wrong) but he was never really an offensive threat.
Blenerhasset and Ballaytyne were dangerous on all fronts.
Those are the 2 guys you actually lost sleep over.
I don't think Wagner really gave coaches nightmares.
No one was writing his name 1st on the white board, I think that is the main difference.
Don't get me wrong he is a fantastic player and has been very durable and great contributor over the years, but he wouldn't be top 5 PG not even close.
Earlier this year
Depends what you have around him.
He was perfect for the Redbacks team that had Redhage, Smith, Roberts, Nelson, Vigor etc
and I would prefer Wags in this team then any of the other mentioned players as he is a true pass first PG.
As comparison, put Armour in that team and you would have had chemistry issues (not bagging Armour but his natural game just would not have suited that team)
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An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 11:25 pm, Sun 15 Sep 2019 | Posts: 789,816 | Last 7 days: 1,852